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Hornby 2-Hal with correct trailer pickup bogie


Guest maxthemapman

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Guest maxthemapman

Sorry if here is the wrong place to post, but this seemed a bit too esoteric for the Hornby page, for diehard Southern Electric fans only.

 

Looking at the box photos for the forthcoming 2-Hal (yes, yes, yes!) looks to me as though they have now tooled a correct pickup bogie for the trailer coach. Do others agree? Wonder whether it will be possible to get spares. However, from the photos, looks like the new Bils won't be retro-fitted, unless these are pre-production units photographed.

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The shoebeam still looks far too large compared to the official 2-HAL photo in the Southern Electric book. A fault I think the 2-BIL shares as well - not seen the motor bogies on the 5-BEL. But then again this is my personal opinion; I applaud Hornby's commitment to those of us who have an affection for all things that pickup power from the third rail. My attitude towards Hornby has softened somewhat - I am rather tempted to dip my toe into purchasing one of these units something I wouldn't dare contemplate after seeing the 4-VEP for the first time & hearing the horror stories about it not being able to drag itself around layouts. 

We shall see. 

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I do agree it does look like the trailer coach pick up bogie is indeed a new tooling.

It would be worth bearing in mind that the livery images for the 2 Bil are the usual computer generated images as originally used so you can not work out from them if the new issue 2 Bil's will be so fitted. I will see what I can find out once the froth has died down.

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Sorry if here is the wrong place to post, but this seemed a bit too esoteric for the Hornby page, for diehard Southern Electric fans only.

 

Looking at the box photos for the forthcoming 2-Hal (yes, yes, yes!) looks to me as though they have now tooled a correct pickup bogie for the trailer coach. Do others agree? Wonder whether it will be possible to get spares. However, from the photos, looks like the new Bils won't be retro-fitted, unless these are pre-production units photographed.

Hi Max,

 

We might be in a small minority who care about such things, but that is most definitely the correct pick-up bogie on the trailer coach: shallower side frames: brakes rigging between the wheels; correctly positioned step boards etc.. I am sure that before long these bogies will appear as spare parts, which would mean the 2 BILs that have already been sold could have their incorrect bogies replaced for a few pounds. Fingers crossed that Hornby provides new 2 BILs with these bogies on their trailer coaches too.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

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Guest maxthemapman

Some opinions on the Hornby thread that 4 coach MUs and greater are a bit of a gamble in terms of sales. Activities of Bachmann/Kernow seem to bear this out. From the point of view of the Hornby basic underframe this gives us 2Nol, Tin Hal, Bulleid 2EPB and 2Hap. Not complaining, but a pity. I am buying every single green EMU set produced by all manufacturers (plus brown/cream ones) so I am doing my bit to encourage them!

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Nice to see the 2-HAL following the 2-Bil.  2-BIL+ 2-HAL combinations were quite common.  What permutations are possible from the 2-HAL?

 

A quick scan through my Southern Electric picture books reveals that prior to the Kent Coast electrification in the mid-late 50s, one would tend to find Hals on ex-SECR routes in Kent and Bils on ex-LBSC and LSWR services in Sussex and Surrey - their initial introduction areas. After that point, they became more common-user in the latter areas, presumably after the mass-introduction of Haps as part of the Kent electrifications. Bils and Hals were very similar in terms of power and seating capacity (including 1st/2nd seating ratio) so it would be a case of 'we want 8 cars for this service, round up four 2-car units from the sidings', which could give you any combination from 4x 2Bil to 4x Hal with every mixed combination between. As there were 152 Bils and 99 Hals (plus 2700 which was only in service for a relatively short period), in a mixed rake chance would be there would be more Bils than Hals, in most cases.

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Apparently (Marsden, C., Southern Electric Multiple-Units) when displaced from the Maidstone route many moved to the Portsmouth-Brighton route, where they ran with BILs. There's a 1957 picture of one at Fratton, and a 1959 photo of 2HAL+2BIL running on a Waterloo-Reading service. 

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Nice to see the 2-HAL following the 2-Bil.  2-BIL+ 2-HAL combinations were quite common.  What permutations are possible from the 2-HAL?

 

Hybrid 2BIL/HAL units also were formed following losses of 2BIL coaches in WW2 http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/features/historical-features/fleet_hal.html This would make another interesting option maybe Hornby might even produce one in the future?

 

Nigel

 

 

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Apparently (Marsden, C., Southern Electric Multiple-Units) when displaced from the Maidstone route many moved to the Portsmouth-Brighton route, where they ran with BILs. There's a 1957 picture of one at Fratton, and a 1959 photo of 2HAL+2BIL running on a Waterloo-Reading service. 

The HALs were originally built for the Victoria - Maidstone East/Gillingham service which started in 1939, with trains dividing at the newly-reconstructed station at Swanley. BILs never made it to Kent, so Hornby have opened up new routes for those seeking to follow history.

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Hi Max,

 

We might be in a small minority who care about such things, but that is most definitely the correct pick-up bogie on the trailer coach: shallower side frames: brakes rigging between the wheels; correctly positioned step boards etc.. I am sure that before long these bogies will appear as spare parts, which would mean the 2 BILs that have already been sold could have their incorrect bogies replaced for a few pounds. Fingers crossed that Hornby provides new 2 BILs with these bogies on their trailer coaches too.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

I can confirm as per my blog post here that I have been in contact with Simon Kohler at Hornby and he has confirmed the new tooling for the trailer car pick up bogies and also that it will indeed be used on all future 2 Bil releases as well.

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I can confirm as per my blog post here that I have been in contact with Simon Kohler at Hornby and he has confirmed the new tooling for the trailer car pick up bogies and also that it will indeed be used on all future 2 Bil releases as well.

Excellent.

 

See, I predicted the future.

 

Look: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65633-Hornby-2-bil/?p=1062437

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So how can I get replacements for the 4 2Bils I've got already?

I'm sure Graham is right and the spares will appear - although there will be quite a few of the cognoscenti keen to get hold of them. If you are running an 8-BIL then that is a really super sort of formation that some layout-owners can only dream of. Having the space helps.....

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Some opinions on the Hornby thread that 4 coach MUs and greater are a bit of a gamble in terms of sales. Activities of Bachmann/Kernow seem to bear this out. From the point of view of the Hornby basic underframe this gives us 2Nol, Tin Hal, Bulleid 2EPB and 2Hap. Not complaining, but a pity. I am buying every single green EMU set produced by all manufacturers (plus brown/cream ones) so I am doing my bit to encourage them!

 

This is clearly true to a point. However, although I remain a steam enthusiast, the 2BIL in Maunsell livery was too good to miss. I can foresee a 2HAL joining it, and a 2NOL if one should become available. What would be a particularly painful choice would be between a tasty new ex-LSWR steam model (such as an S11, H15 or 0395) and a 4COR or 3SUB even.

 

2014 is already loaded with (for me) temptation. The second version of Bachmann's Wainwright C is forecast for the summer. I have no inside information but I can foresee the Kernow O2 before the end of 2014, and the Gate Stock coaches close behind. It looks very much as if the Black Motor 0-6-0 will rub shoulders with the Wainwright 0-6-0, and they are all competition for the tastiest of EMUs.

 

PB

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Nice to see the 2-HAL following the 2-Bil.  2-BIL+ 2-HAL combinations were quite common.  What permutations are possible from the 2-HAL?

 

 

As others have noted this can depend on your era.  Bils and Hals never met in normal service until the late 1950s when the latter began to drift west from their intended home on the Kent outer suburban runs having been displaced by 2Hap units.  Of interest here is the SR type code where 2Hal stands for a 2-car unit in which half the cars have lavatories (i.e 2-Half-Lavatory) which were replaced by electro-pneumatic braked half-lavatory units classified 2Hap (Half Lavatory Pneumatic).

 

The Hals then joined the Bils (2-car Bi-Lavatory as both cars had such facilities) on Central Division stopping services and rapidly became used as interchangeable 2-car units.  Any combination could and did occur with the service only specifying the number of coaches the train required.  "8Bil" in an official document for instance meant an 8-car train (4 units) which could be formed from any combination of Bil and Hal units unless specifically stated otherwise.

 

It became normal for the coastal routes to have 4-car trains worked with one of each or a pair of Bils; pairs of Hals were less common though only because of their fewer number and such workings were probably seen most days.  

 

The later "tin Hal" units were also fully interchangeable.

 

In winter specific trains were diagrammed to include a 1925-type de-icing unit coupled to the rear so these - in their brighter shade of departmental green - could be run with Bil and Hal units but would need to be scratch built.

 

Bil and Hal units also worked in multiple with 4Lav (4-car unit with a Lavatory - just one, confusingly enough, when other type codes are considered) units at times usually on London - Brighton stoppers but when Lav units made their occasional forays along the coast there was sometimes a Bil or Hal coupled to make up a 6-car train which was the longest normally run and the longest the smaller stations west of Worthing could accommodate.  

 

It was also possible for a Hal (and a Bil) to run in multiple with a 4Sub as indeed was the case on numerous occasions in preservation when 2090 and 4732 ran charters.  Such workings in service would have been rare as their territories didn't overlap though anything and everything was thrown at Brighton for Bank Holiday extras in the 1950s.

 

Hal units could couple and run with main line stock of the era (Cor, Buf, Gri, Res, Pul, Pan) but was not able to do so in normal service due to electrical complications.

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All this leads to that most interesting question, what single unit would open up the most options in terms of a Southern Electric layout (DEMUs included)?

 

I would want to be strict here, so I am looking for a unit that would permit area-x to me modelled such that every unit that would visit area-x under normal operating conditions needs to be available rtr.

 

My suspicions is that the answer is 4Cor, permitting much of West Sussex and Hampshire (but what about DEMUs?). The trouble with Haps, Subs, and EPBs is that both Bulleid and BR designs would be needed.

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The last batch of 2-HAL units built pre-war by the SR were intended to strengthen trains on the Waterloo-Reading line, they would have worked with both 2-BIL and 2-NOL units there.

 

It wasn't that unusual to see a Bulleid-style 4-SUB working south coastway services both east and (less frequently) west of Brighton instead of the rostered 2x2-BIL or 4-LAV units, despite the lack of both lavatories and first class. I first noted such a working in 1954 but I imagine that they may well have occurred from when the 4-SUBs were first built.

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The DEMUs were rather late on the scene. The Hampshire (2/3H) and Hastings (6L/S/B) units appeared in 1957, being joined by the Oxted (3D) units in the early '60s.

 

The COR/BUF/RES units (and later GRIs) were very visible by virtue of serving both Waterloo LSWR and Victoria LBSC routes to Portsmouth, so passed more London stations than other pre-war units, perhaps, but they also represent a sort of second generation of Southern Railway EMU, moving on from the PUL/PAN/BEL main line units and the LAV and BIL secondary service stock. Thus the fact that we already have the CORs' spiritual replacement, the CEP, is making their absence less obvious. I would love a COR, having adored them in my early youth, when Mum might occasionally take me to Victoria on one.

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All this leads to that most interesting question, what single unit would open up the most options in terms of a Southern Electric layout (DEMUs included)?

 

I would want to be strict here, so I am looking for a unit that would permit area-x to me modelled such that every unit that would visit area-x under normal operating conditions needs to be available rtr.

 

My suspicions is that the answer is 4Cor, permitting much of West Sussex and Hampshire (but what about DEMUs?). The trouble with Haps, Subs, and EPBs is that both Bulleid and BR designs would be needed.

 

Loathed by commuters and criticised, in general, by modellers I'm afraid the probable candidate is the 4Vep.

 

Few if any other types operated for so long over so wide an area.  Introduced on Waterloo - Basingstoke (and eventually Bournemouth) stoppers they spread their wings from the first 20 units to become a fleet of almost 200 near-identical units which could be found almost anywhere from Margate to Weymouth.

 

Ostensibly conceived as an outer suburban unit they became common fare on even the more prestigious of runs such as Victoria - Brighton fasts though spent much more of their lives stopping at all or most stations along the lines served.  They took over from DEMU stock when East Grinstead was electrified and have had timetabled trips over many suburban routes at times.

 

If we are talking "Southern Electric" as in Southern Railway and as subtly distinct from "Southern electric" then arguably the Cor but with far fewer main line routes to choose from back in the day a suburban type might be more appropriate.

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But few places would have been so unfortunate to have been served by Vep units alone. For the Brighton lines, Cigs would also have been needed, and Reps for the Bournemouth line.

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How strict do you wish to be?  Many main line routes saw Veps mixed with other types just as in earlier days the Portsmouth and Mid-Sussex routes and later the Brighton and coastal lines saw Cor stock mingling with Bil, Hal, Lav and other types.

 

 

every unit that would visit area-x under normal operating conditions needs to be available rtr.

 

 

It's hard to find any line which exactly meets this specification.  Quite a few saw regular trains formed of only one type but those - such as 4EPB - are not available in RTR.  Even the quiet backwater of Addiscombe which could nominally be worked entirely by 2EPB units saw 4EPB sets regularly.

 

The Kent Coast routes which were worked largely by Cep units and with the occasional MLV on a boat train also had Bep units (not available rtr) in faster trains for many years.  Most routes also saw peak-time workings including Hap stock (again not available rtr).

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1939-57, the HALs would have had sole use of the sections Swanley - Rochester (both locations exclusive as other EMUs served them using diverging routes) and Otford (exclusive) - Maidstone East. Lots of steam workings needed in those days, though.

 

BILs and later HALs would have had pretty much exclusive use of the line beyond Pirbright Junction to Alton, I think, including via Bagshot to Ascot. At Alton much steam "over the alps" prior to 1957, then 3Hs.

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