Storm damage to Cambrian Coast Line

[Kenton]

 

If like me you think that fairness is best expressed "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" then you won't have a problem with that.

Although you are of course entitled to your own definition of fairness - it most certainly isn't mine.

 

The problem I see with Wales (and yes it is a terrible generalisation not true in the case of all, applying also to much of "the north" and Scotland and probably to a lesser extent everywhere) is that once upon a time the average welsh worker was hard working now far too many have the attitude that they should have a job given to them often at a standard above that to which they deserve. The days of when the hard grafting miner and steel worker gained respect of all disappeared in the 70-80s. That reputation is difficult to overcome and is not helped by the nationalism and way-left of centre strong bias of its populace.

 

 

Travel Wales (and no doubt Scotland) and you'll find the population are not all the rabid nationalists the Daily Mail would have you believe.

 

Mrs K's family nearly all live in Scotland and according to straw poll and discussion with them will all be voting for independence like many of their friends. I would describe their political leaning as slightly left of centre and most are professional and degree educated. I wouldn't describe them as nationalists in the same way as Welsh nationalism (speak their own language, burn houses owned by "outsiders", generally unfriendly attitude to outsiders)

 

I think it will be an interesting vote in September.

 

 

It appears that bus services except those in large city's have been suffering massive cuts over the last few years

I think the cities are suffering as well, I wonder how much of that is down to non-paying pensioners (bus pass) - if the bus companies cannot afford to run a bus service (fares too low) then it ceases to be justified. That is unless it becomes a social service made free to all paid by increasing tax on everyone. There is no useful public transport around here, you either drive, pay for a taxi or walk.

[br2975]

. I wouldn't describe them as nationalists in the same way as Welsh nationalism (speak their own language, burn houses owned by "outsiders", generally unfriendly attitude to outsiders)

 

 

 

There is a misconception about the Welsh - that they allegedly speak English until a stranger walks into the pub or shop, then they resort to Welsh.

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Firstly, there are a number of English words used in Welsh conversation, because there is no Welsh equivalent, so we stole them (just like English has stolen words from Latin, Greek, Hindi, Sanskrit etc) .... so a non-Welsh speaker could hear a Welsh / English conversation and think it had changed as they entered.

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I have always said to the large number of English visitors to Wales who claim this happened to them   ...... when you get back to Essex, and you're on the way to work and you call into Mr Patel's corner shop for 'The Sun' do you complain if he's talking to his wife in Hindi ? When you buy your sandwich in Subway at lunchtime, do you complain because the staff are talking to each other in Kurdish ? When you buy your takeaway on the way home from the pub do you complain because the chef and the staff talk to each other in Cantonese ? ................... all this in your England, so why go to Wales and complain that the locals speak their native tongue in their own country ?

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As for  Meibion Glyndwr and the burning of English owned cottages, it's a bit rich when Englishmen were torching parts of London last year, and Bristol in a dispute over Tesco stores.

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And I'm not even a nationalist !

 

Brian R

[Oldddudders]

ISTR this thread is supposed to be about recent storm damage to railway lines. "Knocking" the Celtic nations adds no value to the debate whatsoever. There are places to debate race, religion and politics, and RMweb isn't designated as one of them.

[The Stationmaster]

There is a misconception about the Welsh - that they allegedly speak English until a stranger walks into the pub or shop, then they resort to Welsh.

.

Firstly, there are a number of English words used in Welsh conversation, because there is no Welsh equivalent, so we stole them (just like English has stolen words from Latin, Greek, Hindi, Sanskrit etc) .... so a non-Welsh speaker could hear a Welsh / English conversation and think it had changed as they entered.

.

 

Brian R

 

I remember just over 40 years ago after attending a Signal Sighting Meeting somewhere around Abercynon we duly adjourned to the pub up at Llanwonno, the Brynffynon (although I'm not sure if it had that name then and the interior has definitely changed a lot judging by their website).  Anyway when we entered the conversation either switched to or had been going on in Welsh and it remained that way as we sat down - until one of our number made his way to the bar and ordered our drinks, in Welsh, at which point everybody started talking in English.

 

Some years later a colleague and his wife were on a self-catering holiday near Dolgellau and went into town to do their shopping - very much a Welsh speaking area of course but when they went into a shop the woman behind the counter and the sole customer were speaking English.  However the customer asked for eggs and the conversation promptly switched to Welsh, after she had been served and left Graham asked, in Welsh, to have eggs from the same basket as the customer who had just left because he also wanted the freshest ones and not the ones in the other basket; apparently the lady behind the counter was rather shocked.

 

So yes Brian it does go on - or it did (and maybe it still does) - but I have always found that even if it all goes Welsh when you enter it fairly soon starts to switch back, but it could be great fun using my limited Welsh vocabulary sometimes.  Mind you in the 'Custom House' in Cardiff I doubt if any of them could speak a word of Welsh - 'basic prison' was about the limit for some of them and i learnt quite a lot about various backgrounds when I took a chap from the Prison Service in there for a drink one night, he was frightened stiff.

[wombatofludham]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/repairs-start-cambrian-coast-railway-6490832

 

Repairs have started, but the line could be closed for months, which is causing big problems for the local schools and population as a whole as the journey from Fairbourne to Barmouth now takes over 40 minutes by road compared to 7 minutes by train.

 

 

PS I'm learning Welsh and I have to remind local Welsh speakers to speak Welsh to me as they often revert to English, so whatever happened in the past it's not like that now, it's a myth.  Let's not forget the only part of the UK where English is legally an official language is in Wales where both languages are constitutionally afforded equal status, unless Scotland have adopted their proposed language measure, giving Scots Gaelic and English equal status of course.

 

But as others have said, this thread is about the Cambrian line not languages.

[Tim V]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/repairs-start-cambrian-coast-railway-6490832

 

Repairs have started, but the line could be closed for months, which is causing big problems for the local schools and population as a whole as the journey from Fairbourne to Barmouth now takes over 40 minutes by road compared to 7 minutes by train.

Isn't it a mile on foot?

[Neil]

Isn't it a mile on foot?

 

It's 3.4 miles on foot according to google.

[wombatofludham]

Isn't it a mile on foot?

If you can walk on water from Penrhryn Point.  It's about a mile and a half into the town centre if you walk across Barmouth Bridge from Morfa Mawddach, but it's about a mile and a half across the marshes from Fairbourne, so is not a practical proposition for the mostly retired population of the village. In the summer there is a ferry across the Mawddach from Penrhryn Point but by then we would hope the railway is back up and running.

 

The train from Fairbourne to Barmouth is well used by the locals to access the shops and doctors in the town.  The alternative bus to Dolgellau has been cut back due to funding constraints and although at the moment we have a temporary experimental late service, I doubt it will last now Arriva have pulled out of the area and need longer term replacement services funding, so for elderly residents who can't drive for health or financial reasons, the train is essential.  I have heard some school pupils who normally take the train from Barmouth to Harlech are now switching school to Dolgellau, such is the level of disruption - a ten minute train ride has been replaced by a bus taking considerably longer, which could put Harlech school at risk.  A lot of people who don't know the area don't realise just how long it takes to get around the Cambrian coast, or even to go inland.  You've either got estuaries to cross, or mountains to drive round, and if a road is closed due to accidents there are often no practical alternative routes in the vicinity.  The train, slow as it is in places, is often considerably quicker than driving.  Fortunately the Welsh Assembly realise this and are committed to the route.

 

That said it does annoy former colleagues of mine who work for Centro and who have been trying for years to get funding for rail expansion in the Midlands that I have a better train service to Birmingham New St and International than Dudley, Brownhills or Aldridge!

 

 

[Kenton]

 

when you get back to Essex............. all this in your England, so why go to Wales and complain that the locals speak their native tongue in their own country ?

.

And I'm not even a nationalist !

 

I can't speak for the folk of Essex as I'm not from there. Neither do I read the Sun or any such rag. But I am of the opinion that Wales and Scotland form part of the same country with a common language and everyone in that country should speak the language in public. That means everyone. I also believe that if I emigrated to another country that did not have English as a primary language that I should be forced to learn and speak their language.

 

The problem is that I find it difficult to see how someone can claim that they are a separate country with a separate language cannot describe themself as a nationalist?

[wombatofludham]

Mi ddylen ni ysgrifennu yn Cymraeg pan dan ni'n sgwrsio am ein cymdogion dros y Clawdd Offa.  Maen nhw'n meddwl dan ni'n defnyddio Cymraeg dim ond i siarad amdanyn nhw, felly rhoi iddyn nhw rhywbeth i gwyno amdano.

 

Anyway, for those with access to Facebook, the LoveTywyn page has a lot more photos of the track damage, plus other unusual sights, such as wartime tyre tracks which have lain preserved in peat for the past 70 years until exposed in the recent storms.  Incidentally, the storms also took out some of the old wartime tank traps on Fairbourne sea wall and completely destroyed a WW2 pillbox which presumably was built to withstand some blast damage, so it's fair to say the seas were probably higher than they have been in over 70 years.

 

LoveTywyn Facebook page is at https://www.facebook.com/LoveTywyn

[br2975]

.

 

So yes Brian it does go on - or it did (and maybe it still does) - but I have always found that even if it all goes Welsh when you enter it fairly soon starts to switch back, but it could be great fun using my limited Welsh vocabulary sometimes.  Mind you in the 'Custom House' in Cardiff I doubt if any of them could speak a word of Welsh - 'basic prison' was about the limit for some of them and i learnt quite a lot about various backgrounds when I took a chap from the Prison Service in there for a drink one night, he was frightened stiff.

 

Mike - I know it goes on, and I don't condone it, one doesn't need to travel to rural Wales, it happens down the road from me in Pontcanna (Cardiff).

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There is  even a popular pub in Pontcanna, Kairdiff, called 'The Cayo Arms' - named for Julian Cayo Evans, you imagine opening a pub called 'The Martin McGuinness' ?

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There is an apparent rift in Wales between some members of 'the Taffia' and' the Wenglish', and in the eyes of some of my 'fellow countrymen'  the lowest of the low are monoglot South Walians, not those from the other side of Offa's Dyke.

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If I'd been a Welsh speaking, former Welsh international rugby player I'd probably be controller of BBC Wales by now !

 

Anyway enough of all this - I have modelling to do, more enjoyable.

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Brian R (aka 'The Devils Advocate')

[Pete 75C]

Can that please be an end to it now...?

I haven't even travelled over the line since I was a child but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in the schedule and progress of repairs. That's why I'm following the thread.

What I'm not interested in is politics on a railway modelling forum.

Everyone has an opinion and that's as it should be but please take Ian's advice a few posts up and leave it alone now?

[RJS1977]

I was thinking of the liquid sort!!

 

http://www.sabrain.com/

 

I thought you meant him:

 

 

Though back on topic, if the main line between Fairbourne & Barmouth is closed, I wonder if the Fairbourne Railway & ferry might be able to step in. (I know they have before when Barmouth Bridge has been closed).

 

I wonder what effect the line closure will have on the Great Little Trains in terms of reduced passenger numbers? Certainly in my own case this means I won't be doing my "Grand Tour" this year.... 

[Xerces Fobe2]

I think rather than just a replacing what has been damaged a more pragmatic approach is required, otherwise we could well see the same issue in future years.

 

XF

[marc smith]

I think rather than just a replacing what has been damaged a more pragmatic approach is required, otherwise we could well see the same issue in future years.

 

XF

I'm sure we will indeed see similar scenes in future

With rising sea levels there are many coastal railway lines which will need major works to protect them

the line to Penzance being a prime example.....

[roundhouse]

There's been flooding in Surrey and Sussex this morning shutting the Tonbridge to Redhill line plus flooding at Balcombe in Sussex shutting the Brighton mainline and due to roads flooding its difficult to run replacement buses so Southern are advising people to go by train via Barnham or Hastings, so its not just coastal areas being affected by all this bad weather although no doubt trains will be running again later today.

[John_Hughes]

 I can't speak for the folk of Essex as I'm not from there. Neither do I read the Sun or any such rag. But I am of the opinion that Wales and Scotland form part of the same country with a common language and everyone in that country should speak the language in public. That means everyone. I also believe that if I emigrated to another country that did not have English as a primary language that I should be forced to learn and speak their language.

 

The problem is that I find it difficult to see how someone can claim that they are a separate country with a separate language cannot describe themself as a nationalist?

 

A single language spoken in public? Great idea - let's pick one of these islands' several vernacular languages and make everyone use it. Let's see, that would include Scots Gaelic, Erse, Manx, Welsh, English, Lallans - take your pick - and you can add Cornish if you want too.

 

The only rule is, it mustn't be the one you learned at your mother's knee, that's too easy!

[Pete 75C]

Is there a smiley for banging your head against a brick wall...???

 

Edit: Oh, apparently there is... Nice one.

[Neil]

Is there a smiley for banging your head against a brick wall...???

 

Edit: Oh, apparently there is... Nice one.

 

I rather think your ire should be directed at Kenton who approached the topic with a pointy stick. It's not unreasonable that those tired by the repetition of lazy, unfair and unthinking stereotyping would wish to rebut his statements.

 

On a more positive note it may be that the section of the coast line to Tywyn could re-open fairly quickly as I believe that the majority of the damage occurred north of Tywyn. I'd also urge potential visitors without cars not to be put off by the temporary lack of a train service as there are reasonable bus services out of Machynlleth.

[Pete 75C]

On a more positive note it may be that the section of the coast line to Tywyn could re-open fairly quickly as I believe that the majority of the damage occurred north of Tywyn. I'd also urge potential visitors without cars not to be put off by the temporary lack of a train service as there are reasonable bus services out of Machynlleth.

 

Probably, Neil, but if everybody bites, the topic will cease to be a useful source of info regarding the storm damage. The informative/useful icon thingy is directed at your 2nd paragraph (above). I do wonder if there is any hope of restoring a service (of sorts) in time for Spring, given the severity of the damage.

[roundhouse]

I ma sure that we will still make use of thew Cambrian main line at least to Aberystwyth but doing buses over any long journey just are not enjoyable to us.

 

We might make it to Penhelig, as there's a rather nice hotel there.

[The Stationmaster]

Probably, Neil, but if everybody bites, the topic will cease to be a useful source of info regarding the storm damage. The informative/useful icon thingy is directed at your 2nd paragraph (above). I do wonder if there is any hope of restoring a service (of sorts) in time for Spring, given the severity of the damage.

 

What does seem to be rather sparse is real information on some of the damage.  The situation immediately north of Towyn has been well illustrated and apart from getting some large rocks back into the coastal protection area does not look to be a big job provided there is rail access and enough men and plant can be set to work on it - definitely more a matter of weeks than months from what can be seen so far.  Rebuilding damaged formation isn't exactly a difficult task provided you get the track out and then get the material and plant in, even if the landward side has to be strengthenedt

 

But what is the situation further north - what has happened at Barmouth or in that vicinity which is causing talk of months rather than weeks - and indeed what is there south of Towyn which might prevent access to that site?

[Oldddudders]

If FR services are running, then arriving at Porthmadog via Llandudno Junction and Blaenau is a possibility. I did this in reverse the morning after my Welsh Highland day, continuing to Nottingham for the overnight chez mon frère. Perhaps the FR/WHR folk might look into extra demand for this sort of service to keep passenger numbers up while the Cambrian Coast line and the bridge at Penrhyn are being restored.

[Neil]

.... But what is the situation further north - what has happened at Barmouth or in that vicinity which is causing talk of months rather than weeks - and indeed what is there south of Towyn which might prevent access to that site?

 

I believe the major problem is Pont Briwet, or rather the knock on effects of building its replacement. I've been told that there have been all sorts of unforeseen problems resulting from the narrowing of the channel by the contractors temporary works on site. It seems that the narrowing increased the speed the water flows and that increase of speed has caused scouring round the uprights of the bridge. Local info also has it that the same increase in speed caused problems for the pylon in the Dwyryd estuary. This of course all happened well before the recent storms, and was the reason that all trains heading north along the coast line were terminated at Harlech, until the line closure caused by the breach between Tywyn and Tonfanau.

[wombatofludham]

Apparently north of Barmouth the line has been undermined by the collapse of the sea wall on which it runs, so whereas Tywyn should be relatively straightforward, with a parallel road for easy access and relatively speaking simpler task of rebuilding the ballast and relaying track, at Llanaber they've first got to rebuild a defensive sea wall, from the beach as there is no road access, then rebuild the track on top, a more complicated set of works. On top of that, next month will see the highest ever recorded sprimg tides which, if we get another relatively active low (it wouldn't have to be a serious storm, just a typical winter wet and windy job) could cause yet more mayhem. To add yet another layer of confusion, thanks to a spectacular engineering failure at Pont Briwet the line north of Harlech was due to remain closed until 2015 after Hochchief, the contractors working on the new bridge, damaged the foundations of the old bridge which it had been hoped to keep open until the new bridge was ready - so I do wonder if the Llanaber sea wall repairs might be delayed whilst the workforce concentrate on restorimg the line at Borth and Tywyn which would reopen the arguably more important Aberystwyth service and at least reopen the coast route to Barmouth, given no service will be possible north of Harlech this summer anyway?