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Bachmann E4


Graham_Muz
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Also, not totally convinced about the numbering - I think the typeface is a little too thick. See the comparative jpg below, using a photo of B473 taken from a very similar angle in 2013.

 

What do others think (truthfully, not 'squint your eyes and hope its OK based on what we had 20y ago')? I could live with it but having got so far, shame not to go the final inch...

 

Also shows the build plate discrpency, and missing oil pot.

 

attachicon.gifB473Comp.jpg

 

before I get shot down, this is constructive criticism, turning an excellent model into a superb model.

 

It's very interesting to compare the photograph to the model. As mentioned the lettering and number is too thick and I hope they adjust this. One of those things that once you're aware of it being wrong it really niggles. I have the LBSC version on order and I look forward to seeing a more recent image. I wasn't that impressed with the first images and rather prefer the SR green version. I wonder if they'll do the improved engine green earlier LBSC livery as a special.

Edited by Anglian
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Thanks for publically clearing that up Muz, and for the excellent pictures.

 

I must say the message has not been totally clear from Bachmann. The original announcement was (quoting from RMWEB)

 

35-076                   Class E4 0-6-2 473 Southern Green (Preserved)                                                  £89.95

 

OK technically there is ambiguity - is this a statement that the loco being modelled is preserved, or that the model will be in preserved condition? Hattons have stated 'as preserved' which is both unambiguious, but also now wrong.

Unlike the change in running number to the BR version, there was to my knowledge no public announcement of the changed era of 35-076. OK, I admit the website (and presumably catalogue) does have 'era 3' stated, but it is only this week that that has been drawn to my attention.

 

Given the discrepancies, number sizing aside, are quite minor (oil pots and cab front lining, smokebox door strap colour), I will probably keep my order, but I can't be the only person who is a little confused.

 

Anyone know a source of the LBSCR oil pots white metal or otherwise?

Edited by G-BOAF
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Lordy!

 

The splashers are a bit oversized!

 

It's missing the oil pots!

 

The builder's plate isn't there, no, wait, it is, but too large!

 

You all are correct, the model is rubbish!

 

I would advise you all to NOT buy this model, and show Bachmann a thing or two for not listening to all the 'experts' out there.

 

That way, they will end up in the bargain bin, and I can buy several more at cheap prices.

 

Sorry, but I seem to recall threads like this regarding the C Class when it was getting close to release, and the discrepancies pointed but some didn't seem to hurt sales, as they were sold out in a few weeks.

 

Am I being a little complacent about some minor details? Perhaps. But overall, I think the model is excellent based on pics I have seen so far.

 

If things that are 'wrong' with the model bothered me enough, I just would not buy one, simple as that.

 

I for one am very thankful for the models Bachmann has done, and will be doing. So I'll support their effort with at least one purchase.

 

Jim F

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Just for completeness the oil pots are not missing from 473 for the Era 3 version / period being modelled by Bachmann. But would be required for her in a current as preserved condition.

Edited by Graham_Muz
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Did we ever find out why the BR late crest version has been (very annoyingly) renumbered?

 

For each person annoyed by a number change another is pleased.......

 

 

I hear all the niggles, but as long as it is the right colour black I for one will be very pleased with it.

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True, but for some, ordering a 2014 registered car and being delivered a "13" plate with a higher price instead can be a disappointment, in relation to the E4, the choice of number is influencing a review in my decision to purchase.

 Isn't that a bit unreasonable? We all knew the price would be higher than when originally announced. How does a change of number make it an old model?

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thecheesemiester, on 19 Feb 2015 - 13:15, said:

 i seem to remember Bachmann saying at some point last year that they had to make the splashers oversized due to the fact that the wheel flanges on oo gauge models are also oversized, so this is just a necessary compromise. 

I think Jim was quoting others' concerns, rather than his own. Yes the position & overall size of the wheels for OO obviously compromises a manufacturer's ability to be faithful in such an area. And the thickness of plastic necessary to make the model splashers at all robust must be a factor, too.

 

I remain of the view that this is the best Brighton Radial I will ever see in RTR. Enough said.

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Yes, OD, my comments were about all the criticisms being posted, that in my minor opinion are just plain petty. If one does not like the details, or lack thereof, on the model, just don't buy one, simple as that. I had just finished reading similar nit picking regarding Oxforrails new wagon releases on another site, before reading this thread, and just was a bit much.

 

I also agree with your "I remain of the view that this is the best Brighton Radial I will ever see in RTR. Enough said." comment, and will buy at least the one I have on pre-order, and hopefully a second, if funds permit at the time.

 

Jim F

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I think Jim was quoting others' concerns, rather than his own. Yes the position & overall size of the wheels for OO obviously compromises a manufacturer's ability to be faithful in such an area. And the thickness of plastic necessary to make the model splashers at all robust must be a factor, too.

 

I remain of the view that this is the best Brighton Radial I will ever see in RTR. Enough said.

It's an unavoidable problem for many r-t-r locos.  Depending on the amount of clearance on the original something has to give for both mass production methods and having something robust enough to sell into the 'general model railway' market.  So inevitably with overscale flanges and plastic moulded splashers something will have to give or both splashers and wheel will have to be 'jiggled' to get the best visual compromise.  Talking to the Bachmann designer who did the GNR atlantic he explained a whole raft of potential dimensional clashes which he had to resolve including the additional one (which I'd tested for myself) that you can barely get the flat of your hand between the flanges of the two driving wheels at their closest point - the same will be true of the Brighton atlantic of course.

 

So mass produced r-t-r is inevitably going to involve compromise for many types of loco, especially older types which were smaller and thus had various features closer to each other.  But Ian is spot on - the E4 is almost certainly going to be the best Brighton radial we are likely to see in r-t-r and judging by the GN example for the NRM I expect the same will be said of the Brighton atlantic when it emerges.

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I received an email from Hattons today saying that their latest information was that it would be:

 

Our latest information from the supplier suggests this item will arrive with us between April 2015 & May 2015

 

 

When I looked on the Bachmann Branchlines website earlier I noticed that they hadn't updated it from March/April.

 

Still no news about the Birdcage Stock. :drag:

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Yes, OD, my comments were about all the criticisms being posted, that in my minor opinion are just plain petty. If one does not like the details, or lack thereof, on the model, just don't buy one, simple as that. I had just finished reading similar nit picking regarding Oxforrails new wagon releases on another site, before reading this thread, and just was a bit much.

 

I also agree with your "I remain of the view that this is the best Brighton Radial I will ever see in RTR. Enough said." comment, and will buy at least the one I have on pre-order, and hopefully a second, if funds permit at the time.

 

Jim F

This is a forum for the discussion of model railways and model railway products, not a manufacturers' fan club. People are interested in accuracy and like to discuss it, it doesn't mean that they think it is a terrible model or that they won't buy it. If in a place like this people are going to be criticized for reviewing the fidelity or otherwise of a model there really is no hope.

 

ROB

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Rob, perhaps I am mistaken then. I was under the impression that the forum was about 'modelling' railways, with people wrriting about what they have accomplished, asking questions, discussing new models that are actually in hand. 

 

If this thread were about models folks actually had, and were critiquing said model, I could understand. But like the OxfordRail wagons, folks are expounding on items not yet available.

 

Some will say this is constructive criticism for the manufacturer. If that's the case, fine, but send it direct to them, as it may be they don't read the forum. Posting it in public just makes it look like the person expounding his or her own 'expertise'.

 

To me, the pettiness comes from the fact that the majority of OO modellers are perfectly Ok with running their locos and rolling stock on track that is too narrow, making the concern about 100% accuracy in a model a bit much.

 

As I did state, also, this was my 'minor' opinion, as I am far from being more than just a tiny blip on the radar, regarding UK modelling.

 

Jim F.

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The production E4 I operated at the Doncaster show ran well (right down to a crawl) and traversed points easily. The finish was well up to the Bachmann standard (although this model was in early crest plain black). If the splashers were over size it was not glaringly obvious in this livery, perhaps lining might show this up more. The smoke box door was about a half degree off square on this model emphasised by the numberplate. I thought the model caught the prototype well and I'd certainly be pleased to run the one I've ordered on my layout. If the smoke box door problem is a common one I'll knock the door out and square it up before weathering.

 

CAT

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Rob F, on 20 Feb 2015 - 11:33, said:

This is a forum for the discussion of model railways and model railway products, not a manufacturers' fan club. People are interested in accuracy and like to discuss it, it doesn't mean that they think it is a terrible model or that they won't buy it. If in a place like this people are going to be criticized for reviewing the fidelity or otherwise of a model there really is no hope.

 

ROB

It's just, Rob, that often the same small group of people appear on each and every such thread with their carps. And in some cases, when we see their own layout - which obviously must be perfect - it isn't. It's as if glorying in others' mistakes or omissions, or in this case almost certainly driven compromises, is a source of positive pleasure. I'm sure you'll agree that that is not what this Forum is about.

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It's just, Rob, that often the same small group of people appear on each and every such thread with their carps. And in some cases, when we see their own layout - which obviously must be perfect - it isn't. It's as if glorying in others' mistakes or omissions, or in this case almost certainly driven compromises, is a source of positive pleasure. I'm sure you'll agree that that is not what this Forum is about.

I understand your point, but if people were being unnecessarily picky or dismissive of a fellow modeler's efforts then it would be a lot more valid. We are talking here of criticism (and I use the word in the sense of meaning analysis, rather than the pejorative sense) of the products of a multinational company. There are many models in my collection (in particular the ones I have worked on!) that are far from perfect but it hasn't prevented me from purchasing them and enjoying them. However, that doesn't mean that I am not interested to know that the lights are wrong place or the nose is too short or any other dimensional inaccuracies. 

 

There is a huge array of knowledgeable people on this forum with insights into the minutiae of a vast range of prototypes. It would be a shame if we were denied their knowledge because of constant accusations nit-picking.

 

Also the line that is constantly peddled that we should be satisfied with whatever we are offered on the basis that the rails are too close together is very tiresome. If we accept that argument we should all be satisfied with the likes of the Lima Deltic or the Hornby 37 and I don't think that is a place where any of us want to be.

 

ROB

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Rob, I do agree with your 1st paragraph, if I read it as wanting to know about a existing product. My issue is that all that has been said so far is in regards to a still to be released product. Again, much like is happening with the OxfordRail wagons.

 

As for the track issue, yes, it has been discussed ad nauseum, I'm sure. To me, it just seems like so much complacency, regarding track. If Peco or similar started to get huge amounts of feedback regarding the wanting of a correct line of track, from a letter/email campaign, public wish lists, etc.., perhaps they would look into the feasibility of a new line of track. But as long as people are acceptable to it, nothing will ever change, no matter how much folks demand more and more accurate models.

 

Again, just my humble opinion.

 

Jim F

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As I did state, also, this was my 'minor' opinion, as I am far from being more than just a tiny blip on the radar, regarding UK modelling.

With the exception of leading lights on the business or press side of the model railway industry, some of whom participate here, we are all but tiny blips. Together we have a larger voice.

 

To me, it just seems like so much complacency, regarding track. If Peco or similar started to get huge amounts of feedback regarding the wanting of a correct line of track, from a letter/email campaign, public wish lists, etc.., perhaps they would look into the feasibility of a new line of track. But as long as people are acceptable to it, nothing will ever change, no matter how much folks demand more and more accurate models.

It's not about a letter writing campaign it is about a century of manufacturing and consumer legacy. There is plenty of spirited interest here in more accurate track - and not just from a gauge standpoint. 

 

Those for whom an accurate track gauge is more important than what is commercially available will model P4 or EM. People who prefer to purchase RtR models have to accept the compromise. Either way, let's not have the scale v. gauge discussion in this thread. It is not relevant to a 00 E4.

 

The E4 is a 00 model. It will be 4mm per foot with a H0 gauge and as such the model will be as specified and advertised.

Edited by Ozexpatriate
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As for the track issue, yes, it has been discussed ad nauseum, I'm sure. To me, it just seems like so much complacency, regarding track. If Peco or similar started to get huge amounts of feedback regarding the wanting of a correct line of track, from a letter/email campaign, public wish lists, etc.., perhaps they would look into the feasibility of a new line of track. But as long as people are acceptable to it, nothing will ever change, no matter how much folks demand more and more accurate models.

 

Again, just my humble opinion.

 

Jim F

The problem with lobbying Peco to make more appropriate track is that it might not benefit their business to do so.

 

A big chunk of their OO market is still for Setrack and Code 100 Streamline and customers generally buy the products either (1) because they want to run old models with coarse wheels, or (2) It's what they have always used and they don't see any need to change. Those customers are presumably happy with the status quo and would be unlikely to adopt a new range of "proper" track so that just leaves those of us who are comfortable with re-wheeling our older stock when necessary as the target audience. 

 

Suitable plain flexi-track with bullhead rail is readily available from other sources. A lot of people buy this and build their own points but advertisements for compatible hand-built ones (by Marcway) have featured in the back pages of Railway Modeller for as long as I can remember so it's achievable even for the unskilled user if he/she is really bothered.

 

Plenty appear not to be and use Streamline "Finescale" Code 75 instead. I suspect that Peco have calculated that introducing a range of purely "British" track would (in commercial terms) do more harm than good by splitting that segment of their market. Unless, of course, a potential competitor looked likely to do it for them........

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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My goodness, it now seems that pointed constructive criticism, while simultaneously acknowledging the E4 looks an excellent model, is off limits.

I personally specifically have not commented on the splashers recently, as they are a previously discussed and logical compromise. The points I have highlighted are those areas where there does not appear to be a logical justification.

Yes I have been disappointed that Birch Grove is not as preserved, as this seems to be a change in spec, and in the case of cabfront lining, not easily rectifiable.

 

The argument presented by some here is that we should be thankful these brilliant models are being produced at all, and therefore ignore any minor unexplained slip ups. Why not do both? I do agree that sometimes the noises of criticism can drown out those of praise... which is unfortunate, but given the magazines will be full of glowing reviews (as they seem to be with most products , let alone those of E4 quality), how else are we as a small community supposed to enact change?

 

I am certainly not advocating people not to buy, although one is frustrated when first batches appear with errors, later corrected on subsequent batches leaving those 'early adopters' high and dry. Such occurrences are certainly not universal, the C class was excellent from day 1, but the A2 (footplate fit, running plate colour, shade of green) the Hornby Merchant Navy Clan Line (smokebox door) are examples where the second batch is better than the first). For those reasons I personally DO try to aviod first releases, although with the sole preserved E4 being produced in this first batch, the waiting strategy does not appear an option...

Edited by G-BOAF
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I'll be pleased when my E4 arrives.  As long as it looks right, and more importantly runs OK i'll be please.  From my point of view it will be a three role loco:  Passenger trains, goods trains and shunter.  I just need the Birdcage set....

 

From a critical point of view, not aimed at the E4, but a general comment.  With regard detail, I'd rather have less than more if it's of a unique nature.  Such things being of an easily added on nature.  I tend to leave most detail parts in the plastic bag.

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To G-BOAF, I have no issue with critiques and criticism of a model, if warranted. It's this penchant, seemingly among UK modellers, to bash things based on a company;s artwork or pilot models, and not models actually in one's hand.

 

If after seeing the artwork, or a pilot model, one sends such comments to the manufacturer, that I would call constructive. To do so on a public forum, that the mfr may or may not read, just strikes me as petty.

 

As I said earlier, after reading on very similar on MRExpress regarding the new OxfordRail wagons, and then this thread, I just gave in and made my own observations.

 

To all, it was not my intention to start up the track issue, I just used that as a example. Perhaps a better one would have been the couplers most find acceptable. Again, just one of many, it seems, compromises people will accept, while criticizing small accuracy details on a forthcoming product.

 

Jim F

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From a critical point of view, not aimed at the E4, but a general comment.  With regard detail, I'd rather have less than more if it's of a unique nature.  Such things being of an easily added on nature.  I tend to leave most detail parts in the plastic bag.

 

This is a very interesting point and one that I have been mulling over myself, particularly after Hornby's toe into design clever. Certainly with that I'd rather have no or simplified pipework than moulded pipework (given I can add it if I wish, or not).

I agree that had Bachmann not paid such attention to detail, this would not be a topic of discussion. I do feel for the manufacturers - criticised if they don't have enough detail, and then criticised again for their particular choice of detail variations. A fair dose of perspective is needed...

Can one have too much detail, especially if this restricts a model's timespan.

 

Maybe worth a general discussion in another thread.

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