SOUTHERN SLEEPER SPACINGS

[N15class]

Hi all

 

I would like to find out what the LSWR and SR plain track sleeper spacings are. I have the 1919 spacings for 45 foot rails, but I would like to know the 60 foot rail spacings for both LSWR and the SR (1930's). Any information on their turnout practice would also be greatly appreciated. I am drawing my layout plan and would like to get the track work right.

 

I have had a search for this but all I found was talk of RTR track and not specific details that relate to LSWR and Southern

 

Thanks in advance.

 

[bécasse]

60 foot long BH rails are comparatively modern and I am not sure that any would have been used by the SR pre-1936/37.

 

The most common rail lengths in use on the LSWR and SR would have been 30 foot and 45 foot. Some American 39 foot rail (designed to fit in standard US 40 foot long gondola wagons) was laid new during WWII and immediately afterwards, and subsequently S/H at other locations.

 

Since you already have details for 45 foot rail lengths stick to that. 

 

Points are more problematic because model railways usually use tighter radius points than the prototype would have used in the same situation. My advice would be to look through photographs* to see how points - and especially sleepering - were laid out, remembering that the maximum length of any one rail would have been 45 feet, and that, as some chairs started to be laid at an angle to their sleepers the sleeper width was increased from 10 inches to 12 and even 14. However, wider sleepers were disproportionally expensive (because they had to be cut from rarer bigger trees) and the pw engineer would not use them unless it was essential to do so. [* Photographs from the 1950s showing point work on secondary lines or in sidings using BH rail would generally be typical of pre-war practice - see for example the former John Smith/Lens of Sutton archive on the Bluebell website.]

[N15class]

60 foot long BH rails are comparatively modern and I am not sure that any would have been used by the SR pre-WWII.

 

The most common rail lengths in use on the LSWR and SR would have been 30 foot and 45 foot. Some American 39 foot rail (designed to fit in standard US 40 foot long gondola wagons) was laid new during WWII and immediately afterwards, and subsequently S/H at other locations.

 

Since you already have details for 45 foot rail lengths stick to that. 

 

Points are more problematic because model railways usually use tighter radius points than the prototype would have used in the same situation. My advice would be to look through photographs* to see how points - and especially sleepering - were laid out, remembering that the maximum length of any one rail would have been 45 feet, and that, as some chairs started to be laid at an angle to their sleepers the sleeper width was increased from 10 inches to 12 and even 14. However, wider sleepers were disproportionally expensive (because they had to be cut from rarer bigger trees) and the pw engineer would not use them unless it was essential to do so. [* Photographs from the 1950s showing point work on secondary lines or in sidings using BH rail would generally be typical of pre-war practice - see for example the former John Smith/Lens of Sutton archive on the Bluebell website.]

  

Thanks for the info. The prompt for the question was when using the LSWR spacing. The sleepers were very much further apart than the standard on Templot. I will have a look and see if i can come up with anything.

 

 

 

Before Grouping, the evidence is that the LSWR did not have plans for turnouts as such. For each generation of rail section (and therefore rail-length), the Civil Engineer's Drawing Office (Waterloo) produced plans for a range of individual switches and crossings, together with guidelines on how they were to be used together. The interpretation of these guidelines was delegated to the relevant District Engineer (I believe there were 3 districts for this purpose).

 

At risk of repetition, the South Western Circle has published for members a wide range of data on pre-grouping PW practice, including the evolution of S&C geometry, which covers the periods from 1891 through 1909 to 1918. The charge for Circle drawings is very modest to cover the cost of printing. The research comes free.

 

Hth

 

 

Thanks.

I was a member of the southwestern circle many years ago. Do you need to be a member to get drawings from them? I did look at rejoining but they do not make it easy for overseas membership.

 

PB

[10800]

I would like to know the 60 foot rail spacings for both LSWR and the SR (1930's). Any information on their turnout practice would also be greatly appreciated. I am drawing my layout plan and would like to get the track work right.

The Scalefour Society Digest Sheets include a template for an SR 60ft panel. This apparently comes from an SR 1926 drawing.

 

This has 24 sleepers. Standard spacing (c/l to c/l) is 31". The last three spacings in the panel at each end are 29", 28" and 27 1/2". The spacing between end sleepers of adjacent panels is 24", plus 5/16" allowance for the rail joint. The end sleepers can be 12" wide if ground is soft and/or traffic is heavy.

 

HTH

[N15class]

The Scalefour Society Digest Sheets include a template for an SR 60ft panel. This apparently comes from an SR 1926 drawing.

 

This has 24 sleepers. Standard spacing (c/l to c/l) is 31". The last three spacings in the panel at each end are 29", 28" and 27 1/2". The spacing between end sleepers of adjacent panels is 24", plus 5/16" allowance for the rail joint. The end sleepers can be 12" wide if ground is soft and/or traffic is heavy.

 

HTH

Just what the doctor ordered. If it was 1926 I might be able to use it. I feel the mainlines would of been first to be done, so not sure now whether my BLT could be 60.

 

Many thanks. A great help and even more to think about.

[martin_wynne]

Just what the doctor ordered. If it was 1926 I might be able to use it.

 

Stuart Hince has written a tutorial on setting up custom rail lengths and sleeper spacings in Templot. It's specifically for the GWR, so just change the numbers accordingly for SR:

 

http://templot.com/martweb/pdf_files/gwr_track_panels.pdf

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[N15class]

Stuart Hince has written a tutorial on setting up custom rail lengths and sleeper spacings in Templot. It's specifically for the GWR, so just change the numbers accordingly for SR:

 

http://templot.com/martweb/pdf_files/gwr_track_panels.pdf

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Thanks Martin

I had a look at it and was very impressed with the way he presented the work.

I had already looked at making track templates, and your site made it very simple to produce a custom section of track. I am pleased with the way the trackwork looks with the change of sleeper spacings. Also being like Southern railway tight with money means less track components to buy too.

[AberdeenBill]

According to one source, 60-foot rails were adopted as the Southern Railway standard in 1936 and 62-foot SR Borail wagons to carry them were introduced in 1937 but I'm sure that shorter rails survived in use for several decades...

 

Bill

[2ManySpams]

Hi all

 

I would like to find out what the LSWR and SR plain track sleeper spacings are. I have the 1919 spacings for 45 foot rails, but I would like to know the 60 foot rail spacings for both LSWR and the SR (1930's). Any information on their turnout practice would also be greatly appreciated. I am drawing my layout plan and would like to get the track work right.

 

I have had a search for this but all I found was talk of RTR track and not specific details that relate to LSWR and Southern

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Evening Peter,

 

Could you let me know the sleeper spacings you have for 45' LSWR track please? I suspect that Pencarrow would be towards the bottom of the track foodchain and would have 45' rather than 60' panels.

[tender]

Hi Chris

Scalefour Society have a plain track template for Southern Railway 45' and 60' panels (1926)

 

Digest 23.5.5.01

 

This shows sleeper spacing as 31" for both panels. The difference being the ends.

45' - 29", 27.5" and 24.25" at the join.

60' - 29",28",27.5" and 24 5/16" at the join.

 

I did find this on the old rmweb site (prototype info - sleeper spacing) but don't know what the source is: (MRJ 33)

 

LSWR(1894) 30' - 34" reducing to 29" and 26" at the join.

 

Hope this helps.

Ray.

[2ManySpams]

Hi Chris

Scalefour Society have a plain track template for Southern Railway 45' and 60' panels (1926)

 

Digest 23.5.5.01

 

This shows sleeper spacing as 31" for both panels. The difference being the ends.

45' - 29", 27.5" and 24.25" at the join.

60' - 29",28",27.5" and 24 5/16" at the join.

 

Hope this helps.

Ray.

 

Big help, thank you - just creating custom panels in Templot.

[N15class]

Hi Chris

Scalefour Society have a plain track template for Southern Railway 45' and 60' panels (1926)

 

Digest 23.5.5.01

 

This shows sleeper spacing as 31" for both panels. The difference being the ends.

45' - 29", 27.5" and 24.25" at the join.

60' - 29",28",27.5" and 24 5/16" at the join.

 

I did find this on the old rmweb site (prototype info - sleeper spacing) but don't know what the source is: (MRJ 33)

 

LSWR(1894) 30' - 34" reducing to 29" and 26" at the join.

 

Hope this helps.

Ray.

This is a minefield as the 1919 45 foot spec is 14" end to first sleeper then 17 equally spaced. I just know when you change it on templot it looks completely different.

[2ManySpams]

This is a minefield as the 1919 45 foot spec is 14" end to first sleeper then 17 equally spaced. I just know when you change it on templot it looks completely different.

 

I think most things are a minefield once you scratch the surface!! 

 

As I'm setting the layout in the late 50s period I assume that the 1926 standard would be more likely. Would be fun, for the track spotters, to have lengths of 1894 and 1919 standard in the sidings....

[2ManySpams]

This is a minefield as the 1919 45 foot spec is 14" end to first sleeper then 17 equally spaced. I just know when you change it on templot it looks completely different.

 

Just so I completely understand the 1919 spec - does the above total 17 or 19 sleepers?  

[tender]

Make sense of this if you can?

 

 

Ray.

 

Edit. 18 sleepers with 17 gaps?

[2ManySpams]

Make sense of this if you can?

 

image.jpg

 

Ray.

 

Edit. 18 sleepers with 17 gaps?

 

mmm, the diagram and caption say two different things!

 

(Edit, I agree with your edit - 18 sleepers, 17 gaps - see post below)

[N15class]

You made me think what did I do on templot I know I did a few different things must check

[2ManySpams]

You made me think what did I do on templot I know I did a few different things must check

 

I've PM'd you some workings out...

 

But having thought about it the diagram does make sense.

 

The note says 45' rail (540") and that A=14" and that there are 18 sleepers (17 gaps).

 

Therefore the gaps are;

 

(540-14-14)/17 = 30.1178"

 

The diagram says 17 sleepers evenly spaced which thinking about it does actually tie in with the clac above and the note. The 'A' dimension is 14" at each end but includes 1/2 a sleeper (as we're looking at centrelines). So, taking the 2no 1/2 sleepers off the 18 leaves 17. This is made up of 1/2 sleeper, 16 whole sleepers and a final 1/2 sleeper. So there can actually be 17 sleeper (widths) as per the diagram. 

[2ManySpams]

So then, in summary, the attached doc is my summary of the various sleeper spacings for different lengths / ages of track panel discussed above.

 

Any corrections or others to add?

 

SR Plain Track Sleeper Spacings V2.pdf

[N15class]

I surprises my that although the rail section get larger they negate some of this buy opening up the sleeper spacings.

[2ManySpams]

And this is what they look like in Templot:

 

[bécasse]

I think most things are a minefield once you scratch the surface!! 

 

As I'm setting the layout in the late 50s period I assume that the 1926 standard would be more likely. Would be fun, for the track spotters, to have lengths of 1894 and 1919 standard in the sidings....

By the late 1950s most, but not all, running lines would have had 60 foot rails sleepered to the 1926 standard. There were odd sections with 45 foot and even 39 foot rails which were very obvious because of the different noise trains made when traversing them. There were also more sections of concrete sleepered track with chairs and 60 foot lengths of BH rail than you might imagine, even on branch lines.

 

Regularly used carriage sidings and sorting sidings tended to be laid to running line standards but in goods yards, used more or less only by 4-wheel wagons and 0-6-0 shunting locos at low speeds, almost anything could be found. Being at the bottom of the cascade for rail, some at least were rerailed surprisingly often (rather than relaid) and it wouldn't have been impossible to find 60 foot rail laid on sleepers which had originally born shorter rails. The best approach here would be to get the spacings roughly right without bothering too much with accuracy.

[martin_wynne]

Here are some details from C.J. Allen (1915):

 

 

(click the above to read it clearly)

 

Martin.

[2ManySpams]

Very interesting comparison Martin, thanks.

[2ManySpams]

Whilst on the subject of track, I thought folk might find the attached scans of a SR gangers book interesting: