EMUs, locos, coaching stock and associated items for Balcombe

[Re6/6]

Whatever happened to many of those fantastic prototype photographs we used to see from Alan Williams, it would be great to get them scanned from the original negs and made available again in larger format either in books or via the net.

 

Kevin

 

Agreed Kevin.

 

There is this, but it's the only one by him that I know of.

 

[Strathwood]

I have been ferreting around trying to unearth more material from the 1940s to the end of the BELs with some success, but if anyone has even just the odd shot do let me know as I will be sitting down to edit the new book in a couple of months.

 

Kevin

[Re6/6]

Andy has kindly merged the two threads (6-CIT build and 4-LAV for Balcombe) into this one so that we can now both post our various projects with the stock.

 

I'm currently experimenting with a selection of Comet sides for various Bulleids that I acquired some while ago by cutting out the sides on the old Bachmann models. If successful, these will be used for one of the consists for a Newhaven boat train and some 'loose' excursion stock.

 

Pics to follow....if successful!

 

Two Hornby Belle trailers have arrived for cut'n'shutting into the Pullman coaches in a 6-PUL and a 4-PUL.

[bigbadbadge]

Wow very inspirational thread, very informative, keep up the great work.

 

All the best

Chris

[10800]

I'm going to jump in here with a bit of P4 conversion work.  Now purists will probably wince at some of this, but Balcombe will be a layout where trains are usually on the move, sometimes quite rapidly, and often viewed from a distance so I don't have any problem with missing out some of the fiddly details of the undercarriage in the interests of progress, especially when there's a lot to do.

 

A typical example of this is the brake shoes on Maunsell coaches.  Yes you can (and I have) done the full cut-and-shunt operation as described by the EMGS and elsewhere and making sure the the brake shoes are in line with the new P4 wheels.  But this takes time, and when you have dozens of them ...  So I just (sorry folks) snip 'em off.  Then all you need to do is simply swap the wheels for Gibsons or Ultrascales, job done.  No filing, no addition of axle bearings, and if your track is half decent no need for suspension or compensation.  Also you don't need to remove the body to detach the bogies with all the potential collateral damage that entails on those fragile details like step-boards when you're trying to find something firm to hold on to.  (I wish Hornby would have simple screw fittings for their bogies like Bachmann).

 

So, back to conversions.  First, a Bachmann 4-CEP.  Mechanically the trailer bogies are a doddle using the bogie frame spacers that were until recently available through Scalefour Stores but now seem to be unavailable.  You cut the bogie into three, overlay the spacer and that's about it.  Unfortunately I don't seem to have any photos of the process, just the finished article:

 

 

 

 

The 4-CEP is a split-axle construct, with pickups throughout via solid metal wheels and copper bearing assemblies that feed the current via vertical prongs above the bogie which bear on busbars above the floor.  These run through the train connected by those bespoke couplings carrying the two wires.

 

 

 

The Ultrascale P4 wheels sit happily if a bit floppily in these 'bearings'.  Just as well because the holes behind them are too big to fix finescale bearings.

 

The next post on the 4-CEP will deal with the motor bogie and electrics.

[10800]

So, onto the 4-CEP motor bogie.  The plastic bogie assembly clips off with minimal persuasion and you can then unclip the brass carrier bearings from the plastic inner bogie frames to free the 2 mm drive axles.  These then pull apart to reveal two stub ends of 1.5 mm diameter  which between them carry the gear and maintain the electrical gap.

 

 

There are now two approaches to replacing the wheels for P4.  You can remove the Bachmann wheels from the half-axle (using a GW Models wheel puller, or you could tap the axle out carefully with a suitable implement of less than 2 mm in a vice) and replace them with your chosen P4 wheel - Branchlines in this case.  You can then use the gear as is but you will need to add 1.5 mm washers either side to push the wheels out far enough to enable gauging to P4.  Re-inserted it looks like this.

 

 

A possible disadvantage to this is the loss of solidity in the middle of the axle because of the increased separation, although that hasn't been apparent.  That can be overcome by the other method which is to drill out the 1.5 mm hole in the nylon gear to 2 mm (I had a drill bit of 1.9 mm which gave a nice interference fit) and use the whole of the Branchlines axle.  I currently have one of each type in the bogie and will let sleeping dogs lie unless there's a problem.  The motor bogie pickups still bear on the all metal Branchlines wheels but the axle is insulated so electrical separation is maintained.  Finally the plastic bogie frame unit could be refitted after quite a bit of filing to give clearances to the P4 wheels - fortunately there's enough meat on the frames to do this.

 

I wanted to maintain pickups in the trailer bogie on the motor coach, but because the pickup function relied on the copper assembly which included the axle bearings, this wouldn't work with the Branchlines wheels - they would just short across the axle.  So this meant separating the bearing part of the assembly and supergluing it back in place to preserve its mechanical function, and soldering new phosphor-bronze wire pickups to the surviving part of the assembly and bending them to bear on the backs of the wheels.

 

Now the mysterious bit.  I imagined I would have to do the same with the trailer bogies in the other three coaches which ostensibly are connected to the same pickup system via the wired connector/couplings.  But when I tested it first there was no problem at all.  I still don't quite understand that - if they are connected down the train from the same busbar in the motor coach that connects the pickups there, why doesn't it short across any/all of the trailing bogie axles in the three other coaches?  

 

But it works fine, at speed in both directions, as shown here in push mode (before I refitted the bogie frames on the motor bogie).

 

 

 

 

[10800]

As well as John's EMU projects we need some loco-hauled trains for Balcombe too.  The main signature service would be the Newhaven Boat Trains, hauled either by an H2 Atlantic or one of the electric locos (20001/2/3, even 71s were used briefly).

 

I'm going to base the train on information kindly provided by Glen Woods on the SRLHCS forum, for services in 1955.  In our part of the multiverse they will be mostly in crimson/cream with some of the broad cantrail stripes surviving and even the odd green one (either a not-yet-repainted SR one or a newly painted post-1956 one).

 

The consist chosen as a 'representation' is:

 

BFK 'Continental' dia.552 - based on Worsley Works kit and Bedford sprung bogies

FK Bulleid dia.2552 - Bachmann chassis with Comet replacement sides

CK Bulleid dia.2318 - ditto

SO BR Mk1 'Boat Second', basically a TSO - probably from a donor Bachmann Mk1 SO with new TSO sides cut on the Silhouette cutter

SO Maunsell low-window - ideally should be a high window Restriction 1, may do that one day, otherwise a Hornby repaint.

SO Maunsell low-window - Roxey kit on Bedford bogies

SO Maunsell 1935/36 flush sided dia.2007 - sides with Silhouette cutter on Roxey underframe, Bedford bogies

SK Maunsell dia.2001 high window

SK Maunsell dia.2001 high or low window

BSO Maunsell dia.2654 - Roxey kit, Bedford bogies

 

Optional Pullman (12-wheel kitchen) - in the short term I have a Hornby 'Monaco' (Golden Arrow vehicle) which I can convert with Masokits bits for a 6-wheel bogie.  Longer term I would like to do 'Grosvenor' from the Mike King drawing and the Silhouette.

[Re6/6]

This is the first loco being built for the SO inter-regional excursions...(Leeds > Brighton)

 

Still much to do. It is a Jamieson (Eames) 'hand cut' kit.

 

Maybe a Squires epicyclic gearbox is called for which was kindly given to me by the Baron!

 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Re6/6

[Horsetan]

^^

Looks better than the Bachmann one.

[Grovenor]

There are now two approaches to replacing the wheels for P4.

 

Or you could just use the even simpler way, buy the Branchlines conversion set that comes with the half axles ready to fit.

Regards

[Re6/6]

A couple of glimpses of 20003 which is being built as the traction for the early Newhaven boat train set. This will consist of some early Maunsell stock which will most likely be built from 'Roxey' etched kits and Worsley Works etched sides for 'Grosvenor', one of the two Pullman cars usually in a set. 

 

It will be painted in the early fifties black and 'silver' livery which will go nicely with the assorted stock that are in a typical early boat set in crimson and cream.

 

There is still much to do both on the body and the chassis. The new axle boxes will need re-making and setting more squarely. There is a Judith Edge pan to be fitted and of course the appropriate shoe beams, jumper cables and all the other odds and sods. 

 

It started out in life as basic thick brass wrapper from MTK/NNK and nothing else. The wrapper was originally rolled with an 'conical' error which created problems but has been now rectified. These early offerings were made from very thick brass (by today's standards!) which makes for the use of gas soldering for the most part. Dwell a moment too long and it all falls to bits...which it did once! Resistance soldering is also very useful for certain operations.

 

Power comes from a modified and cut about  Bachmann class 45 chassis with flywheels and Ultrascales fitted.

 

 

 

[Brinkly]

I must have missed this thread gents. It's nice to see some progress with your units.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[10800]

A couple of glimpses of 20003 which is being built as the traction for the early Newhaven boat train set. This will consist of some early Maunsell stock which will most likely be built from 'Roxey' etched kits and Worsley Works etched sides for 'Grosvenor', one of the two Pullman cars usually in a set

Just to clarify, Roxey will provide the Restriction 1 Maunsells, especially the BSO at one end. Worsley Works do basic kits for SECR Continental stock including the BFK at the other end (sometimes a BSK in place of the later Maunsell BSO) and also the 12 wheel Pullmans Grosvenor and Myrtle, both refurbished ex-LBSCR vehicles. When used, one of the Pullmans substituted for (usually) a Bulleid or Maunsell CK, maintaining a train length of 10 plus a PMV.

 

Later Newhaven boats (early 60s) had Bulleid BSKs each end, a Bulleid CK or FK and seven Mk1 TSOs. An RB could replace one of the TSOs.

[10800]

So moving along, work is now (in the interval period between Crawley and Scaleforum) progressing on some of these coaches for the Newhaven Boat trains.

 

Brian (Taz) is currently converting a Bachmann Mk1 RU to an RB using Comet sides, which will go occasionally in the early 1960s consist.  For the mid-50s train I am currently working on the SECR 'Continental' Brake 1st and the Pullman buffet 'Grosvenor'.  Both are based on the basic body etches from Worsley Works, which assemble in the 'Comet' fashion, although I am soldering (rather than screwing) the assembled sides and ends to the floor pan for my convenience and to add stability, especially for 'Grosvenor' where the ends of the sides are very delicate because the end doors are right on the end.

 

I am also recessing the doors further than Worsley Works planned.  For the Brake 1st the etch assumes it is the version with the modification to outward opening doors carried out on most of them, but I prefer the look of the recessed doors so apparent on photos of the Newhavens, which meant cutting out the doors and setting them back on strips of brass soldered behind the apertures.  This in turn meant some carving of the brackets between the ends and sides.

 

On the Pullman, Worsley allow for a recess by having separate doors, but it is only by the thickness of the brass (15 thou) and not enough according to the excellent photo of the vehicle in Mike King's recent 'Southern Rolling Stock in Colour'.  So more carving of the end brackets to give room for some additional plastic strip spacers.

 

Photos following show where I am so far.  It's nearly all seam-soldering, there are no tabs, but the etches are true and a nice square 'box' resulted in both cases - always an encouraging start.  I haven't done the Pullman doors yet.

 

Maunsell Continental Brake 1st

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pullman buffet 'Grosvenor'

 

 

 

 

 

 

Grosvenor is a 12-wheeler, so the bogies will be sprung using Masokits etches and spare Hornby sideframes obtained from Peter's Spares (well, with the rest of the Hornby 12-wheel bogies).

 

Next in the queue will be the Maunsell Restriction 1 BSO and SO (Roxey), and the Maunsell 1936 stock SO (Bill Bedford sides, Roxey underframe).

Edited May 6, 2016 by 10800

[chris25]

Hello 10800,

 

I saw Balcombe at Crawley and was very impressed with your progress. Although I cannot load the files directly as they exceed 1mb, so I've attached a link.

 

Perhaps I could give you some inspiration for your ex SECR Continental Coach and Maunsell BSO. They are part of a Boat train I am assembling, 'The Continental Express - Short Sea Route'.

 

 

https://plus.google.com/103843477600265609191/posts/MWAE7aBwQx8

 

Regards

 

Chris White

[Re6/6]

Thank you Chris for your kind words. We were gratified with the reception that we got despite being so behind on the work schedule.

 

I'm loving those Maunsells.

[10800]

Thanks Chris - those Maunsells are fabulous, I'll be very pleased if I can get anywhere near that quality!

[chris25]

Thank you very much.

 

They are enjoyable kits to build and are improved further with alittle extra detailing work. I would also a recommend replacing the vacuum formed roof with a brass one.

 

Last year I was lucky enough to get some photographs of the underframe and interior of a Maunsell BSO based at the Kent and east Sussex railway, whilst it was being over hauled.

 

Regards

 

Chris

[10800]

A bit further with 'Grosvenor' - recessed doors now fitted, and most of the bogie frames assembled (just the centre axles to add).  It runs quite nicely even with temporarily-fitted 8-wheel bogies!

 

 

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

Lovely lovely brass.

[Re6/6]

The latest addition to the stock. This time not built by us. It is an 'old school' aluminium BSL kit and it will most probably be taken apart for re-glazing with glass cover slips and new grab handles. The motor bogie which is of an old design and rather noisy will be replaced with a new Hornby EMU one.

 

 

It will be part of a 4-PUL set that was used for a short period in the early 60s.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/4pul.html

 

[Colin parks]

Hi John,

 

An epic amount of coach building for Balcombe!  That Bulleid loco is looking promising-must have missed your post at the time.

 

Have you also been working on the 6-CIT or 4 LAV  lately?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Edited December 22, 2016 by Colin parks

[Re6/6]

Hi Colin,

 

Good to hear from you. 

Have you also been working on the 6-CIT or 4 LAV  lately?

 

 

 

Not much actually. As a Prime Minister once said..."events dear boy, events"....! My focus at the moment is to concentrate on kitchens and other 'housework'. Not half the fun of modelling!

 

Modelling focus is on the layout proper with stock building and finishing to be completed in 2018. It doesn't mean of course that one should resist involvement in stock matters! Regarding the 6-CIT, the Hby all 1st Maunsells needed for cut'n'shutting have now been acquired and a set of etched sides (to be modified) for the unique slab sided 11001 driving car.  All the Hby spare motor bogie parts that will be needed for future projects have been bought. Many of them are now becoming seemingly unavailable like complete 'BEL' and 'BIL' motor bogies.

 

Planning has been done for the 6-PAN set by using 'mixed media'. My preference is for brass construction. Bill Bedford does some suitable Maunsell etched sides that can be used for cut'n'shutting the DMBT sides and some of the trailer coaches. The rest will be done on the 'Silhouette' machine in laminated 10 thou plasticard. All good fun!

 

I have fitted a new chassis block on 20003 as the 45 one that l had altered didn't function well in the motor bogie department. This time l used a Bach 37 chassis block although being a scale 2mm too long at the bogie pivot points it does work very well now and my eyes don't notice the inaccuracy!

 

P.S. Happy Christmas to you Colin and to all the readers of our thread!

Edited December 23, 2016 by Re6/6

[Taz]

Here are the latest two coaches for Balcombe. Both Bachmann conversions with Comet sides.

 

 

 

MK1 RB converted from Bachmann RU.

 

 

 

Bulleid Daig2552 FK converted from Bachmann Bulleid CK

 

 

[NIK]

 

 

Now the mysterious bit.  I imagined I would have to do the same with the trailer bogies in the other three coaches which ostensibly are connected to the same pickup system via the wired connector/couplings.  But when I tested it first there was no problem at all.  I still don't quite understand that - if they are connected down the train from the same busbar in the motor coach that connects the pickups there, why doesn't it short across any/all of the trailing bogie axles in the three other coaches?  

 

But it works fine, at speed in both directions, as shown here in push mode (before I refitted the bogie frames on the motor bogie).

 

 

Hi,

 

Apologies if somebody has already replied about this but I think the electrical connections between the coaches only carry signals for the interior lighting.

The return path for the lighting or lighting control must be generated by circuitry from the DCC waveform picked up on each coach - thus the use of pickups in each carriage.

 

Regards

 

Nick