Metropolitan Bo-Bo EP sample

[Roy P]

Does any kit maker do suitable rolling stock for these? Would be interested in building a train based on their later lives, say late '50s up to withdrawal. 

 

These kits for the Dreadnoughts are all I know of at present.

 

http://www.radleymodels.com/prods/4753/dreadnought-1st-class.html

http://www.radleymodels.com/prods/4754/dreadnought-3rd-class.html

http://www.radleymodels.com/prods/4755/dreadnought-3rd-class-brake.html

 

We'll get as far as Rickmansworth.

Then just swap the Bo-Bo for a Bachmann Fairburn tank for the onward slog to Aylesbury.

 

I thought there was something for the Ashbury (Chesham/Bluebell) stock but since another tread is talking of 3D printing them, I must be mistaken.

 

RP

[Metr0Land]

 

I thought there was something for the Ashbury (Chesham/Bluebell) stock but since another tread is talking of 3D printing them, I must be mistaken.

 

RP

 

http://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/carriages/metropolitan-rlwy-carriage/

[PhilJ W]

For goods traffic there is a Metropolitan Goods brake here >>

http://www.smallbrookstudio.com/page3.php

page down, its the third brake van. 

Edited March 31, 2014 by PhilJ W

[GoingUnderground]

Country, Suburban or City, they ran from Liverpool Street to Rickmansworth in leafy Hertfordshire, and for a very brief period to Chesham in Buckinghamshire. They also hauled GWR passenger stock to Moorgate, picking it up at Bishops Road, Paddington. If you're interested in the loco visit the London Underground section of the forum. There's plenty of information on there about them and what they hauled.

 

For those of you that are interested, you need to add 3rd rail as a minimum, and ideally 4th rail. Only No 12, Sarah Siddons was ever modified for 3rd rail operation, and that was in 1983, 20 years after the locos were withdrawn from revenue service. At least they appear to have made a better job of it than they did with the Class 76/EM1 and Class 77/EM2. But the roof/body seam doesn't look quite right. Here's the real thing. 

 

Possible Livery variants are Metropolitan Railway (as per the photo), LPTB livery, Grey and Red (sometimes called the wartime livery), and finally London Transport livery.

Edited April 11, 2014 by GoingUnderground

[GoingUnderground]

It is good to see London Transport/London Underground come in out of the cold after being totally ignored by mainstream manufacturers since the demise of the Hornby (Meccano) O gauge tinplate models of the MetroVic and "matching" coaches  from the 1920s and 1930s, and the 1950/60s Every Ready tube train, which looked more like a cross between the 1950s Waterloo & City stock and Standard Stock.

 

I will probably get one of the Heljan models, but it will be with regret as Phil Radley was telling me that Heljan's announcement totally killed off sales of his MetroVic kits. I will readily agree that Phil's isn't the best model, I'm currently bashing one of them to remedy most of the errors. However the Harrow Model Shop/Poulner Models/Radley Models kits were for many, many years all that was available for LT modellers. And cherry picking models like this will damage Phil's business, and may actually end up reducing the total number of LT/LU models around. The only compensation is that John Polley's Metromodels, the other supplier of LT models in 4mm whose range complimented Phil's kits are looking to produce new models themselves of much of the LT stock, including some that have never been offered as kits or RTR before.

 

Heljan might be able to rebody the MetroVic motor/chassis to produce the Metropolitan BTH loco, one of which was actually converted to be the first MetroVic loco, No 17 "Florence Nightingale". The London Underground section of the Forum also has information on the BTH loco, which is also currently available as a Radley Models kit.

 

On the licensing issue, it does matter in the case of commercial models. The London Transport and London Underground names and the roundel logos are all registered trademarks, as I believe are all the logos and trademarks of the predecessor companies that were amalgamated to formed the LPTB in 1933. I am reasonably confident that this includes the Metropolitan line logo which was last seen on rolling stock in normal revenue service as recently as 2012, on the A60 stock, next to the drivers door below the cantrail. Trademarks cannot be used without permission of the trademark holder, or the holder will sue. If they don't sue then the trademark holder risks losing the rights as it may be considered to have passed into the public domain if they stop enforcing their rights over it. TfL do not chase individual modellers as they are not benefitting financially from their hobby, but commercial organisations are. The best example in the case of LT/TfL is probably Modelmaster Jackson Evans who did license their transfers for LT/LU models from TfL.

 

If you're a Londoner like me, you may not think of the roundel as a trademark, it just seems to be an integral part of the city, so it is easy to overlook the legal niceties about its commercial use, but they do matter.

Edited April 11, 2014 by GoingUnderground

[Xerces Fobe2]

In the meantime there are always these!

 

 

XF

 

 

[Mark Dickerson]

I will probably get one of the Heljan models, but it will be with regret as Phil Radley was telling me that Heljan's announcement totally killed off sales of his MetroVic kits. I will readily agree that Phil's isn't the best model, I'm currently bashing one of them to remedy most of the errors. However the Harrow Model Shop/Poulner Models/Radley Models kits were for many, many years all that was available for LT modellers. And cherry picking models like this will damage Phil's business, and may actually end up reducing the total number of LT/LU models around. The only compensation is that John Polley's Metromodels, the other supplier of LT models in 4mm whose range complimented Phil's kits are looking to produce new models themselves of much of the LT stock, including some that have never been offered as kits or RTR before.

 

Were I a kit manufacturer, I'd be waiting to see what Bachmann announce in July - who knows, the rumours of the MetroVic were garbled - and seeing the lack of Dreadnought stock as an opportunity. I can imagine a RTR Underground unit appearing at some point (with Met No.1 as an outside, commissioned, chance), but we're a long way off LT/LUL as the Next Big Thing.

[GoingUnderground]

Were I a kit manufacturer, I'd be waiting to see what Bachmann announce in July - who knows, the rumours of the MetroVic were garbled - and seeing the lack of Dreadnought stock as an opportunity. I can imagine a RTR Underground unit appearing at some point (with Met No.1 as an outside, commissioned, chance), but we're a long way off LT/LUL as the Next Big Thing.

 

If I were an RTR manufacturer, I would not like to invest in tooling for models, such as Metropolitan locomotive hauled passenger stock, that depended on another manufacturer's product, in this case the Heljan Metrovic, to support sales of my product, too much of a hostage to fortune. If sales of the other manufacturer's product are poor then I've wasted my money in the tooling for the models to support it, especially if the loco and rolling stock were unique to one route. This doesn't apply to Heljan/Olivia's Class 76/EM1s or EM2/77s as whilst the locos were unique to the Woodhead route, the rolling stock they hauled wasn't.

 

Heljan's choice of the MetroVic on its own just looks bizarre to me. It's too late for the 150th celebrations, needs as a minimum a layout with 3rd rail, and suitable rolling stock. But how many layouts have 3rd rail, let alone 4th rail, and has been pointed out already in this thread, there is no RTR Metropolitan/LT stock, unless Heljan plan to release that later once they see how sales of the loco go.

 

If the kit manufacturers do wait, as you suggest, and hold off producing more kits in fear of what Bachmann might be about to announce, it just further damages the availability of LT models. But it is the sensible thing for the kit makers to do to avoid potentially unsaleable stock. 

 

We are seeing Hornby and Bachmann producing less common models in a search to find new sales from models not already/previously produced, or produced many years ago. Heljan are obviously prepared to go down this route as well with so many of the mainsteam locos and stock covered already by Hornby and Bachmann. So I would not be surprised to learn that they are all looking at LT/LU items. If there are further LT releases the possibility/hope of release of other LT items will damage the kit makers.

 

However, looking is not the same as releasing, and there is a precedent. Bachmann did announce about 10-12 years ago that they would produce UK trams in 4mm, and I think got as far as producing sample products, but then pulled the plug on the project. I cannot remember which trams, but the source of my information is David Voice's 3rd edition of "How to Tram & Tramway Modelling".

 

I'm not a happy bunny, but fortunately I have most of the historic LT models that I want, and the ones that I don't yet have are on order with John Polley.

[Xerces Fobe2]

If But how many layouts have 3rd rail, let alone 4th rail, and has been pointed out already in this thread, 

 

Me and a few others  -May The Forth Rail Be With Us!

Edited April 12, 2014 by Xerces Fobe2

[Ian Hargrave]

And as a postscript to the reference to Olivia's Woodhead electrics,let us hope that Heljan make a better job of it than that.Sorry that there is a degree of dissension over this.Remember quite a few will buy this and run it happily on two rails towing a Bachmann LT wagon set and brake van and....if it lives up to its promise.....will be well happy just with that.The hobby needs the unusual and the antique....and just remember the take up on Bachmann's Wainwright C which confounded us all.I have every confidence this will be a winner,given the consistent excellence of Heljan's current models.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Ian Hargrave

[Horsetan]

The Heljan sample certainly looks promising. I do hope someone will consider producing some decent Westinghouse signal kits as well!

[Mark Dickerson]

And as a postscript to the reference to Olivia's Woodhead electrics,let us hope that Heljan make a better job of it than that.Sorry that there is a degree of dissension over this.Remember quite a few will buy this and run it happily on two rails towing a Bachmann LT wagon set and brake van and....if it lives up to its promise.....will be well happy just with that.The hobby needs the unusual and the antique....and just remember the take up on Bachmann's Wainwright C which confounded us all.I have every confidence this will be a winner,given the consistent excellence of Heljan's current models.

 

While I don't think it has the fame of the US GG1 class, there've been a number of models of that - and not a lot of caternary modelled that I can see. Yes, it missed the 150th, but Sarah Siddons will be out and about again this year, so...

 

My guess would be no announcement from Bachmann, sales of Radley Models Dreadnought will rise, and there will be a rise in LT-involving layouts. *Good*.

[GoingUnderground]

And as a postscript to the reference to Olivia's Woodhead electrics,let us hope that Heljan make a better job of it than that.Sorry that there is a degree of dissension over this.Remember quite a few will buy this and run it happily on two rails towing a Bachmann LT wagon set and brake van and....if it lives up to its promise.....will be well happy just with that.The hobby needs the unusual and the antique....and just remember the take up on Bachmann's Wainwright C which confounded us all.I have every confidence this will be a winner,given the consistent excellence of Heljan's current models.

I think excellence is in the eye of the beholder. It just takes one glaring mistake to ruin a model, such as the pantographs on the EM1s and EM2s, or the cab windows on the EM2. Replacing the pans can be done, but many won't do it. Changing the cab windows on the EM2 is, IMHO, not practicable. These are my only Heljan models, and I wouldn't describe them as excellent because of these faults, reasonable but disappointing because of the faults, but not excellent. So I personally don't think it is appropriate to describe their current models as consistently excellent. 

 

People will buy the MetroVic and run it on their non-electrified layouts with the Bachmann LT wagon set, (which was hardly a frequent event), much the same way as people have bought OHLE locos and run them without any catenary. It is their layouts, and they are free to do what they want, but it may well damage genuine LT modellers by reducing availability of LT items as kits which haven't been "cherry picked". You cannot say that about other unusual or antique british outline locos or rolling stock. The LMS twins or the Co-Bo Class 28 won't have any effect on the availability of LMS or BR rolling stock, the ranges will continue as before, but the Haljan MetroVic may on LT may. That's my gripe. Heljan may get richer, and some LT modellers may indeed be happier with an RTR model being available, but LT modelling may end up poorer overall. I hope I'm proved wrong. 

[Ian Hargrave]

The Woodhead electrics are an Olivia's commission in any case and are not mainstream Heljan.If you have no experience of their railbus models,the class 128,the baby Deltics,the NBL type1 and the Beyer Garratt,you have missed a consistently high standard of r-t-r modelling.

I think,if you reread what I posted,you will see that I excepted classes 76&77 from my comments.Most of us know the glaring shortcomings of these

Heljan models usually outperform models of other manufacturers in their haulage capacity.

[GoingUnderground]

The Woodhead electrics are an Olivia's commission in any case and are not mainstream Heljan.If you have no experience of their railbus models,the class 128,the baby Deltics,the NBL type1 and the Beyer Garratt,you have missed a consistently high standard of r-t-r modelling.

I think,if you reread what I posted,you will see that I excepted classes 76&77 from my comments.Most of us know the glaring shortcomings of these

Heljan models usually outperform models of other manufacturers in their haulage capacity.

I haven't missed the models that you quote as they are of absolutely no interest to me as they never ran on the London Underground. I am interested in the EM1s and EM2s and can only speak from my experience of these models.

[Ian Hargrave]

I haven't missed the models that you quote as they are of absolutely no interest to me as they never ran on the London Underground. I am interested in the EM1s and EM2s and can only speak from my experience of these models.

I'm really sorry Keith but for the life of me I can't understand your logic when you post that it is "not appropriate to describe their models as consistently excellent" when you state that you have no interest in any other Heljan model other than the DC electrics....in other words you have no knowledge of them...you are just aware of their existence,it would seem.

You seem to be rather upset,which is a great shame.I would not doubt your passion or committment to LT modelling for one moment but please allow others the space to express their views and interests.

[PaulRhB]

Whoa there have been several pics of these ep samples and so far no one has picked anything up unlike similar threads on other locos

Heljan are a bit erratic, some of the best and some howlers too but the options buy it or find a kit

I wouldn't have bothered buying the Radley kit as there are many other things I'd rather spend that time building first but I probably will have one of these, (at least), and who knows where that might lead. Been looking at LT panniers too. I suspect it may well tip more into a bit of LT modelling on the side or as part of their layout so I doubt the kit guys will get as hit as much as the efe tube trains initial impact did.

[jjb1970]

I think this is a terrific choice of subject from Heljan and consistent with their taste for oddball and left field prototype choices such as the various diesel prototypes they've done. I'd like to think we'll have access to something RTR for them to haul but if not it won't stop me getting one as it is one of those oddities that I'm more than happy to buy as a one off and use modelers license with regards running.

[Catkins]

I'm going to respond to a small part of the original post -

 

People will buy the MetroVic and run it - but it may well damage genuine LT modellers by reducing availability of LT items as kits which haven't been "cherry picked". - but the Haljan MetroVic may on LT may. That's my gripe. Heljan may get richer, and some LT modellers may indeed be happier with an RTR model being available, but LT modelling may end up poorer overall. I hope I'm proved wrong.

 

If the price is right I would buy one of these, irrespective of the livery, and it might encourage me to research more LT models and operations - something that I currently have no interest in, and with an RTR (and iconic) locomotive how many more 'new' modellers could you get, especially when you consider that some people don't like making loco kits.

[GoingUnderground]

I'm really sorry Keith but for the life of me I can't understand your logic when you post that it is "not appropriate to describe their models as consistently excellent" when you state that you have no interest in any other Heljan model other than the DC electrics....in other words you have no knowledge of them...you are just aware of their existence,it would seem.

You seem to be rather upset,which is a great shame.I would not doubt your passion or committment to LT modelling for one moment but please allow others the space to express their views and interests.

Ian,

 

It doesn't matter if I have seen the examples you gave or not of their "...consistently high standard of RTR modelling...". The ones that I have seen are not "excellent" and hence I challenge your description of their current models as being of a "consistent excellence" when by your own admission the Woodhead electrics cannot be described as such.

 

I think that PaulRhB put it rather well when he said in post 68 "..Heljan are a bit erratic, some of the best and some howlers too..".

Edited April 13, 2014 by GoingUnderground

[Ian Hargrave]

Ian,

 

It doesn't matter if I have seen the examples you gave or not of their "...consistently high standard of RTR modelling...". The ones that I have seen are not "excellent" and hence I challenge your description of their current models as being of a "consistent excellence" when by your own admission the Woodhead electrics cannot be described as such.

 

I think that PaulRhB put it rather well when he said in post 68 "..Heljan are a bit erratic, some of the best and some howlers too..".

Well then,no more need be said,I can't communicate with a closed mind.This dialogue is at an end.

[GoingUnderground]

Well then,no more need be said,I can't communicate with a closed mind.This dialogue is at an end.

You mean that you cannot get me to change my view to agree with you.

 

I will quote you again "....please allow others the space to express their views and interests." even if they disagree with yours, or anyone else's.

 

Dialogue closed.

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Is this a "last word" tournament? It was never my intention to "change your mind",Iassure you...that would be akin to me taking on the role of King Canute.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Ian Hargrave

[Engineer_London]

Just enquiring for clarification - if it is appropriate to ask and if it's information that can be revealed:

 

What's the broad status of the development project for the loco model, and how far has the engineering prototype reached in getting features and detail right?

Is there a process of scrutiny still to come, looking at refinements of detail?

[dibber25]

Third and/or fourth rail essential? I wonder how many Hornby Brighton Belles or Bachmann CEPs/MLVs are running on layouts with 3rd rail? I'll wager its not a high percentage. Lack of fourth rail will make absolutely no difference to sales of the Heljan loco. If people like it/want it, they'll buy it and run it regardless.

CHRIS LEIGH