Scratch building or 'assemblage'?

[Chubber]

I'd like start another thread unless members here believe I am in danger of upsetting the long-established RMWeb tradition of not introducing controversy [ :} ] but rather choosing not to say anything in which case I'll make no further similar comment should this thread remain response free.

When is scratch-building really scratch-building? [here I speak only of structure building, my particular enthusiasm..]

Without wishing to suggest that card scratch building is not real unless you mash your Esparto grass and china clay and press your own card, or, plastic scratch-building is not real unless you mix and mould your own polymers....

Is it really scratch-building if you buy complete white metal cast chimneys with pots, etched brass windows, pre-moulded plastic sheets or pre-designed texture papers or plastic moulded doors and assemble them to form a structure?

The question - 'Where do you draw the line'?

On another forum, after a very interesting explanation of the means by which a partly open OO sash window was made at the expense of 3 hours work, I read a comment by a contributor to this forum '....No thank you, three hours? I'd rather buy them ready made...' together with an assertion that the modeller was lacking in mental processes. That was the catalyst for my current train of thought.

If you have already tidied your sock drawer, or have watched your recording of the Farrage/Clegg debate for the fourteenth time and have completed your detailed notes on syntax and hanging prepositions, then I invite you to join this debate.

You may of course have more pressing matters at hand like re-filling the cat's litter tray or joining the dots on your print of Seurat's 'Bathers at Asniers'....


Respectfully,


Doug

[currently grinding lapiz lazuli and gum arabic to paint a blue sky back-scene.....]

[Kenton]

For me the dividing line is very clear and very simple. The same line exists for all modelling regardless of the end product a building or track or an item of stock.

 

That line is drawn as soon as you decide to alter parts or add to parts of a kit or RTR/RTP where those parts are not an off-the-shelf item.

 

So cutting sheet material is usually the first jump over the line into never-never land. 

 

Is it really scratch-building if you buy complete white metal cast chimneys with pots, etched brass windows, pre-moulded plastic sheets or pre-designed texture papers or plastic moulded doors and assemble them to form a structure?

So "no" to the pre-formed additions and "yes" to cutting plastic sheets.

[Spitfire2865]

I would have to say if youre not following a set of directions, its scratchbuilding. No one should be expected to cut their own window frames just to have it considered scratchbuilding. Many buy pre fabricated elements to add detail to a structure that they planned, cut, and assembled.

In the end, it comes down to the individuals preference. If they want to go ahead and cut out and cast every tiny detail themselves, then they can do that and we all can admire it and set back on our own personal standards.

If an argument arises on account of scratchbuilding or not, then theres something wrong with the view of the hobby. Its something we all do for fun and enjoyment.

I once scratchbuilt a 1:160th scale model of my grandfathers house. I used pre fabricated doors and windows and Im proud of that. I would have made a mess of them if I had to do it myself. Haha.

[N15class]

My thoughts are that if the majority of the parts are marked cut out by hand, using raw materials. Whether it be sheets of plasticard, brass etc. You do the majority of the forming either by hand or with rolling bars etc.

 

The use of say wheels and some castings does not detract from scratch building in my mine, I have just done a PLV that the wheels and the some of the brake gear were bought items. This is more for speed than lack of ability. but then the parts were altered to suit my needs.

 

I do not think designing on a computer for etching or cutting out on a machine is scratch buildin, to me that is designing and building a kit.

[Sandy Harper]

Now, I would disagree with Kenton. I build 7mm loco kits. If I want a prototype, that no kit exists for, then I have to 'scratch' build it. i.e. you need to cut metal, shape metal, turn metal etc. But, there are suppliers out there who have produced beautiful masters of 'bits' and will sell you castings made from them to save you the trouble of doing them yourself. Usually sold as 'scratch builder' packs or individually.

 

Wheels are usually bought in, motors and gearboxes are bought in but, at the end of the day you have produced something no one else has, or can buy, either RTR or kit built, therefore it is built ,by you, from scratch. That is my definition

 

If you take other definitions to their infinite conclusion then you would have to produce your own screws, nuts and bolts!

 

Sandy

[vulcanbomber]

I like my building to be unique which is why I scratch build. My starting point is the windows, which one's can I use and where can I get them from?

I think it would be difficult to make some of these windows your self.

I am attempting the window fro the corner shop however.

 

 

[Kenton]

 

Now, I would disagree with Kenton. I build 7mm loco kits. If I want a prototype, that no kit exists for, then I have to 'scratch' build it. i.e. you need to cut metal, shape metal, turn metal etc. But, there are suppliers out there who have produced beautiful masters of 'bits' and will sell you castings made from them to save you the trouble of doing them yourself. Usually sold as 'scratch builder' packs or individually.

 

Sandy, you are not disagreeing with me at all. Maybe I described it badly (not for the first time) Looking at it from the other side, as a scratch builder if you buy in parts to add that does not, in my mind, make you any less a scratch builder.

 

So by my definition if you cut your own plastic sheet to form a building and then buy a chimney that doesn't make you a "kit assembler".

 

But turning your own screws is extreme scratch building.

[N15class]

But turning your own screws is extreme scratch building.

When I trained (pun not intended) as a watchmaker we had to make all our screws, polished and blued heads, you try polishing the slot and keeping all the edges sharp. Without the use of chemicals.

[raymw]

I don't eat cornflakes so which brand should I buy in order to get the best cardboard box? Is that better than buying cardboard in a craft shop? Will anyone know? Will anyone care? Do I care what others may care?

 

fwiw, I, and many others, make nuts and bolts, cast metal from scrap, etc., because we can. By the same reasoning, I actually considered hot rolling rail from fencing wire,  I've already felled the tree for the sleepers. Other folk, for whatever reason, can't do these things, so they have to get the results they want in some other way. I suppose there is some sort of skill in buying what you think are the best parts, rtr model, whatever, and some sort of skill in making a 3d drawing for Shapeways/whoever, but they are different types of skills, not the same craft skill as scratching away at a piece of plasticard, cardboard or clay.

 

I'm thinking that it is more a case of using the simplest materials and tools you have to hand, or can easily acquire and adapt, compared to going out and buying specifics, that refers to the 'scratch' part. For example, Our dog's food comes in corrugated tins - left outside they rust nicely, ideal for derelict nissen huts, etc.  So, slice the tin in half, place on a low brick coloured plinth and the build is done. That is simpler and quicker than building a plastic kit and trying to put on artificial rust. I think we need a more precise definition

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[Clive Mortimore]

There was a guy who use to come to our club, one night he said that I was not a proper scratchbuilder because I made my diesels out of plastic card. Before I done anything two of my mates asked him where his scracthbuilt stock was. Thankfully.

All the locos, wagons, lights, buildings (apart from the Peco hut in the forground) and the two figures right at the back are not RTR or kits. They have bits like motors, wheels and chassis (wagons) that you can buy in a shop so are they scracthbuilt or not? the track is not handbuilt.

 

I don't care what you lot think because I enjoyed making them

[Sandy Harper]

 Sandy, you are not disagreeing with me at all. Maybe I described it badly (not for the first time) Looking at it from the other side, as a scratch builder if you buy in parts to add that does not, in my mind, make you any less a scratch builder.

 

So by my definition if you cut your own plastic sheet to form a building and then buy a chimney that doesn't make you a "kit assembler".

 

But turning your own screws is extreme scratch building.

Hi Kenton

I have re-read your second sentence and I now see it actually refers to the opposite to what I originally thought. So we agree!

 

Cheers

Sandy

[Stubby47]

I use pre-printed paper sheets to cover some buildings, on others I use pre-formed brick or stone plasticard sheets.

But what I'm making is not a kit, it's my own interpretation of a a real structure, so Yes, I'd consider that scratch-building.

A kit is a bought collection of parts which make a whole item - they just need putting together. Scratchbuilding is where you have to make at least some of the parts from 'raw' materials.

[ian@stenochs]

Hi,

 

I think that perhaps we are trying to be a wee bit to prescriptive here.  Its not the 'Scratchbuilding' or 'Kitbashing' that matters its the 'Model Making'!

If you are making a model, of whatever prototype you like, then I'm sure we all try to make the best miniature representation we can.  If there are existing parts, components, fittings etc which are suitable for that particular model fine and well. Why not use them if they meet your standard of quality?  Everyone in the real world buys in bits from multiple suppliers so if you need a door for your house there will be one on the shelf that is just right unless your house is a bit unique then you may need to have one made from scratch! If you need some wheels!!

 

I am a scratchbuilder choosing to model a prototype not well represented by the trade and thus forced into making virtually everything from 'Scratch'  However I have invested some of my time into making patterns for common components, tender axleboxes, buffers, etc. which I have had cast in brass or whitemetal.  This is a big time saver cutting out repetitive work and producing consistent results.  Platework I cut out on my pantograph miller for which I need to make plastic patterns.  Because of this I can then produce multiple copies of the parts, is this now a kit or an aid to scratchbuilding?

 

Where do we draw the line? Can you describe someone who assembles a model and then employs someone else to paint it a proper modeller?

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian.

 

 

 

 

[Kenton]

 

Scratch building is where you have to make at least some of the parts from 'raw' materials.

The only question is what are 'raw' materials the solder, the etched parts, the motor/gear box ... lets not loose sight of the fact that the assembling of those 'parts' requires skill. We would like to think of it being a clear line to cross, but in reality it is still a bit fuzzy. Even I, who is content to be called an assembler and no scratch builder, have frequently resorted to cutting sheet brass. Although I see that instantly as scratch building, I don't see myself as a scratch builder for doing so. It is merely having to correct a fault/omission in the kit as provided. Changing the kit to build something it was not intended to be would be something beyond my desire. Fortunately there enough kits out there to keep me busy for my lifetime.

 

Like almost everything in modelling different things interest different folk, we make our own choices.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It's all fuzzy, because even the scratchiest of scratchbuilders, drawing his own wire or cutting screws is dependent on earlier technique, much of which skill is now almost completely lost. All our technology ultimately hangs on some fellow starting from a piece of flint and fantastic abilites with plant and animal materials, that only a person dedicated to relearning in Ray Mears' style can reacquire.

 

It's real fun watching industrial archaeologists try to reproduce known early technique like smelting copper. They have the superb artefacts to prove that people many thousands of years ago could extract high grade copper. They have the excavated 'factory' sites where the deed was evidently done. Even with all the current knowledge of the reduction process conditions required  - and the means to measure very accurately the temperature and reducing conditions which those long ago smelters didn't have - they struggle to perform the task with the replica process equipment to the point of getting any vaguely usable copper.

 

The best definition of scratchbuilding - already touched on above - has to be on the lines of the majority of the construction is from parts drawn out, cut out, formed and assembled, by the builder.

[RhBBob]

As I said on this group elsewhere this morning, my modelling is always 'home made', thus avoiding the quality that goes with 'scratch built'.

 

Since I have for the last 58 years used a lot of recycled household materials, I cannot see how I could construct my own cardboard boxes nor any clear plastic containers nor indeed those interesting items that will 'come in useful one day' 

[Chubber]

  The only question is what are 'raw' materials the solder, the etched parts, the motor/gear box ... lets not loose sight of the fact that the assembling of those 'parts' requires skill. We would like to think of it being a clear line to cross, but in reality it is still a bit fuzzy. Even I, who is content to be called an assembler and no scratch builder, have frequently resorted to cutting sheet brass. Although I see that instantly as scratch building, I don't see myself as a scratch builder for doing so. It is merely having to correct a fault/omission in the kit as provided. Changing the kit to build something it was not intended to be would be something beyond my desire. Fortunately there enough kits out there to keep me busy for my lifetime.

 

Like almost everything in modelling different things interest different folk, we make our own choices.

 

[Just to say I was originally confining my observations to structure modelling, the only part of the hobby I'm remotely entitled to comment on...]

 

 

 

You seem to be leaning towards an analogy I have just thought of....Kit Cars.

 

You buy a kit of parts, body shell, chassis components, brackets to attach bits and pieces, and then go out and source a Triumph Herald front suspension and steering rack, an ex-Cortina engine, wheels from a Triumph Sodomite and so on, and produce a viable and acceptable car which pleases your eye, pocket and life-style.

 

You are not 'scratch-building' the car,are you?

 

So, F1 teams who build chassis, suspension etc and then add a Mercedes engine, where do they fall? I'd call them 'car constructors', wouldn't you?

 

In the days of my hero, John Ahern, [who in addition to his 'scenics' was a fine miniature locomotive engineer as the folks from the 2mm Society will readily attest], really did scratch-build, making and winding armatures for his micro-models, turning wheels and rolling boiler shells as he had to SCRATCH AROUND to find materials and components. However, even JA didn't make his own paints!

 

Some of his scenic structures used 'Merco' texture papers, but many of the predominately render finished buildings used brown envelope paper turned inside out, painted with watercolour or gouache so could equally well be defined as 'scratchers'.

 

I only recall one undeniably 'scratch-built' structure [as opposed to little knick-knack], a grounded van body which started life as a diagram in a magazine [i think] and a plastic container that previously held a chilled 'ready meal', jolly good it was too!

 

I agree, assembling parts of a model takes skill, not for one second do I denigrate the ability to build something to a high standard, whether or not you make the components, neither would I suggest that a 'scratch-built' privvy is a more intrinsically valuable object that the same building built from a kit.

 

 

 

Kenton

 

Like almost everything in modelling different things interest different folk, we make our own choices.

 

 

Long may it be so, I have enjoyed reading the responses above, thank you for posting,

 

Doug

[cheesysmith]

I disagree in the assertion that using a computer and a cutting tool like the cameo isnt scratch building. Just look at jcl's thread where he has used said tools to make a GCR Barnum coach from plasticard or Ron heggs Manchester central where he is now using the same equipment to make the bridges. Jcl's has shared the cutting plans for his coach on here so anyone can make one themselves but I would still consider it scratch building as all he has provided is the cutting plans for you. Unless we all go out and measure what we are building ourselves, you are always relying on someone else's work in some degree. I just find the above two peoples use of modern tools like computers and robo cutters to be showing a new way to work towards what our goal has always been, namely advancing our playing toy trains.

 

Ps. That last sentence was meant to be ironic and self depreciating.

[sej]

Hi, I like to look at this by shoe-horning in a Doctor Who metaphor, as you do.

 

Scratch-building can be viewed as a continuum (that's the Dr Who bit) starting from the first time you alter a shop bought model, through kit building and leading toward the production of a model that's almost completely constructed by yourself, up to and including the nuts and bolts if that's what ticks your boxes.

 

I enjoy the steady acquisition of skills and competance and the enormous satisfaction involved in building my own, unique model, keeping a gentle and untroubled eye on its comparison in quality to the work of others; you can always improve upon it each time you build something, as you merrily shuffle along the continuum to the next place that suits you.

 

I suppose it boils down to the pleasure the process produces. Just like Doctor Who.

[Stubby47]

Wouldn't the abilities of Dr Who be useful when exhibition deadlines are looming....

 

"So, you'll have the layout finished by next week ?"

 

" Yep, no problems, should only take me about 6 months."

[N15class]

I disagree in the assertion that using a computer and a cutting tool like the cameo isnt scratch building. Just look at jcl's thread where he has used said tools to make a GCR Barnum coach from plasticard or Ron heggs Manchester central where he is now using the same equipment to make the bridges. Jcl's has shared the cutting plans for his coach on here so anyone can make one themselves but I would still consider it scratch building as all he has provided is the cutting plans for you. Unless we all go out and measure what we are building ourselves, you are always relying on someone else's work in some degree. I just find the above two peoples use of modern tools like computers and robo cutters to be showing a new way to work towards what our goal has always been, namely advancing our playing toy trains.

 

Ps. That last sentence was meant to be ironic and self depreciating.

If you are getting a set of parts already to stick together to me that is a kit. You need a plan to build coaches, if jcl is supplying a plan it still requires skill to cut the parts. If it is instructions for your machine to make the parts it then becomes a kit, as you have used none of your own skill in the making of the parts.

 From what I have read about Rons bridges etc most are done by hand.

[raymw]

It's probably an age thing, too. Many of us were kids during ww2, and afterwards, Often the whole ethos was 'make do and mend', keep things that may come in useful. The things we did back then, would most likely be illegal now -  making explosives, carrying and using lock knives, etc.

 

Meccano is no more (replaced by clip together plastic bricks), maybe mothers no longer re-knit jumpers, fewer open fires so less sticks, gadgets were not sealed for life - heck, never mind the newer 'so called' security screws, the philip's head screw was fancy back then, and there weren't any gadgets! So, I expect age may come into this - whether or not we are in favour of 'cheque book modelling'.

 

Then, of course, for younger folk with a young family, there has to be other things now, the 'modern caring man' image, the time wasted talking to your kids, when a quick whack across the legs would get the desired result, longer working hours, (if you're unlucky enough to have a job) pressures of advertising to get you and yours to buy things you don't need - mobile phones, sky tv and the like.

 

Such is the rich fabric of life.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[14Steve14]

I believe that scratch building is anything that does not come as a supplied set of parts to make a model. If you buy a kit and then alter that kit, you are kit bashing and not scratch building. If you make the model using a set of pre drawn plans then you are scratch building, as there is no kit to be used. You may even draw your own plans from a photo, or the actual building. In scratch building you can use pre made components if you wish, such as windows, if it is easier than making better ones yourself.

 

What I do believe is that a lot of people do not possess the skills, or confidence, required to scratch build a model, when in fact they are not that much different from building a kit. All you need is the skills to think the project through from the planning to the building.

[t-b-g]

This discussion has cropped in in a few threads from time to time.

 

I genuinely don't believe that there is just one answer and that it is the descriptions of models that are too narrow for some models to fit into.

 

We really have a whole range from a straight RTR through to a complete scratchbuild yet we try to limit the descriptions, in the main, to RTR, Kit or Scratchbuilt.

 

I have tried, many times, to pin down a proper definition of what constitutes "scratcbuilding" and I can always find a set of circumstances that cause me to alter it.

 

As an example, a friend of mine designed some etched kits, which are now on sale through a trader. One was of an 0-6-0 tender loco. He wanted a different class of loco that used a lot of common components with the kit so he took an etch, made some new bits from scratch and used them and around 75% of parts from the kit.

 

There was no "kit" for this class of loco and there were no instructions so is it a modified kitbuild or a scratchbuild?

 

Look at Tim's Stanier 2-6-0, which he described on RMWeb. Many bits chopped up from RTR locos with some bits scrounged from kits and a number of parts made from scratch. There is no current descriptive word that covers such a thing.

 

With the items being made by JCL, Mike Trice and Ron Heggs, I think that some of the work they are doing is outstanding and is really pushing back the boundaries of the hobby.

 

What we really need is a new term or phrase to describe that sort of work. To me, it is not really scratchbuilding because the items they have created could be mass produced and others could have exactly the same components pretty much at the touch of a button. They have designed and produced their own components but it is more akin to designing and producing a kit of parts than it is to scratchbuilding.

 

It is not denigrating their work in any way by saying it is not scratchbuilding, I just think that it is a different set of skills that they have used and it needs a new name to set it apart.

 

Likewise, with 3D printing. Drawing something in CAD and then having a machine print it is more of a manufacturing process than it is scratchbuilding. Perhaps "built from home produced components" or something similar but more snappy would cover it. 

 

Then you get a model where the main parts are cut from sheet metal/plastic and the details are all added from 3D/etched from your own design/cut on a Cameo cutter and pinning it down becomes almost impossible.

 

There must be a point at which RTR modification and kit construction, using some RTR/kit/home produced parts crosses over into scratchbuilding without the need for quarrying your own ore to make the metal but I haven't found the line yet and I doubt that we ever will.

 

Perhaps what we need to do is to lose the idea that some have that scratchbuilding is the ultimate in modelling. This leads some folk to want their models to be classed as scratchbult when they are not really. Some brilliant and highly creative models have been produced by other means and I have seen some pretty ropey scratchbult models. So breaking down the slight snobbishness that regards scratchbuilding as the holy grail would be a big step forward.

 

Having said that, I do enjoy building things from scratch. I may not build the best models and many a kit or RTR model may be better than mine but it is truly satisfying to take a sheet of metal/plastic and turn it into something that has a lot of "me" in it!

 

I am happy to use such parts as I can get hold of but as long as the major components are cut out by my own fair hand, I am happy that scratchbuilding is what I am doing.

 

Tony

[mike morley]

Tony

 

As so often in the past - several goods points, all well made.