LNER Signals controlling movement from sidings to running lines

[ColHut]

G'day wise ones.

 

I was looking a little more closely at the LNER signalling requirements for moves from a siding to a running line.

Assuming the siding had a head shunt (or similar line to other sidings etc), it would seem that a single small yellow semaphore arm could control access to the running line (with appropriate interlocking of points and signals), and be passed without being lowered for movement to the head shunt or other siding.  At least such things seem to be referred to in the regulations.  My question, is what do single small yellow semaphore arms look like in terms of markings etc?  Or am I confused and the reference is really to discs with yellow bands or standard small semaphore stop signals

 

Regs below.

 

1931 version:

GROUND SIGNALS (DISC OR DWARF),

SEMAPHORE SIGNALS WITH SMALL

ARMS, AND SMALL COLOUR LIGHT

SIGNALS, USED IN PLACE OF DISC

OR DWARF SIGNALS.

 

47. Disc or dwarf signals, semaphore signals with small

arms, and small colour light signals, are used to regulate

the passage of trains from a siding to a running line,

from a running line to a siding, between one

running line and another, and to control shunting

operations.

 

In cases where these signals have a yellow disc or

arm or exhibit a yellow light they may be passed,

without being lowered, for movements in a direction

for which the signal when lowered does not apply.

 

1937 version -

Draw-ahead and Shunting Signals:-

47. Draw-ahead signals, where provided, are

placed below stop Signals not controlling the

entrance to the section ahead.

 

Shunting signals are used to regulate the

passage of trains from a siding to a running line.

from a running line to a siding, between one

running line and another. and to control shunting

operations.

 

Draw-ahead and shunting signals apply when

lowered as far as the line is clear towards the

next signal only, but the lowering or turning off

of such signals does not authorise the next

signal to be passed at Danger.

 

Shunting signals of the types described below

may be passed. without being turned off or

lowered. for movements in a direction for which

the 'signal when turned off or lowered does not

apply:-

Signal having a yellow arm or disc.

" “ “yellow arm on a white disc.

" " "yellow light.

Position light signal having yellow and white

lights.

 

[micknich2003]

Minature Yellow arms are identical to the red version, except they are coloured yellow in lue of red.

[ColHut]

Thanks  Mick.

 

I finally found a real pic on the Southern E Group website:

 

http://www.semgonline.com/proto/semaphore_10.html and on the preceding page.

 

regards

[bécasse]

But that is the Southern take on the issue, not the LNER's.......... a bit like saying Aussies and Kiwis are much the same thing!

 

The LNER's yellow discs were just like the red ones except for the colour of the stripe (which I suspect was topped and bottomed by black lining as was the LMSR equivalent), but I don't remember ever having seen an LNER yellow arm although they must have existed as the LNER was probably keener on using miniature arms (rather than discs) at the exits from sidings and loops than any of the other big four.

[micknich2003]

Attached photo of an LNER style Yellow disc, there is a plain Yellow Band and no black edging.

[Judge Dread]

I trust we are going to hear more from you, young man, now you are a man of leisure. Welcome to the club. By the way, we still meet Mondays and Thursdays down at the shed.

[micknich2003]

I trust we are going to hear more from you, young man, now you are a man of leisure. Welcome to the club. By the way, we still meet Mondays and Thursdays down at the shed.

Thanks Judge, yes I know you still meet twice a week at the hut, I'm in contact with Jeff and Mal. I have been doing a lot of research on behalf of the new 7mm project and I will shortly be burning a few disks.

[Judge Dread]

Thanks Judge, yes I know you still meet twice a week at the hut, I'm in contact with Jeff and Mal. I have been doing a lot of research on behalf of the new 7mm project and I will shortly be burning a few disks.

10 minutes to reply, you're not getting old are you Mike? Look forward to seeing you soon then.

[ColHut]

But that is the Southern take on the issue, not the LNER's..........

Agreed, cannot seem to find a picture in colour of the real deal.  Still looking.

 

 

 

a bit like saying Aussies and Kiwis are much the same thing!

 

 

Well they nearly are, for some things

 

I should know

[ColHut]

Thanks Mick, nice pic of the disc detail

 

regards

[micknich2003]

[attachment=
 

 

Thanks Mick, nice pic of the disc detail

 

regards

[micknich2003]

A few more close ups.

[ColHut]

Hmmm,  So Mick has a black and white digital camera and lives at the station

 

Thanks for the close up rear detail too!

 

regards

[Shadow]

Here's one from Raynham park station

 

[micknich2003]

Col, they are scans of Black and White views I took in the '80's, and like everyone else, I live in a house. Plenty more of signals and S&T detail if you want them.

[ColHut]

Thanks Mick!

 

Some look like they are wire operated, some by rods, or is the rodding on 'LNER Ground disc1' just part of a locking or interlocking mechanism?

 

The white 'diamonds' are to indicate track circuiting?

 

regards

[micknich2003]

Col, they are all wire worked, the rods you can see are the mechanical Detector slides. Yes, the White Diamonds indicate a TC, and exemption to Rule 55 etc.

[micknich2003]

 

 Mechanical Detection detalis.

 

.

[ColHut]

Thanks all,

 

Much appreciated.

 

If anyone does happen to have a picture of an LNER single small yellow semaphore arm like the Southern Railways one linked to above those excellent disc image, I would love to see it.

 

regards

[LNERGE]

No9 on this diagram is a yellow miniature arm.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/6613237557/in/photolist-b5oz8c-4JeoUG-jEnAzv-jEoVXY-jEoVBN-jEmFup-jEpCay-4JemYu-4Ja9Rv-71yTtD-6Ua2Ak-8M4N9U-4Jaa8r-4Jenfs-fEP4Wf-ngpSP-ciMURW-8WrNsj-8WrNyA-8WrNZJ-8WoKs6-8WrNS1-8WoKmp-7a9wP3-gPADvA-9wH3K4-faVVAk-fbbaPf-7KgaG9-9pE8DS-4JeoHG-4Ja9nz-4Jenrd-4Ja88a-4Ja8nH-4Ja9Dn-aabE7q-cVognN-bSVehR-4ej5w2-bmGqVm-hwbSTu-hwbWKN-8snMaa-9PEZce-jEZwqQ-faVZep-8M1KwT-5Ej2hS-crvGow

 

I'm working on a picture..

[ColHut]

Outstanding,

 

I trawled loads of diagrams but they were all in black and white.

 

The signal engineers on our mythical LNER layout at Little Pigglington offer you free 3rd class travel anywhere on the line.

 

regards

[LNERGE]

I have the post on my 'train set' but it now has a main arm. The original arm still exists and i have emailed the owner for a picture..

[ColHut]

Thanks for that.  Looking forward to seeing it 

[kenw]

Don't think I've a pic, but there was a yellow miniature arm at Wearmouth Jnc from the Yard to Down Main, with a short headshunt straight ahead. It was mounted on the main post of the bracket carrying the adjacent Down Main signal.

The Southern one shown on web site referenced above is unusually large, they were normally the same size as normal miniature arm shunt signals, just yellow / black band instead of red / white, and yellow lens instead of red.

 

Generally, as already stated, LNER yellow disc signals were yellow band on white disc, but Hall Dene did have a yellow on black one.

 

Also on the Southern web site referenced, when giving descriptions of signals, unfortunate use of regional slang, they were never 'dummys' in the NE

[Loxborough]

Resurrecting this interesting and informative topic with (if I may) a supplementary question about which I have been wondering for some time...

 

My understanding of shunting signals is that they indicate that they indicate that points are set for a given route and that a train may move along that route as long as it is clear, but thay they do not necessarily indicate that the track is clear. ie driver is to proceed with caution, be ready to stop etc. All well and good when setting back into a siding or puffing too and fro in a shunting yard. How does this work, though, where a disc indicates a route onto a main line; does the driver set off at a slow speed, half expecting to come across another train, or is there some special arrangement whereby a shunting signal onto a main line indicates that the line is clear?

 

Or have I got it totally wrong?

 

Thanks all,

 

G