WCML class 50's

[skiddaw]

Can anyone out there provide information about the transition to electric haulage on the wcml north of Preston in the early 70's. I know it was about May 1974 but would like to know if it was a quick change over, ie did the wires get switched on for the whole route or was there a period where trains ran to Carlisle say and changed to diesel. It would make a most interesting focus for a layout with electrics being changed for class 50's at Carlisle. This presumably happened further south at some point.

Dates times pictures would be very interesting.

Thanks

[ColinK]

I too would be delighted to learn more about 50s on the WCML. I've seen very little in books and magazines about it. I was still at school then and can just about remember having north west rover tickets and watching locos being changed at Preston and riding on the 50's between Preston and Lancaster, with many working being double headed. The acceleration with a pair of 50s was very impressive, as was the noise. I keep hoping someone will release archive video of the 50's north of Preston.

 

Your idea for a layout based on this Skiddaw would be really interesting.

[Pandora]

I was not aware of the changeover at Preston, In the early 70s  I spent my time on the platforms at the country end of  Crewe Station,  where an Electric would be uncoupled  for pairs of fifties, a procedure which I must have observed a hundred + occasions, it was also possible to see the freshly prepped 50 leaving  Crewe depot,   by walking down the tarmac ramp from the station road overbridge down to the diesel depot you could stand and watch the  pairs of 50s shunting out over the handpoints, usually sliding to a halt  wheels locked,  the  rails were so polished, before they headed to the station to await their diagrammed turn.

[slilley]

The Jane's Rail Portfolio book on the Class 50s has a picture in there of 50022 and 50041 having just taken over  from an electric on 27 March 1974. The changeover point moved north from Crewe to Preston in July 1973 according to the book. Page 16 and 17 if you are interested.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....I've extracted the traffic & traction style sections from all 1960s/70s and 80s rail related magazines....reading these progressively gives an accurate picture of WCML developments at this time and in date order too. I'll have a look see but would recommend equipping yourselves with similar in order to understand the transition throughly.

 

Modern Railways for June 73 states that the Crewe - Preston section was originally meant to be energised from May 1973 but this has now been postponed until July 1973.

 

There are pictures of single 86s hauling 600 ton test trains of steel coils between Carstairs & Beattock in the July 1973 issue of Modern Railways.

 

Railway Magazine Aug 73 states that only 2 overnight WCML anglo-Scottish services are rostered for 2x50 whilst around half of the daytime services are so rostered. Cl 47 substitutions are not uncommon.

 

The Oct 73 Railway Magazine reports at least 2 northbound WCML services diverted via Wigan Wallgate and Lostock jnc with a class 50 at each end for the reversal.

 

First electrically hauled test train to arrive in Carlisle from the north was on Aug 22nd 1973. E3161 hauled it. Railway Magazine Nov 73.

 

Two freightliner services out of Coatbridge were rostered for electric traction from March 1974. Modern Railways April 1974.

 

Railway Magazine June 1974 reports increasing numbers of class 85 and 86 locos in the Glasgow area on training runs in preparation for full electrification.

 

Railway Magazine July 1974 states that from Apr 1974 there will be 2 daily London - Carlisle/Glasgow workings in each direction diagrammed for electric traction throughout. The same magazine also details what it calls the final few weeks of class 50 operation north of Crewe.

 

A royal inspection cab ride from Lancaster to Oxenholme on a Preston to Glasgow test working, with the Queen and Prince Phillip in 87018 took place on May 7th says Modern Railways July 1974. The same magazine details 50012 to be one of the last 50s in the Carstairs area assisting failures.

 

Dave 

[stovepipe]

There were still about a dozen class 50s in use in the North-West up to spring 1976, nearly 2 years after full electric working started on 6 May 1974. They worked the Liverpool portions of the Glasgow trains, changing over from an electric at Preston,

 

50022 on Liverpool Lime Street - 8th August, 1974 by Deadman's Handle, on Flickr

 

and also many of the expresses diverted over the S&C at weekends.

 

https://flic.kr/p/cEbbah

[luckymucklebackit]

Just to clarify one point above, the two freightliner services out of Coatbridge that were rostered for electric traction from March 1974 were diesel hauled from Coatbridge to Braidhurst Loop (Motherwell), where the electrics took over, the haulage being pairs of class 87s which were stabled in the loops adjacent to Motherwell Station during the day.  Coatbridge FLT did not get electrified until August 1981.

 

Jim

[Talltim]

Its a great subject for a layout, double headed 50s on expresses. I've probably missed it, but I've never seen a model of WCML 50s and the diesel-electric loco-swaps would make a great set piece. However I've always had the impression that they only happened at Crewe, which is a bit large for a model. Its interesting to learn of the swaps at Preston for the Liverpool trains, and it appears on all services for a while.

There's nothing to stop you applying a little modeller licence and assuming that the juice was switched on in sections and modelling the time when Carlisle was the changeover point.

[johnd]

The 50's also worked the Manchester/Liverpool - Glasgow/Edinburgh trains which worked as one train from Preston to Carstairs, the Manchester portion going to Glasgow and the Liverpool portion going to Edinburgh.

 

Sorry but can't remember if both locos were used on the middle section but 50's certainly arrived in Manchester, the portion that included the Kithchen/Dining cars I think went to Liverpool. Had a very enjoyable meal on a day return to Edinburgh with my wife ( to be ) we were the only ones dining on the train.

[Rugd1022]

It's not often mentioned but 50s still came down well south of Crewe while the changeovers were gong on, on overnight liner trains or other workings driven by Crewe men, when the booked electric wasn't available for whatever reason - not exactly rare, but not too common either. There's the odd mention in traffic reports in magazines of the day but alas photographic evidence is pretty scarce, I'd imagine this is because of the lack of photographers about in the hours of darkness.

 

If I were building a layout based on the WCML south of Crewe in the early '70s I wouldn't think twice about having a couple of pre-Tops blue examples.

 

Edit : forgot to metion - when 400, 401 and 402 were transferred to the WR they still managed to find themselves back under the wires for short periods as they went to Willesden TMD during crewe training and (I think) tyre turning.

[Edwin_m]

Wouldn't 50s also have worked from the Western to Birmingham on Cross Country turns? 

[stovepipe]

Here's a very nice shot at Hellifield on 23 September 1974, a Monday. I guess they would have come from Crewe or Wigan via Blackburn.

 

Northbound freights, on a wet day at Hellifield. by delticfan, on Flickr

[Rugd1022]

Wouldn't 50s also have worked from the Western to Birmingham on Cross Country turns? 

 

That was much later on Edwin, after the entire class had been transferred away from the WCML, and well into the refurbishment programme. That's not to say they might not have worked up to Brum from Bristol or Gloucester occasionally from 1972 onwards, although I've never come across any published references to such workings, in any case, the NE / SW services were booked for 47 or Peak haulage at the time. 400 went to Bath Road at the end of '72, spending inordinate amounts of time sat idle in the shed, followed by 401 and 402 which both went to Old Oak for crew training in early '73, then the others followed in dribs and drabs over the next two years or so. They were put to work at first on Padd - Bristol jobs and then on Padd - West of England jobs via the Berks & Hants. 50 027 went to Laira for crew training in early '74 (it was the first 50 to cross the Tamar too), and it was quite a while before any were regularly seen going north from Bristol up the Lickey on booked workings. The only reason I can think for them going this way is to get them to and from Doncaster Works, which took responsibility for them after Crewe had finished with them.

 

 

Edit : just after I pressed 'post reply' a light bulb went on in my head... I'm sure I read somewhere that towards the end of the transfer period from the LMR to WR, Crewe wanted to keep a few of their '50s back to continue working north of the wired section of the WCML. I'm sure the WR would have been very happy to send the lot back in one fell swoop but they were stuck with them!

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

Edit : just after I pressed 'post reply' a light bulb went on in my head... I'm sure I read somewhere that towards the end of the transfer period from the LMR to WR, Crewe wanted to keep a few of their '50s back to continue working north of the wired section of the WCML. I'm sure the WR would have been very happy to send the lot back in one fell swoop but they were stuck with them!

About ten remained on the LMR until spring 1976.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....and overhauls at Crewe works kept them in the vicinity until Doncaster too over, towards 1980.

 

Dave

[beast66606]

About ten remained on the LMR until spring 1976.

 

They worked coal trains from Birkenhead to Fiddlers - 50012 and 50022 are two I have recorded, I also have more, just got to find the notes.

[Downendian]

That was much later on Edwin, after the entire class had been transferred away from the WCML, and well into the refurbishment programme. That's not to say they might not have worked up to Brum from Bristol or Gloucester occasionally from 1972 onwards, although I've never come across any published references to such workings, in any case, the NE / SW services were booked for 47 or Peak haulage at the time. 400 went to Bath Road at the end of '72, spending inordinate amounts of time sat idle in the shed, followed by 401 and 402 which both went to Old Oak for crew training in early '73, then the others followed in dribs and drabs over the next two years or so. They were put to work at first on Padd - Bristol jobs and then on Padd - West of England jobs via the Berks & Hants. 50 027 went to Laira for crew training in early '74 (it was the first 50 to cross the Tamar too), and it was quite a while before any were regularly seen going north from Bristol up the Lickey on booked workings. The only reason I can think for them going this way is to get them to and from Doncaster Works, which took responsibility for them after Crewe![/i]

Actually although I don't have records of trains actually worked, BNS-Bristol services were often worked by 50s on their arrival from the LMR to the WR. I distinctly remember 50 035 doing this (when I cleared my class 50s on such a service). LMR 50s around 1976 still had the "double arrow" livery, whilst WR a single arrow amidships (remembering around this time they were not named), and new arrivals instantly recognised by this feature. They were also pressed (albeit rare) on Northbound services from Bristol. I have my friend's late 70s early 80s bashing logs, will look out some services operated by WR 50s on SW-NW trains.

[stovepipe]

It seems that in August 1975 the 50s got along the Cumbrian coast too:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-15th-september/page-21&do=findComment&comment=1519064

 

Change of traction at Preston I presume.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....I was at school in Cheadle, Staffordshire in the late 70s when one rolled in with the then daily sand/gravel working from Cockshute yard, Stoke....has to be one of the least likely 50 outposts!

 

Dave

[Ray M]

The 50's also worked the Manchester/Liverpool - Glasgow/Edinburgh trains which worked as one train from Preston to Carstairs, the Manchester portion going to Glasgow and the Liverpool portion going to Edinburgh.

 

Sorry but can't remember if both locos were used on the middle section but 50's certainly arrived in Manchester, the portion that included the Kithchen/Dining cars I think went to Liverpool. Had a very enjoyable meal on a day return to Edinburgh with my wife ( to be ) we were the only ones dining on the train.

i can remember passing 421/447 on the front of a rake of Mk1s,

 at Collyhust st, on a Sunday morning, in the very early 70s.

I was travelling on a TP unit to Manchester Victoria for the steady walk over to

Piccadilly, And then on to Crewe for the afternoon walk around the works.

The pair of 50s followed us down the hill  into Man Vic, as soon as the TP left.

[luckymucklebackit]

Its at times like this that you miss dreadful.org, a veritable mine of information of all workings abut this time.

 

Jim

[Branksome71B]

IIRC, the WCML passenger electrification services came into full operation from the commencement of Summer 1974 timetable. Class 50s continued for a time on the Liverpool - Preston portion of Glasgow/Edinburgh services but their days on WCML were virtually over.

The Paddington - Birmingham services were handled by 50s in 1976/7 after final withdrawal of Westerns. As an aside, the first Paddington - Birmingham to call at Birmingham International was 50 hauled, I know coz I was the Station Announcer there on the day and made specific mention of welcoming Western Region services. The only regular diagram for a 50 on the Bristol - NW in 1977 was the overnight Plymouth - Glasgow Sleeper (Plymouth Summer Only, from Bristol in Winter) which could load to 16 and a 50 was considered the only loco of maintaining the timings. Before the nickname Hoover was adopted, they were known as 50/50s as reliability on the W.R. was initially very poor after their usage on the WCML.

[Downendian]

Sorry to drag this away from the WCML again, but I recall another regular 50 diagram from the NW which presumably was operated from BNS or Gloucester. It arrived in Bristol around 7.30pm, and remember it because an acquaintance caught it home from work from Rolls Royce to Weston-super-Mare, specifically because it was 50 hauled. Looking at my WTT it was probably 1V95 Glasgow-Taunton which was rostered for ETH stock in 1976-1979. The lunchtime Bristol Parkway service that sometimes delivered the LMR 50 was probably 1V76 Liverpool-Penzance which was rostered for aircon stock. Most Northbound trains around this time were mk1s, thus ETH stock were only operated by 47/4, 45/1 or 50s, and very rarely BR 31/4s.

 

Neil

[Rugd1022]

....I was at school in Cheadle, Staffordshire in the late 70s when one rolled in with the then daily sand/gravel working from Cockshute yard, Stoke....has to be one of the least likely 50 outposts!

 

Dave

 

Probably a Crewe man banging some overtime in!

[stovepipe]

Its at times like this that you miss dreadful.org, a veritable mine of information of all workings abut this time.

 

Jim

 Yes indeed. Does anyone know what happened to the site and whether it is likely to make a return?

 

Also the timewarp.algebratis.com one by clayhead is much missed.