Bachmann Warflats

[Peter Bedding]

Having followed the discussion on the Pill Box Brake Van, I noticed that some useful, facts have been emerging on the subject of the upcoming Warflats; one posting has referred to the loads. So I have opened this new topic (hopefully with Mod approval) so that I can keep track.

 

I know nothing of AFVs, (apart from what I can find via Google ) so the facts emerging on Cromwells/Comets is all of interest.

 

Have Bachmann given advance information on this?

[JSpencer]

Bachmann gave info last year saying they were scanning 2 Cromwell tanks from the Bovington tank museum, and that they would do 2 different Cromwell models.

 

The tanks in the photos on the war flats are Cromwells so that fits in well.

 

The Cromwell tank design has a complex history, several different hull designs, turret variants and guns. The complex history can be found on the web, suffice to say, mixing the hulls, guns etc can produce lots of variants.

 

The tank museum - as far as I can tell - has only one Cromwell tank. This is a MkIV with a D type hull (easy escape hatch for the co driver machine gunner but not for the driver!).

This particular combination has been modeled in 1/72nd by just about everyone (Revell, Hobbymaster, Ixomodels, Armourfast) and also in 1/76 by Airfix. Bachmann look as though they will add another Mk IV D to a pretty large family!

 

So what could the second variant be?

 

Assuming there is no second Cromwell at Bovington, the postwar warflat will probably carry a Comet which is a upgraded Cromwell. An example exists at Bovington.

The Comet tank was an attempt to fit a more powerful gun into a Cromwell. It was a compromise design in many respects.

It used a Cromwell F type hull (now both Driver and machine gunner could escape easily!). It used a modified 17 pounder anti tank gun. I say modified because while the 17 pounder was a powerful anti tank gun, capable of stopping Tiger and panther tanks in their tracks! it was too cumbersome to fit inside a British tank ( which were designed quite narrow in order to be transported by rail and therefore fit a very tight British loading gauge).

US Sherman's were converted to carry this gun, but to fit one in a Cromwell required design of both the turret and the gun.

The result was the Comet.

[Matt]

When I first met the wife she was assistant curator at the bovington tank museum. If I'd only paid attention to her work... Just asked her about the Cromwell and she said they did have one but that was about all she could remember. 5 years clearing up baby sick and it's all gone.

[wamwig]

The Tank Museum at Bovington also has a Centaur (same hull as the Cromwell) Dozer and a Centaur anti aircraft turret, so maybe its one of those?

[JSpencer]

For thèse wondering, the Centaur tank preceded the Cromwell in design. Same hull and turret but equipped with a Liberty engine. Cromwell,s used Meteor engines (tank version of the Spitfire Merlin's).

Actually the above is a generalisation, as you will find exceptions to those norms.

 

I doubt Bachmann will do a turret less dozed version, welcome thought it would be. I am a bit sceptical about the AA version (anti aircraft) too. Both the Dozer and AA variants were converted types, using redundant tanks in secondary roles and are not production vehicles.

[wamwig]

For those who might be interested the Tank Museum also has an A24 Cavalier (basically the Nuffield version of the Cromwell and also with a Liberty engine) in its reserve collection (unrestored and not on public display) along with a further A24 (probably on the Isle of Wight) that I believe donated its turret to one of the 'Centaurs' displayed in Normandy, however I agree that its probably likely to be a Cromwell and a Comet, the AA Centaur would be nice though.

[Fat Controller]

For thèse wondering, the Centaur tank preceded the Cromwell in design. Same hull and turret but equipped with a Liberty engine. Cromwell,s used Meteor engines (tank version of the Spitfire Merlin's).

Actually the above is a generalisation, as you will find exceptions to those norms.

 

I doubt Bachmann will do a turret less dozed version, welcome thought it would be. I am a bit sceptical about the AA version (anti aircraft) too. Both the Dozer and AA variants were converted types, using redundant tanks in secondary roles and are not production vehicles.

Wasn't the Centaur the tank converted (was it fitted with a howitzer?) to give the Royal Marines embarked artillery on their landing crafts on D-Day? There seem to be quite a few scattered around road junctions on the eastern extremities of the beaches; were they abandoned for some reason, or were they sent back there later?

[bigherb]

Bachmann gave info last year saying they were scanning 2 Cromwell tanks from the Bovington tank museum, and that they would do 2 different Cromwell models.

 

The tank museum - as far as I can tell - has only one Cromwell tank. This is a MkIV with a D type hull

 

I only found one.

I think the other one is at Duxford.

 

Interesting Factory where the Meteor engines where made, not rail connected unfortunately.

 

[wamwig]

Wasn't the Centaur the tank converted (was it fitted with a howitzer?) to give the Royal Marines embarked artillery on their landing crafts on D-Day? There seem to be quite a few scattered around road junctions on the eastern extremities of the beaches; were they abandoned for some reason, or were they sent back there later?

 

Yes the Royal Marines used the close support Centaur on D-Day and for a few days afterwards, I believe the one at Pegasus Bridge is an original, although roadwheels and other parts may well have been replaced when it was restored the first time (it has been restored again for the 70th anniversay this year), although the one at Hermanville-sur-mer is more of a hybrid with the turret from one the Tank Museums Cavaliers mounted on a former Centaur dozer, having been 'restored' at the IWM at Duxford.

[JSpencer]

The Centaur was used to provide fire support to British and Canadian units in the opening stages of a landing. They were organised as troops of 5 (4 Centaurs plus one Sherman as command), and there were enough troops to make a total of 100 tanks. They were not deployed as a big unit but rather as fire support groups.

They acted more as mobile armoured artillery pieces rather than as tanks. Operating very close to the front line but not part of it (unless pressed into such under emergencies).

It should be noted that the Royal Marines often manned at least one turret of big ships. For a period between the last years of WWI and until the 1930s, big ships carried makings on their turrets (plus range clocks on their masts). This would allow ships in a battle line to know exactly were the firing ship was pointing its guns at, so that ships which could not see the target, could still engage it be deducing data from the firing ship. Many navies took this coordinated fire to the extreme whereby 5 weak ships could overwhelm one super ship hidden behind smoke while using some minor vessel or aircraft to co-ordinate fire.

The Royal Marines would have known about this and added markings to their tanks probably to allow other tanks to know where the lead tank was shooting at.

The Royal Navy had dropped the markings by WWII as by then it had all been coded in radio transmissions. The idea worked ok for ships because they were equipped with all sorts of equipment to accurately determine how far they were away from the lead ship etc and they had complex fire control computers (in those days mechanical analogue machines) to punch out the fire solution.

Tanks would not have had all this so the markings may have only helped with guesstimates while they were stationary.

 

Technically, the Centaur in RM service was an armoured artillery piece rather than a tank (very different roles).

 

FWIW, army troops had 4 tanks by 1944 (except Churchill units which were 3), US and German doctrine used troops of 5.

 

Cromwells only made up the fighting strength of one armoured division (the 7th, known as the desert rats - they were not at all happy at swapping over their Sherman's for these!). Most other divisions and brigades having Sherman's (a complex history as there again several hull/motor types and different turrets and suspensions too).

Divisions which did not use the Cromwell in their fighting strength still used them as part of their Recon forces (except support versions).

The Canadians quickly handed over their Cromwells to the Czechs.

 

Comets arrived at the end if 1944 and only the 11th armoured division were so equipped.

 

Plenty to be adding to war flats over the years....

[Michael Delamar]

I dont have a larger res image of this Jim Peden photo but wondering if first they are indeed warflats and secondly and probably unlikely does anyone know what the load could be? It was taken at Halewood north junction Liverpool in 1962 on the CLC north Liverpool line, a line I am modelling so this is why I would like to know.

 

[Bon Accord]

I dont have a larger res image of this Jim Peden photo but wondering if first they are indeed warflats and secondly and probably unlikely does anyone know what the load could be? It was taken at Halewood north junction Liverpool in 1962 on the CLC north Liverpool line, a line I am modelling so this is why I would like to know.

 

halewood_north_junct_jw_1962.jpg

 

The first few wagon loads could quite possibly be 3/4 tonne trailers as there seems to be a number of them on each wagon.

[Wheatley]

I concur with Jim (I was looking for pics when he posted !) Five or six per wagon, loaded with the tow hitch lashed down and the back end of the trailer up in the air, with the hitch of the next one lashed down underneath it. Airfix do the Sankey version in the ex-JB Models LWB Land-rover kit. It's rather nice, which is more than can be said for the Land-rover.

 

http://www.ehattons.com/36800/Airfix_A02324_Long_Wheelbase_Landrover_Hard_Top_GS_Trailer_with_British_Army_marking_transfer/StockDetail.aspx

 

http://tk4666.moonfruit.com/communities/9/004/006/892/339/images/4529891458.jpg

[Leadmill]

Do we have any idea when these will hit the shelves?

[Steve Rich]

A very good question

 

I placed an order with Hattons in July 2013 for 4 warflats

 

I would like to see the final product as I would be keen for more depending on the finish

[bigherb]

A very good question

 

I placed an order with Hattons in July 2013 for 4 warflats

 

I would like to see the final product as I would be keen for more depending on the finish

Same as me the bronze green version, they are not quoted as April/May like the grain wagon announced at the same time so it could be late 2015 or 2016 even 2017.

[Leadmill]

No sign on the horizon

[rembrow]

Have bumped this topic as Oxford Diecast have announced an 'oo' gauge Churchill Mk III tank in their Diecast Military range, with a target date for delivery of first quarter 2017. If normal Oxford production methods are used, it will have a detailed injection plastic upper section with diecast chassis. The Mk III is circa 1943 and the first to have the 6 pounder turret gun and no hull mounted main armament. It is very similar to the more numerous Mk IV, the main difference being turret construction, which leaves the door open for Oxford to produce later marks with different style turrets. An ideal tank for the Warflat.

[petethemole]

Churchills had to have the air intake housings on the sides removed in order to keep within the UK loading gauge, so a RTP model would require surgery. The Airfix kit has separate housings but if left off, you'd need to model the air intake aperture correctly.

[rembrow]

It's likely that the whole of the side and over track covers will be plastic mouldings due to the amount of detail that needs to be included. As the air intake covers are rectangular boxes attached to the sides, they will probably have to be seperate mouldings in the Oxford model. Will have to wait and see, the latest catalogue only shows a drawing at the moment. With Oxford also releasing The Diamond T tank prime mover and trailer in European camouflage in the next quarter, a railhead scenario involving a platoon of tanks is going to be much easier to put together.

[Martin_R]

Bachmann gave info last year saying they were scanning 2 Cromwell tanks from the Bovington tank museum, and that they would do 2 different Cromwell models.

 

The tanks in the photos on the war flats are Cromwells so that fits in well.

 

The Cromwell tank design has a complex history, several different hull designs, turret variants and guns. The complex history can be found on the web, suffice to say, mixing the hulls, guns etc can produce lots of variants.

 

The tank museum - as far as I can tell - has only one Cromwell tank. This is a MkIV with a D type hull (easy escape hatch for the co driver machine gunner but not for the driver!).

This particular combination has been modeled in 1/72nd by just about everyone (Revell, Hobbymaster, Ixomodels, Armourfast) and also in 1/76 by Airfix. Bachmann look as though they will add another Mk IV D to a pretty large family!

 

So what could the second variant be?

 

Assuming there is no second Cromwell at Bovington, the postwar warflat will probably carry a Comet which is a upgraded Cromwell. An example exists at Bovington.

The Comet tank was an attempt to fit a more powerful gun into a Cromwell. It was a compromise design in many respects.

It used a Cromwell F type hull (now both Driver and machine gunner could escape easily!). It used a modified 17 pounder anti tank gun. I say modified because while the 17 pounder was a powerful anti tank gun, capable of stopping Tiger and panther tanks in their tracks! it was too cumbersome to fit inside a British tank ( which were designed quite narrow in order to be transported by rail and therefore fit a very tight British loading gauge).

US Sherman's were converted to carry this gun, but to fit one in a Cromwell required design of both the turret and the gun.

The result was the Comet.

There may be another Cromwell hiding out among all these at Bovington....

[bigherb]

There may be another Cromwell hiding out among all these at Bovington....

There was one outside my campsite in Norfolk.

[exet1095]

There may be another Cromwell hiding out among all these at Bovington....

Pretty sure 00FF80 was the Spartan on which I did my CVRT crew driver course

[gwrrob]

Seen in the Bachmann cabinet today.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2016 by gwrrob

[Going2theDogs]

Hi all,

Bachmann are currently listing this warflat wagon Suitable for era's 3, 4 & 5.

I am planning to use these for my layout's time period mid 1980's to mid 1990's with the Oxford diecast military Land Rover Defenders. I am also thinking of using the Bofors gun. Both these items have been manufactured in khaki & 'desert sand 'so a realistic rake complete with a Bachmann VGA at the rear could be made.

However, it would be nice to have a ready made Scorpion or Warrior tank for the potentially forth coming well wagon.

Maybe Bachmann will commission a manufacturer to provide this as well.....

Any ideas out there?