Newcastle Emlyn - Early goods rolling stock

[Anotheran]

Having not been doing anything at all on the model front for about six months, and coinciding with a move that has resulted in all the modelling stuff in boxes, and a garage full of those boxes and others, I have been inspired by this forum to get back to it, start a thread, and use it as one of the motivators to get things going. It's also here, of course, as a record for me of how I got to wherever I get!
 
But it's not that simple. I'm actually going to start two threads! This one is where I hope that my primary (for now) Newcastle Emlyn layout will see the light of day. This will be a 9' x 2'3" (later 12' x 2'3") plus fiddle yard layout in OO. The second, though the first layout to be started, will be an 8' x 1' test plank layout that will allow me to test out ideas in the fields of electrics, track laying, and other scenics before using them on NE.
 
So that's the plan. I'll kick this one off with a couple of topics outlining my requirements and why I've made some choices that I have made. Then get on with what I've got so far in the way of a plan. I should point out that this thread has come before I've cut any board, so it may be a while in the growing. But I'll welcome comment and suggestion as I'm going along.

 

Index to the following pages giving page and post number:

Requirements

   - Requirements - Detail: 1/2 - complete

Planning

   - Planning - From original map: 1/3 - complete

   - Planning - Improvements: 1/4-6, 1/21, 2/26

   - Planning - Engine shed extension: 1/9

   - Planning - Compression details: 1/13 - complete

   - Planning - Mimic diagram: 6/133, 6/139

   - Planning - Adding details: 6/134

History

   - History - Timeline: 3/58

   - History - Newcastle Emlyn 1896/97: 16/387

   - History - Timetables: 3/59

   - History - Timetable charts: 6/135, 6/146, 8/187-192

   - History - Could have been (broadgauge): 6/136-7, 7/171

   - History - Coracle: 7/172

   - History - Beer: 8/197-9/202

Prototype inspiration

   - Prototype inspiration - Bodmin visit: 2/42 - complete

   - Prototype inspiration - Videos - B&R 94 - Steam North of Swansea: 1/7

Rolling Stock

   - Rolling stock (Locomotives) - Locomotive roster, by year: 16/380

   - Rolling stock (Locomotives) - Cader Idris (from L&Y 2-4-2): 3/70, 4/91

   - Rolling stock (Locomotives) - Class 517: 4/82, 5/110-11

   - Rolling stock (Passenger) - Coaching stock - initial thoughts: 4/95-5/105

   - Rolling stock (Goods) - BR 22-ton tube wagon PD kit: 11/269

   - Rolling stock (Goods) - BR 16-ton mineral (riveted) PD kit: 11/270

   - Rolling stock (Goods) - GWR Mink D PD kit: 11/270

   - Rolling stock (Goods) - TPO traffic: 7/161-2

   - Rolling stock (Goods) - GWR Python A PD kit: 9/203-220, 225, 231, 11/253, 260-1 - complete

   - Rolling stock (Goods) - BR 16-ton mineral PD kit: 9/224-5, 10/228-38, 11/258-9 - complete

   - Rolling stock (Goods) - Cambrian Railways 2-plank (Cambrian kit): 16/387

   - Rolling stock (Goods) - V6 Iron MINK (Ratio kit): 16/387-99

   - Rolling stock (Goods) - 1886 TOAD: 16/387-9

Buildings

   - Buildings - Main station building: 14/327-15/359 - design

   - Buildings - Engine shed - Design in Silhouette Studio: 15/360-372

   - Buildings - Engine shed - Cutting: 15/372-16/378, 16/383

Scenic work

   - Scenics - trees - Woodland Scenic start: 2/35

   - Scenics - multi-era - Replacable people: 8/185-6

   - Signals - Signal diagram details: 5/121-6/130

People

   - People - Dylan Thomas' grandfather: 6/142-4

   - People - A C Stadden figures: 6/145, 7/164-170

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Anotheran

[Anotheran]

So what were/are my requirements?

 

Having initially looked at a roundy roundy I realised that I wanted something that could be more realistic but in a smaller space than was required for that (though I'm still going to have to build a simple oval for running in and chip testing etc.) I came up with a number of requirements before I started browsing this site and visiting shows for inspiration. The requirements were:

 

End-to-end in no more than 12' (either branch terminus or through)

Real life location where some compression won't wreck the plan

Breakable into sections to move around in the (small) car

Passenger and goods traffic

A reasonably wide variety of freight

Scope for some interesting shunting moves

Some interesting buildings, some water and some trees!

Scope for a few signals to be modelled working

Edited October 27, 2015 by Anotheran

[Anotheran]

The move to Newcastle Emlyn...

 

So my original desire, and still long term goal, was to model Builth Road with the GWR crossing the LMS lines, high and low level stations and connecting loop with all it's engineering buildings. But that would never have flown in the sort of spaces I had available. Hence the new restriction to 12' (and here I'll beg your indulgence as I'll move back and forth between measuring units. I'm  a metric man, but it's hard to stick to when we're modelling in a scale that’s referred in the mixed way of 4 mm to the foot!)

 

So I hunted around for a suitable location and somehow came across Newcastle Emlyn. Fairly static track plan over a long period. Coal and cattle requirements as well as a local dairy. Four long sidings together with a separate siding with a loop to the shed and livestock ramps. It even had a turntable and small shed with an allocated loco! Stood next to the Teifi river with a mill complete with race there was a lot of scope for modelling and also plenty of shunting.

 

I drew it out using AnyRail on over a 1906 OS map and liked what I saw…

 

 

My initial plan was to have two 4' x 2' scenic boards and a 4' FY. The turntable and shed would be off scene (served by a cassette system). 2' of width meant that I would need to drop two of the four long sidings. But I thought that was a valid compromise. From the furthest points out (that lead to the goods shed and cattle pens) to the buffers is almost exactly 1000' so I'd also need to compress the length to 60%. But with the length of sidings and platform I was happy with that (as long as the passengers would be ok with the pens being alongside the platform!)

 

 

I actually realised that I could reduce the footprint further, to 18" wide by rotating the plan somewhat and losing the road. But this was a compromise too far. It would mean losing the river as well as the road, and I wanted to be modelling, not just building a track layout. So that was quickly abandoned.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
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[Anotheran]

I'll state now that while I appreciate the look of hand built track and turnouts (and I even have an unbuilt turnout kit in the cupboard that was bought in a moment of madness!) I'll be building this layout using Peco code 75. My main reason for this is that I plan to build all of the control electronics from MERG kits and that will take a lot of time that could otherwise be used to build track. Having seen the output of Jason, Jeff and many others with hand built track I do intend to give it a go, but probably on a small diarama to start with. For this layout though, it will be Peco 75 (though I'll probably take many of the hints and tips from this site on improving its looks as I go along!)

 

And before anyone tries to change my mind on this one point, I've bought the stuff and it's going to get used.

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
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[Anotheran]

Having realised that I shouldn't make too many compromises I again considered my requirements. I wanted the river back. I also wasn't completely happy with removing two of the sidings. So instead of trying to reduce further I looked at expanding. The line would never have seen particularly long trains, so a cassette based FY of just 3' would be enough. By extending the scenic area to 9' and making it just 3" wider I realised that I could get all of the sidings in, have a full length of river along one edge and make the platform and cattle pens their correct lengths (though still overlapped, so the passengers will still have to put up with the smell!)

 

 

This also meant that my overall compression on length would be to 67% and on width almost no compression at all. Suddenly I was a lot happier. So I've settled on three scenic boards, each 3' x 2'3" plus a single 3' long FY board, which will be cassette based with a mixture of 3' cassettes for the trains and 1' cassettes for the traffic that has gone off scene to the turntable and shed.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
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[Anotheran]

Since that point, which was reached in mid March I've further refined the plans and added in the correct signalling together with getting the landscape closer to the real location. I have no pretensions of being a rivet counter, but have a feeling that the closer my plan to the originals the easier it is going to be to make it look right. And if it looks right to me, then I'm happy! So at the moment I have a 9' scenic section plan that looks like this:

 

 

While the mill is off-scene bottom right, the master's house and the start of the race are on scene (but more of that later!). The signals are all correctly placed and I've marked the lights on platform and approaches to cattle dock and good shed. Please forgive the use of some stock items from AnyRail, but I have created the station building, cattle dock and goods mill owners house properly!

 

The track plan (and indeed the buildings) were pretty much the same from the time the station opened in 1895 to 1966 then the road to the turntable/shed at top right and the stub siding from the run around bottom left were removed. The only change in the meantime was in the 1940s when the third siding from the top was truncated to about half its length and a storage building built in it's place. I may look to engineer a way of making that capable of being changed on the model, but for now I'm happy to accept that single compromise and say that I have 80 years of time to play with!

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
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[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Aft'noon A,

 

If you're looking for prototypical information re Newcastle Emlyn then B&R videos Vol 94 Steam North of Swansea has some excellent colour footage of some of the trains serving the area along with scenes around the station area/trackside views on the approach.

 

Rgds

 

Dave

[Anotheran]

Thanks for that Dave. I shall definitely look that up as while I have maps and pictures around the station, and photos close up there's very little that I've found so far beyond the end of the platform! For instance I only have a couple of very long distance views of the goods shed and signal box, and nothing of the turntable (though I suspect that was gone by the time of the video that you mention).

 

Regards, Neil

[Anotheran]

I should probably come clean up front and say that I've actually also gone as far as planning an additional 3' board to take in the turntable, shed, mill, race and a nice little row of cottages and gardens! I decided that while this wouldn't be within the initial build I needed to plan in advance for them so that I can add the board in the future without having to make drastic changes to what I am initially building! So, for the only time in quite a while, here's the full 12' scenic section...

 

 

As I said... for full disclosure, but it won't come out again for quite some time as I've got a lot to do with just the first 9'!

 

Neil

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
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[Jock67B]

A very impressive start Neil, you certainly appear to have covered all eventualities. I like the thorough way in which you have developed the idea and look forward very much to following your thread with interest - my own effort is on hold until later in the year due to my illness but it will be a great help to watch 'how to do it' with you before I begin!

Best of luck and kind regards,

Jock.

[Anotheran]

Thanks Jock. I'm not sure that this will be the best thread for 'how to do it'. There are a lot of people on this site with a lot more experience than me... and I'll be following them. But I'll do the best I can and record it here so others can comment and maybe not repeat the mistakes I'm sure to make!

Wishing you as quick a recovery as possible so that you can then get back to it as well.

Neil

[Physicsman]

Good to see you've got your thread up-and-running, Neil.

 

Looks like a nicely thought out layout - and always a good idea to stick close to the prototype - even if compression is required.

 

Jeff

[Anotheran]

Thanks for that Jeff. It's been through a lot of iterations, so I have thought quite a bit about it. But the big advantage of taking the plan from the prototype is that other people spent a lot of time thinking it through properly a long time before I did! If after their thought it wasn't right then the operators would just need to have to work around the problems... as will I 

 

As for the compression I've managed to keep it pretty much the same width while the length is only compromised a bit. One of the advantages of a location where I'm not going to get Jubilees pulling eleven carriages!

 

 

The above plan shows where I've cut out track length. Each red line crosses the track where there is 400 mm removed, a scale 100'. That gives an overall reduction of 1200 mm or a scale 300' for the full length. It leaves me with 2635 mm or about 660' of track length. However, I've left the platform, the loco release and the track to the east of the goods shed dimensionally correct to prototype.

 

The position of the reductions has pushed the cattle dock right into the bay platform and reduced the space around the goods shed but I'm still happy with the siding lengths and shunting options that I have left. If I knew I could regularly assemble the full 12' plus FY then I may have done the whole lot to prototypical dimensions, but as I'm not sure I'll have that opportunity often, and I like the idea of modelling the mill, TT and shed, I thought I'd use the possible extra 3' as optionally described above.

 

Regards,

Neil

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
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[DLT]

Fascinating to follow your design process Neil, and it looks to be a cracking layout.  However I would go back to the original plan for the sidings opposite the platform and go back to two only.  

Its looking really cramped on the plan, and two sidings would work far better than the four from a visual point of view, even though it may be prototypically wrong.

 

You've got plenty of shunting/operational scope as it is, beware or trying to cram everything in, less is more in a case like this.  What you don't have with four sidings is the ability to spread them out and get the yard space in between.

Keep us informed, its looks a great project.

 

All the best,

Dave.

[aberdare]

Hi Neil

 

Good to see that you have made a start on a thread and what you have done so far has been given careful consideration which is obvious from your plans.

 

I'm all in agreement to follow the prototypical route where possible - I just can't do freelance - and try to get the model to look as good as it can when compared to photographs, I have managed to get Hemyock near as damn it to scale size and only shortened the line to the butter factory. I will have to make similar compression to you for the junction though.

 

Reading DLTs post is it possible to get a few extra inches at the station end by having a slight taper on the board so it has a little extra width that end or are you definitely at maximum allowable space.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing it progress over the coming months (years?) so I can compare it to the photos in my branch line books, I can then see what I missed by not choosing it.

 

All the best

 

Jim

[ChrisN]

Neil,

Looking good.  I like the way you have shown your thought processes.  Keep showing what you do step by step because although there may be people who have done a lot more than you there are those who have not and both sets could learn something new from the way you do it.

 

If your width is prototypical then your layout will be no more cramped than real life.

 

You will find now you have a thread that there is a time competition between modelling and updating your thread, and do ot let your thread dictate what you model and when.

[Anotheran]

Fascinating to follow your design process Neil, and it looks to be a cracking layout.  However I would go back to the original plan for the sidings opposite the platform and go back to two only.

 

Its looking really cramped on the plan, and two sidings would work far better than the four from a visual point of view, even though it may be prototypically wrong. What you don't have with four sidings is the ability to spread them out and get the yard space in between.

 

Thanks for the comments and input Dave. I agree that it looks a little cramped, though not much more than the prototype. However, there is some compression that way as well (though lots less than in the length). So I'll take some time to think about the way I can go to open up the space to the level of the prototype (only another three inches needed!) But if I can't make it work then I will have to look at just two sidings again.

 

Hi Neil

 

Good to see that you have made a start on a thread and what you have done so far has been given careful consideration which is obvious from your plans.

 

I'm all in agreement to follow the prototypical route where possible - I just can't do freelance - and try to get the model to look as good as it can when compared to photographs, I have managed to get Hemyock near as damn it to scale size and only shortened the line to the butter factory. I will have to make similar compression to you for the junction though.

 

Reading DLTs post is it possible to get a few extra inches at the station end by having a slight taper on the board so it has a little extra width that end or are you definitely at maximum allowable space.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing it progress over the coming months (years?) so I can compare it to the photos in my branch line books, I can then see what I missed by not choosing it.

 

All the best

 

Jim

 

Thanks Jim. Have to say I'm already enjoying the thread. I am also looking forward to comparing some photos, which is one big reason why I want to keep the four sidings in. I only really have a definite limit in length, so I could open up the width, either as you suggest by tapering it, or even along the full length. I'm going to play with both ideas tomorrow to see what I can come up with. An extra 3" may be enough (and would give me more of the curve of the river at the western end, so more prototypical there as well.) Though I want to avoid going too wide. Reading the above I did briefly consider making my boards 3' square, but then they're getting pretty heavy to be shifting around. I may still consider it, but I'll see what I can do with 2' 6" first.

 

Neil

Edited June 19, 2014 by Anotheran

[Anotheran]

Looking good.  I like the way you have shown your thought processes.  Keep showing what you do step by step because although there may be people who have done a lot more than you there are those who have not and both sets could learn something new from the way you do it.

Thanks for the comments Chris. I fully intend to keep showing my thoughts step by step because I've gleaned so much from others doing the same. While most have a lot more experience in the field than me I hope that, firstly, there may be something that others will find of use and, secondly, that others may comment on my thoughts and thus improve my output.

 

If your width is prototypical then your layout will be no more cramped than real life.

My width is close to prototypical (and I'm talking purely about the model here!) but is a little narrower where the river starts to curve north at the western end of the layout, so DLT is quite correct in pointing out that it is slightly cramped. I think that I'll try adding a little more width and a little more anti-clockwise rotation to get closer to the prototype curve of the river.

 

You will find now you have a thread that there is a time competition between modelling and updating your thread, and do ot let your thread dictate what you model and when.

Thanks for the advice. On day one I am already seeing the time impact!    I shall listen to comments on the thread and allow it to influence my plans, but not completely dictate... so now I only need to get the time balance right!

 

Regards, Neil

Edited May 25, 2014 by Anotheran

[Steve O.]

Hi Neil,

Agree with all the other posts; great plan and looking forward to more.

Cheers, Steve O.

[Anotheran]

Having measured again from the map the space from the centre point of double platform road to the first set of sidings should be 120 mm on my model and it's actually 125 mm. The gap between the centres of the two pairs of sidings should be 170 mm and it's 160 mm. So it's almost exact to the prototype. As a result I'm not inclined to widen the board any more (though I may move the first set of sidings slightly closer to the platform to get it even closer to prototype which broadens the gap between the two sets.)

 

However, I am missing about 25 mm of space between the northernmost sidings and the fence, which significantly contributes to DLT's correct perception of lack of space. So I now need to work out how to do that. I'll experiment with a tiny bit more rotation and probably have to lose the river at the westernmost end.

 

Neil

[Anotheran]

I've played around with the yard in light of DLT's observations and opened it up to the prototype dimensions by marginally moving the two pairs of sidings but also making the river front and fence match the prototype from the OS map more closely. I'm still around 10 mm (a scale 2' 6") narrow to the north of the sidings, but I'll get some of that back overall by narrowing the gap of the platform crossover by modifying the Peco points somewhat as per LNER4479 on Grantham. That will give me another 5 mm. So overall I'm now happy with this.
 

 
It may not look very different, but there's a full 30 mm extra in there between the fence and the tracks which gets me to within a couple of feet of the prototype from the station building to the river bank fence (which is close enough for me to live with!) Thanks DLT for brining it to my attention. Whilst I've not gone completely along with you and gone back to two sidings you've made me look at it in such a way that I've significantly opened up the space and got more prototypical on the river bank and yard.

 

Neil

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
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[Anotheran]

When designing the layout I did do a full scale print of it so that I could try it out for size. While they're somewhat out of date (they were taken before I discovered the crossover to the west of the goods shed on the signalling diagram - which isn't there on the map!) I thought they may amuse. Though please forgive the terribly out of area 4F and associated coaches that were brought in to check the length of the loco release, and the short Hornby platform that is intended to show where the station is!

 

Firstly, a full length view of the complete layout looking west from the fiddle yard. The road centre bottom is the line to Pencader Junction and the rest of the world! The road to the bottom right is to the turntable and engine shed.

 

 

Secondly, an aerial shot, again looking west, of the station and yard area. To the left are the (as yet incorrect, missing the crossover) goods shed and cattle dock sidings with an LMS cattle wagon (to be replaced by a few GWR ones!) and GWR 4819 which is intended to be remodelled to 4872 which was seen on the line from 1936 until nationalisation.

 

 

Finally, a couple of shots of the station and sidings areas looking east. As stated previously, I intend to narrow the gap between the platform and runaround roads, but I think these shots give a reasonable idea of the space, even before the amendments to the plan that I've just made.

 

 

 

I know the rolling stock gives some idea of scale, but a further indicator is that the floor tiles are 600 mm square.

 

I'll certainly be printing out more of the full size versions. It was incredibly useful to actually see it all on the floor in full size rather than just on the PC screen or in my head. It actually felt as if I'd started modelling!

 

Regards, Neil

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Images added back in after server change

[Physicsman]

Looks very effective, Neil. And ANY excuse to have a lovely 4F on a layout is to be taken!

 

You mentioned you'd recently moved into a new-build. Where are you planning to house the layout?

 

Jeff

[Anotheran]

On 26/05/2014 at 15:52, Physicsman said:

You mentioned you'd recently moved into a new-build. Where are you planning to house the layout?

 

Jeff,

 

That's not a completely simple question to answer.

 

As I work from home much of the time I need a properly kitted office so one of the double bedrooms has a double run of desks across the middle. One side, facing the window, is my office, the other with my back to the window is my modelling space. Each space is about 9'6" x 8' so the modelling space is big enough to have an 8' x 2' layout up and still give me plenty of space to model, or will also allow me to work on two of the 3' x 2'3" boards of NE at the same time. Or even all three scenic boards at a push, though that would prevent the cupboards opening!

 

My workshop is in the garage, which is also big enough to have the full 12' scenic plus fiddle yard length (indeed, would also take the full 15' version!). We also have space in both the lounge and family room for the complete layout to be set up. I expect that during the summer it will be up full time in the garage, and during the winter put up in either lounge or family room when we have suitable visitors. Alternatively, I may insulate the garage fully and use it there in the winter as well.

 

Either way, the above is one of the reasons that I need the layout to be transportable. Another is that I want to be able to take it to my sister's for use by nephew and niece on occasion (they are two of the "suitable visitors".)

 

Totally agree re the 4F. My favourite loco, which will have to get lost in West Wales occasionally when the timetables go awry ;-)

 

Neil

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran

[Jaz]

I like the print out idea, having seen itt plenty of times before, does not mean it is not still an excellent idea. So easy to make mistakes when designing, and this will ensure you see exactly what fits. Someone I know  thinks layouts are T A R D I S s and as such you can fit everything including the kitchen sink. This way you can really get a feel for the size and plan accordingly.

Shall look forward to seeing some movement.....