Mid 60s 'First Class' designation cant rail band/stripe

[Ceptic]

Hi All.

 

This question/thought has bounced around my brain many times in the past, but my recent post onto jimmysbow's thread about air horns on the '60s Maunsell pull-push BCKs has brought it to the forefront again.

 

The question is this. What would you folks consider to be the colour of the below cant-rail, B.R. First Class carriage/compartment designation stripe / band when it first appeared ?. Was it Cream ? or Yellow ? to your eyes.

I remember it appearing on B.R.(S) Green coaches in the mid '60s, and it was, to me, distinctly Cream or Straw coloured, closely matching the coach lettering/set numbers and a Green liveried loco's numbers.

 

Now, Bachmann call it Yellow on their Green Bulleid and B.R. Mk.1&2 coaches, and it is of that colour. Hornby seem to be more accurate with their colour, but as time goes on, things can only get more confused.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the truely Yellow coloured band didn't come in until stock started being painted in B.Rail Blue. What say you ? my friends.

 

I should have, maybe, posted this on the 'Questions & Help' section, but I'll wait and see how it does on here.

 

Regards, Ceptic.

[great central]

Being told to rest after coming out of hospital earlier in the week I stuck a DVD on and was quite surprised to see a maroon Mk1 suburban coach complete with yellow stripe.

Most of the stuff was shot around 1962-65, it did tend to jump around a bit but without digging it out again, I think the train was hauled by an L1 tank, there certainly were a lot of L1's in the film. The last L1 was witdrawn in 1962.

The only colour photos I recall seeing show a distinct yellow line, although I must admit not many of these are SR, not really my sphere of interest.

Not sure if that helps or not, but I was surprised to see the yellow so early on.

[The Stationmaster]

Yellow (and probably 'warning yellow' because that was what BR would have had stocks of).

[Poor Old Bruce]

Yellow (and probably 'warning yellow' because that was what BR would have had stocks of).

 

Definitely

[Ceptic]

Yellow (and probably 'warning yellow' because that was what BR would have had stocks of).

 

Hi All

Hmm... 'Warning Yellow' ? or 'Signal Yellow' ?. I've got certain doubts about this.

I know the small warning panels started to appear on the odd diesel, down South, as early as 1962 and you can't always go by colour reproduction, but.... in the book 'Diesels in Wessex' there's a 9/7/67 shot on p.12, of a Green liveried SYP Cl.33 hauling, amongst others, a Bulleid CK and a BR Mk.1 CK, both in BR(S) Green and with 1st.cl. stripes. These stripes are definitely much paler than the loco's warning panel, more akin to the Cream coloured "go faster" stripes & whiskers applied to the first generation, dark Green liveried DMUs, photos of which are also in the book, along with 3 pics of BR(S) Green DEMUs, similarly treated to a 1st. cl. stripe above the appropriate compartments.

Possibly ?, Yellow was the colour applied to other regions' Maroon stock, but I, personally, have no evidence of this, and, who knows?, some one may come up with an example.

 

Regards and Thanks.

[The Stationmaster]

I've just gone through 3 books and there are several illustrations (all except one on what was almost certainly WR stock) showing it as 'strong' yellow but the tone varies a bit (probably due to dirt/different cleaning techniques). There is one example which looks very pale on a maroon coach but it is a distant view at an awkward angle so might not be illustrative.

 

It definitely always struck me from the lineside as a very 'strong' yellow - not a pale colour although I do recall that something different was used on the Southern's 1300 series demus and I've a vague memory of something a bit different on some other green (but not yellow) Southern stock.

[keefer]

as to a starting date , the parkin mk1 supplement details the minutes of the Carriage Standards Committee.

 

minute no. 3014, dated 1/8/62, references a couple of Traffic Conference minutes and states "When coaches pass through shops a yellow band is to be painted on all 1st class coaches and 1st class sections of composite coaches"

minute no. 3056, dated 26/9/62, details an official drawing being issued, showing "first class markings".

 

of course, when an official instruction was issued and when it was implemented varies considerably, especially in matters of livery.

 

the parkin mk1 main volume shows colour images of choc/cream stock w/yellow stripe: adjacent vehicles have yellow and almost washed out to white stripes!

i've seen images of maroon stock with a vivid yellow stripe and others with a very pale/watery yellow.

 

presumably, the type of paint/finishing used would affect the weathering/fading of the 1st. class stripe? if newly applied, very strong YELLOW!, but after a time in traffic, paler yellow?

 

would cleaning regimes possibly have an effect? knowing how some coaches were cleaned more/less than others, either by hand or through a machine.

[BernardTPM]

These markings were meant to be in line with the UIC standards, of which British Railways was a member, so yellow for First Class and Red for Catering cars. The latter appeared later, though.

[Chris116]

Surely the GER started the colour bands in their Jazz service with Yellow for 1st, Blue for 2nd, Red for Catering and nothing for 3rd!

 

Chris

[SRman]

From observation: yellow when new, fading to cream.

[BernardTPM]

Surely the GER started the colour bands in their Jazz service

 

True, they used that system a long time before, but it wasn't directly inherited by BR, presumably discontinued by the LNER. It might be where the UIC got the colour ideas from, though.

[Ceptic]

Thanks again, for all your replies.

 

Yup, I also, read the Keith Parkins' pages relating to this, way back, when the first hard-back edition appeared. Unfortunately, I haven't got the supplement, next time I see it, I'll invest.

The reference to the colour 'Yellow' jarred then, and has done since, as you can gather from my questioning it.

And, as you can see, I'm not convinced.

The Cl, 33 pic. in 'Diesels in Wessex', referred to in my previous post, shows the loco and it's train in a clean (if not pristine) condition. Other photos I have found are a close-up shot of an unidentified Maunsell pull/push BCK, so painted. Taken at Corfe Castle station, on May 18th. 1964, it shows part of the corridor side of a clean ('64, then, freshly re-painted) coach, with the stripe colour matching closely the colour of the corridor's internal compartment wall panelling, lighter in shade than that of the coach's exterior's numerals and lettering. Ref., page 41, 'Dorset Steam' by Michael Welch, Publ'r Capital Transport.

The other photo's of a Std.Mk.1 BCK. in lined Maroon, taken at Highbridge (S&DJR) on Jan.1st.1966. Here the stripe is, again, lighter than the coach lettering, and, in this instance, the lining. Ref. page 86, 'Decline of Southern Steam', again, by Michael Welch and Capital Transport.

I remember having read somewhere that the S.Reg. were among, if not, the first of BR's regions to introduce this b( r )anding to cater for the incoming continental traveller, the scheme having been in operation for some time 'over there'.

There's always the possibility that the S.Reg. had more bucket loads of Cream left over from the days of Crimson/Carmine and Cream (They were very reluctant to re-paint their stock in this livery), than they had bucket loads of 'Warning Yellow'. Or maybe, it was station canopy Cream ?.

 

Regards.

[Ceptic]

G'd afternoon All.

 

I'd forgotten that I had these pics.

They show the subtle differences between 'Cantrail Cream'? and 'Warning Yellow' applied to BR(S) Green on the NRM's re-vitalised 2-BIL.

 

 

Does anyone have an official colour code for the two, I wonder ?

 

Regards.

[coachmann]

Glad to see those pictures. They comfirm my memory of no noticeable difference between the lining on maroon coaches and the cantrail stripe. On ex LMS Stanier coaches, the lining above the windows was raised to correspond with that on Mk.I coaches in later days, probably because of the introduction of cantrail stripe.

[the penguin of doom]

Glad to see those pictures. They comfirm my memory of no noticeable difference between the lining on maroon coaches and the cantrail stripe. On ex LMS Stanier coaches, the lining above the windows was raised to correspond with that on Mk.I coaches in later days, probably because of the introduction of cantrail stripe.

 

Did the Staniers gain the yellow stripe? Also, did Maroon catering vehicles receive the red stripe? I would imagine it would be hardly noticeable, but have never seen a picture to check it?

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Pennine MC]

Did the Staniers gain the yellow stripe? Also, did Maroon catering vehicles receive the red stripe? I would imagine it would be hardly noticeable, but have never seen a picture to check it?

 

 

Yes, and yes, although possibly not universally - some might have been withdrawn or repainted blue/grey (respectively) before having it applied

[coachmann]

'LMS Coaching Stock II' by Jenkinson & Essery has a picture of a Stanier corridor composite M4878M on page 163, no doubt taken by the official photographer to show the yellow band above first class. High position lining above windows.

 

LG

[Ceptic]

Hello coachmann, Pennine MC. and forum Members

Many thanks for your recent replies and input.

Now....I'm still looking,.. I'm sure I've got a pic. somewhere, of a Stanier Restaurant Car in BR(M) Maroon with a Red cant-rail stripe, ! ?.

In the meantime, I've found several more photos of (a) BR Mk.1 BCK, Collett & Hawkworth CKs, on the S&DJR in the early/mid '60s, all in BR Maroon with the Cream/Straw/Old Gold* 1st. Cl. band.

 

*The Keith Parkin book (The loose cover of which, has a very accurate colouring of BR Maroon + Lining) refers to the coach lining colour as 'Gold', in reference to the Carmine / Cream livery, and, indeed, I have seen original, and preserved coaches so lettered and lined, i.e. in 'metallic 'Gold'.

 

As a postscript, I have previously bought several transfer/decal sheets from 'Modelmaster Decals' (Apologies Coachmann). In their lists on BR Coach liveries, they include options between 'Cream' or 'Yellow' coach lettering & numberals. Another decal sheet offers a 'Yellow' 1st. Class indication band, with no choice of another colour.

 

As you can gather from my original and subsequent posts, I'm what you may class as a BR(S) rivet counter. Apart from this....I'm only trying to set the records straight, and avoid any later confusion.

 

Regards

[coachmann]

The term 'gold' has oft been used over the years. The Midland Railway always used the term even when they adopted yellow during and after World War One. The same applied to BR as the colour of BR coaching stock insignia was not gold. It was an attempt to look gold using solid colour, a sort of distressed creamy yellow like adding a touch of black to it. Each character also had a black outline.

 

Not sure why cream and also yellow coach insignia is offered by some traders, unless in the intervening years an idea has crept in that there were two different colours of coach insignia between 1949 and 1965 as on locomotive cabside numerals.

 

LG

[10800]

Not sure why cream and also yellow coach insignia is offered by some traders, unless in the intervening years an idea has crept in that there were two different colours of coach insignia between 1949 and 1965 as on locomotive cabside numerals.

 

 

I thought yellow numbering was used on BR(S) green coaches rather than cream (despite the 'l' in cream on the door of the preserved 2BIL in the photo above). But I'm wondering if that's just an optical illusion.

[Ceptic]

I thought yellow numbering was used on BR(S) green coaches rather than cream (despite the 'l' in cream on the door of the preserved 2BIL in the photo above). But I'm wondering if that's just an optical illusion.

 

Nope, definately not an optical illusion. If you zoom in on the cab door lettering, in the first pic, you can see that this is a different, paler, colour to that of the Yellow applied to the end.

Regarding the colouring of lettering in transfer/decal form, Fox Transfers offer three shades, Straw, Old Gold and Metallic Gold. The only classification stripes available, are those from HMRS, in Red or Yellow only.

 

Regatds.

[Gwiwer]

From memory my opinion would go with the SR green stock carrying a slightly creamier shade of yellow (but not so pale as to be considered as cream) on the cantrail and a lemon yellow on the front ends. Of course the colour observed varied according to how fresh it was. Front end yellow tended to darken account continual contact with insects while the first class stripe faded if anything. In later years the shade of yellow became the darker "warning" yellow where ever it was used and which is sometimes referred to as custard when compared with the earlier lemon and creamier shades. 2Bil 2090 as preserved has warning yellow on the ends because that was the requirement when it last ran in service (Brighton - Lewes shuttles for an open day)

 

If anyone has ex-works pictures of the first series 4Cig / Big units as outshopped in b/g set against the later deliveries the difference should show up. It has also been represented correctly in model form. Early Bachmann class 42 locos such as my D804 have the lemon ends matched correctly with early style number decals, later issues with standard number decals such as 870 and the upcoming 812 have the darker "warning" yellow. It is noticeable when I run the two locos double-headed.

 

The shade of yellow used on the cantrail was supposed to be the same universally but I do recall seeing some very much deeper yellows on maroon stock. Equally there were maroon coaches sporting the paler slightly creamy shade.

 

To progress to the red strip enquiry I personally don't recall seeing a maroon catering vehicle with a red strip but they are represented in the model world as such on some issues. SR green buffet and restaurant cars gained the red stripe on loose-coupled stock. It was universally applied to Res / Buf / Gri/ Bep / Big units; in the case of the latter two types it was there from new.

[Daddyman]

Does anyone know the correct shade of yellow for the first class stripes on maroon mk1s and of any manufacturer who produces paint of the correct colour?

[coachmann]

I cannot give a specific answer but at the time it seemed to match the lining colour on maroon coaches. The lining in the cantrail on LMS Stanier coaches was raised at about this time so as to accomodate a narrow band of 'yellow' over 1st class accomodation.

[edcayton]

When was this system of denoting first class introduced?

 

Ed