Seperate DC Bus for Seep PM1

[PaulAN]

Hi. Have looked through forum, Brian Lamberts site and lots of Google, but still a bit confused.  I have Peco 100 track, electrofrog points, with Hornby Elite DCC.  I am reasonably confident I have figured the DCC side out, touch wood,  I want to run my points and motors as a separate  DC system.  I have just ordered a Guagemaster M1 controller, Guagemaster CDU, Seep PM1 motors and Peco PL-26 Levers.  Found great pic of wiring Seep motors with DCC, but not with DC.  Could someone please explain the wiring for my levers and Seep motors.  In particular, which of the 6 terminals to use.

       Getting a bit lost with wires, A, B to switch, F to the frog,   NOW??, C (-ve) D (+ve), and E ?? is only used with DCC ??, So not used for my purpose??

         Most of what I saw was linking all the motors up to each other, then as a common return (-ve), and linking the levers up with the (+ve), then back to the CDU

I was thinking of using a common DC bus, 2 separate wires, for both,  the return (-ve) and the (+ve) and using droppers to attach motors and levers, and attaching bus to the CDU, then CDU to controller??

Is this correct ???

Thanks for any help. Paul

 

 

[Brian]

Hi

If I understand your drawing correctly using your idea you would have to place point levers separately around the layout to make use of the Bus pair?  I don't grasp the bottom part really? Is that switch, power supply or a CDU as the only thing I know of with three connections is a point switch!

Normally all the point operating levers / switches or studs etc used for solenoid point motor operation are grouped logically together. Or at times in a couple of groups etc.

So a two wire bus can't really be used!

 

Conventionally you take the Positive output terminal of the CDU to all the point operating switches central wiring tags, linking them in series (daisy chain) until the last switch is reached where the feed wire stops.

Each switch will have two outer wiring tags, these have a wire on each and they run out to the layout and eventually connect to the Seeps 'A' and 'B' tags respectively.

 

From the CDU output negative terminal a wire is run out to the layout (often referred to as a Common return) this wire has all the Seep PM1s 'C' tag connections joined to it. There is no benefit in running individual return wires back to the CDU its just a waste of wire

 

On the PM1 the three change over switch tags D, E & F are normally for electrofrog points used for the frog polarity changing. 'F' connecting to the frog.   The wires on 'D' & 'E' are often droppers from the rails above or on DCC layouts direct from the DCC bus pair of wires. What cannot be specified is which way around these two wires connect onto D & E as it depends on which way around the Seep has been fitted to the point above. But one way they will work correctly, the wrong way around they will produce a short circuit on the rail feed.

 

Note all wiring for the A, B & C should be in at least 16/0.2mm or larger wire size.  The wires on D, E & F which are just feeding the frog rail and beyond can be smaller 7/0.2mm wire if wished.

 

 

Edit to correct spelling errors!

[PaulAN]

Thanks Brian for your reply.  I have purchased your book and found it informative. 

To clarify a bit more.  Indeed the bottom part of the picture is the swith lever (I found this pic online).  All the point lever switchs will be grouped together.

         "Each switch will have two outer wiring tags, these have a wire on each and they run out to the layout and eventually connect to the Seeps 'A' and 'B' tags respectively."

I understand this, but some of the point motors will be up to 2 meters away, would this be OK?, or use slightly larger wire?

 

        "From the CDU output negative terminal a wire is run out to the layout (often referred to as a Common return) this wire has all the Seep PM1s 'C' tag connections joined to it."

Is this where I can put a Bus wire around, from the CDU, and use droppers from the 'C' to this Bus??

 

        "electrofrog points used for the frog polarity changing. 'F' connecting to the frog"

Yes I under stand this, the exposed wire coming from the bottom of the frog.

 

         "The wires on 'D' & 'E' are often droppers from the rails above or on DCC layouts direct from the DCC bus pair of wires."

I don't quite understand this.  My rails are DCC, but my point control will be DC.  Does this mean that I do not need to wire these 2 up ?? for basic DC point control??  I cant see why I would add droppers from my DCC rails to my DC switching??

 

Sorry if I seem a bit slow, but just need clarification before I start wiring these up, I have 15 of them.  I will be soldering all wiring and have done the modification to my electrofrog points.  I am just about to start on laying down my points, but want to position the motors, points and all wiring before I fix them to the track.

 

Thanks again. Paul

[kevinlms]

 

        "electrofrog points used for the frog polarity changing. 'F' connecting to the frog"

Yes I under stand this, the exposed wire coming from the bottom of the frog.

 

         "The wires on 'D' & 'E' are often droppers from the rails above or on DCC layouts direct from the DCC bus pair of wires."

I don't quite understand this.  My rails are DCC, but my point control will be DC.  Does this mean that I do not need to wire these 2 up ?? for basic DC point control??  I cant see why I would add droppers from my DCC rails to my DC switching??

 

Sorry if I seem a bit slow, but just need clarification before I start wiring these up, I have 15 of them.  I will be soldering all wiring and have done the modification to my electrofrog points.  I am just about to start on laying down my points, but want to position the motors, points and all wiring before I fix them to the track.

 

Thanks again. Paul

You don't connect D,E, or F to any DC wiring, if you have DCC. In fact, you connect those 3 terminals exactly as per your original diagram. 2 wires to the DCC bus (as Brian pointed out, you may need to work out which way around, as one way will short out & the other will work perfectly) & the wire F to the frog.

 

A, B & C terminals are for actually changing the points, D,E & F terminals, are for what happens when the point motor moves across.

[PaulAN]

Thanks Kevin for reply.  Gosh, we're almost neighbours, lol. 

So the D and E for changing the polarity?, F to power the frog. 

Just got a bit confused when is saw the DCC on this diagram, because I am using a separate DC controller for changing the points, didn't realise you hook it up to the DCC bus also.

Thanks again for you help, Paul

[kevinlms]

Thanks Kevin for reply.  Gosh, we're almost neighbours, lol. 

So the D and E for changing the polarity?, F to power the frog. 

Just got a bit confused when is saw the DCC on this diagram, because I am using a separate DC controller for changing the points, didn't realise you hook it up to the DCC bus also.

Thanks again for you help, Paul

Hi Paul

 

I've changed my location to be more accurate = Yarra Valleys.

 

I hadn't spotted your location until after I replied. I knew of Merino as a place name (not just the sheep!), but didn't really know where!

 

D & E don't change anything, just hook them up to each side of your DCC bus. Its MUCH easier to do than try to explain. 'F' gets its power from either D or E, depending on which way its set.

[Brian]

Thanks Brian for your reply.  I have purchased your book and found it informative.    Nice one - Thank you  

To clarify a bit more.  Indeed the bottom part of the picture is the swith lever (I found this pic online).  All the point lever switchs will be grouped together.

         "Each switch will have two outer wiring tags, these have a wire on each and they run out to the layout and eventually connect to the Seeps 'A' and 'B' tags respectively."

I understand this, but some of the point motors will be up to 2 meters away, would this be OK?, or use slightly larger wire?  Yes 2 Mtrs or up to around 5mtrs is normally fine with 16/0.2mm equipment wire.

 

        "From the CDU output negative terminal a wire is run out to the layout (often referred to as a Common return) this wire has all the Seep PM1s 'C' tag connections joined to it."

Is this where I can put a Bus wire around, from the CDU, and use droppers from the 'C' to this Bus??   Yes exactly. One wire feeding all the C connections Call it a bus or  a common return write its all the same.

 

        "electrofrog points used for the frog polarity changing. 'F' connecting to the frog"

Yes I under stand this, the exposed wire coming from the bottom of the frog.  Yes that is correct, this wire is normally extended with a short length of 7/0.2mm equipment wire etc and run the the point motors F terminal.

 

         "The wires on 'D' & 'E' are often droppers from the rails above or on DCC layouts direct from the DCC bus pair of wires."

I don't quite understand this.  My rails are DCC, but my point control will be DC.  Does this mean that I do not need to wire these 2 up ?? for basic DC point control??  I cant see why I would add droppers from my DCC rails to my DC switching??  The Seep Terminals D, E & F are electrically separate from the coil connections on A, B & C.  As your layout uses DCC rail power you will need to flip over the DCC going to the frog by using the Seeps built in change-over switch this then allows the position of the closed switch rail to the stock rail to match the frog rails which are being fed via the Seep D, E & F switch. The DCC rail feeds and the point operation feed form the CDU output are and must be kept totally separate.

 

Sorry if I seem a bit slow, but just need clarification before I start wiring these up, I have 15 of them.  I will be soldering all wiring and have done the modification to my electrofrog points.  I am just about to start on laying down my points, but want to position the motors, points and all wiring before I fix them to the track. Not to worry we all have to learn :-)

 

Thanks again. Paul

Hi Paul

I have replied in red text next to your questions - I was just easier. 

Does this drawing help at all?   wpc606efb3_06.png

 

Hope my replies etc help?

Brian

 

Edit to add picture link