Michael Delamar Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I thought I would start a thread on my locos that are being converted to EM, detailed, renumbered etc to run on my new layout Walton on the hill. Here is the thread for the layout. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80129-walton-on-the-hill-27e-liverpool-em-gauge/ There will be some kitbuilt locos, of which I have written threads on these already, with some more to come. A lot of the stock is Hornby and Bachmann, converted to EM gauge either using original wheels, Markits or Gibson wheels. The plan is to use Markits wheels on all those that can be. All stock apart from small shunters will have Hornby screw couplings, the shunters will have bar couplings for sprat and winkle couplings. the large locos will run onto the shed from the fiddle yard so wont need working couplings, when they run off shed to the fiddle yard they will be connected to their train by the layout operator. a few snaps of the locos and a brief description of each, we can go into greater detail later. Firstly those that are already converted. period will be around 1959-63, a lot of changes and withdrawals in that time so will try and keep locos that wouldnt be seen together away from each other when operating. Walton shed closed in December 1963 and its track plan was changed around 1958 so anywhere in that sort of period Im aiming for. Hornby B1, converted using original Hornby driving wheels with Gibsons on the tender and front bogie. renumbered as a regular visitor, I have a few photos of this at Walton. Id like another B1 in the future, a namer. Hornby Brush type 2, converted using original wheels pushed out on axles, light weathering by Gareth Rowlands, I renumbered it as a known visitor with correct 6E16 headcode Walton to Tinsley freight. These visited during the sheds later years. Hornby black 5, purchased in this weathered condition then converted to EM by Tim Easter using Gibson drivers, nice runner but it needs its front bogie looking at, either Gibson or Markits or just some spacer washers. I want to renumber this loco but havent found one I want to do yet, I dont think Black 5s were that common except on Grand national day. Austin 7, brass Alan Gibson kit with Markits wheels and high level gearbox, Aintree loco not a Walton loco, I have a shot of one of these on Walton shed in the early 50s period in front of the old coaling stage but have done this in its later 1959 era, the last to be withdrawn from nearby Aintree. Not sure how regular these would have visited but I like these, it could either visit the shed or pass on a local freight, pway train or delivering the stores van to the shed. A job for a Bank hall loco normally. this loco was transferred away from Aintree in 1959 and cut up in Wigan in 1963. N5, Judith Edge etches and SE Finecast castings, nearly finished, the chassis is and runs well, Walton had at least 4 of these in the period I am modelling, this one will be 69265, Waltons last one. Now onto locos which are still 00 and yet to be converted just posed on EM track. Bachmann 4f, I have 2 of these and will want more in the future as they were very common, Walton had quite a few allocated, have not yet decided how these will be converted as they have a non standard axle size of 2mm so that rules out Markits. Hornby stanier 4P, all I have done so far is change the crest to a later one, Fairburns were also based at Walton so will get a Bachmann one in the future, Fowler tanks less common but not unknown and I like them so will be after one of those aswel. the large tanks at Walton were there to work Aintree Central to Liverpool central and Manchester central trains. Bachmann J39, very common visitors from Gorton Manchester but none on the books at Walton, split chassis and the plan at the moment is to keep this with an outer brass chassis and Markits wheels. This is one of the next in line to be worked on. I have plenty of shots of these at Walton, one loco I have 2 shots and in each one it has a different tender. Bachmann crab, another on the bench at the moment, getting some detail parts from Brassmasters but not all the parts in the conversion kit. will be having Markits wheels, I have already soldered the bushes in the coupling rods to reduce the crankpin hole. Again common visitors and I have quite a few shots of them at Walton, but not many ever on the books I would have to check, undecided which one to renumber this to yet as this class can be a minefield of small detail variations. Bachmann ROD, another very common class which visited from Gorton. Id like some more of these including the other boiler versions. At the moment had no work apart from a change of crest, may get renumbered, but it will be weathered in filthy condition. Bachmann 9f, visitors from Rowsley and Carlisle, awful Bachmann weathering will be gone over, again, unsure what number this will be yet. Bachmann super D. weathered by Barry Oliver, a class of loco I never thought would get to Walton, but a couple of people including Bachmanns Graham Hubbard said he saw one on shed, will be an 8A Edge hill loco so thats good enough for me. Hornby patriot, this is Rhyl but im not sure Rhyl ever visited, some others did on grand national day such as 45512 Bunsen which I have a shot of on shed, so it may become that although Bunsen was spotless, this was purchased weathered from Grimy times. Bachmann austerity, purchased like this from Grimy times, all i have done is add a 247 fire iron tunnel, may be renumbered. I have a few shots of these on shed. Bachmann Ivatt 2mt, no evidence these ever got to Walton although they did run in the Liverpool area. This one may become a Heaton mersey or bank hall loco. pushing it a bit with these 2, so they may not run on the layout, they were built for another layout, but they are there and converted to EM and run well, could say they are passing the shed from Huskisson on a long way round trip to Bank hall. I do have a 1930s shot of a pug at Walton. thats enough to be going on with for now, I also have a Hornby standard 4 4-6-0 which Walton did have at least 4 allocated, its away with Tim Easter at the moment. Other locos I want which Walton either had or had regular visits from were V2's, not sure how to go about one of those yet.8fs, I have a plain green 08 which Walton only ever had one allocated, that needs wheels, I want a jubilee but Bachmann dont do any of the ones I want yet ie the long firebox version, I have 2 Jinty bodies which need chassis and Id like a Johnson 3f condensing loco and a j10 but Ive got enough to be busy with at the moment. Ive just started a Craftsman lanky A class. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I shall be watching with interest Michael. You're way ahead of me and I have a load of locos, some RTR and some kit built (including the Gibson Austin 7 and a Flatiron). For RTR. my approach is to try and rework the wheels to get them to something close to the EM spec. (I thought Phil Tattershall's piece in EMGS 194 on Markits was very interesting). I have started on a Jinty but it's back in my "to do" pile while I work on some other stuff. Regarding Bachmann's new 2.17mm dia (I think) axles, I found some steel rod (well, it's labelled music wire) of 3/32" or 2.38mm dia. It occurred to me that for axles, this may be close enough to allow bearings to be reamed or perhaps the rod itself to be carefully reduced in dia. Again, nothing beyond the thinking stage at this time. You will know that Brassmaster's are working on an Easi Chas kit for the 4F, and the G2, but there hasn't been any news of late. I did buy the Easi Chas for the 3F and a set of UltraScale wheels which all cost a small fortune - you guessed it I haven't started yet. My lack of progress is good because it will let me follow your efforts which may cause me to revise some of my ideas. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ikks Posted June 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2014 I am really looking forward to following this one! Rgds.......Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spearmint100 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 You will have another keen follower here Michael. I am four months into a similar EM gauge project but based very loosely on Retford GN depot which I have fond memories of from my youth. Since I am not a track builder I am using Markway turnouts and SMP flexible track. So far I have successfully converted a Hornby J94 (relatively easy using Gibson wheels, original crankpins and rods) and a Bachmann J11 (using Gibson wheels and crankpins and original rods but re-bushed). I have almost finished a Bachmann J39 with Gibson wheels and Comet chassis. I can certainly recommend the Comet route for your J39 conversion but it does obviously add the cost of a motor and gears. Next I will be attempting a Bachmann O4 - I will let you know how I get on in due course. Then there will be more O4s, a B1, a V2, an N5 (Judith Edge like yours) and a few more as the budget allows. Talking of budgets re-wheeling and particularly changing chassis does become quite expensive. I would be interested in your experience with the Hornby B1 where you retained the original driving wheels. Given the improvements in RTR chassis since my last involvement in 4mm that might be a route for the O4..... Regards Terry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWales Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Mike If you're looking for a Fowler 4P/Jinty 3F I may be able to help you PM Me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 One you think is going to be easy turns out to be a right pain. Crab.. This has taken a while to get to run smooth, even now im not entirely pleased as its noisy, but thats on the bench at a show will be different. firstly this has no bearings and the axles sit in the chassis channel. they are 3mm and fit ok but there is too much movement, not sure of the correct term but it causes the wheels to steer left and right like a car. Ive used Gibson bushes for the Bachmann rods, being designed for Gibson rods the hole is a lot bigger than a Markits crankpin so there is slop there, im not sure if Markits do any bushes. But the other thing with these bushes is they're a very slack fit in the Bachmann rods, they are quite a bit smaller outer diameter than the inner diameter of the Bachmann coupling rod holes, I would have preferred a tight fit and have to ream out the Bachmann rods with a broach. I have had to use lots of bushes, not only for the sideplay which it needs to be stopped on the rear axle because of the cab and the front axle because of the slidebars, but also to try and keep the steering axles under control. The problem with these is the noise they cause. Doing all that was easy enough but put it on the track and it ran like a pig, it was clunking a lot. A lot of that I later found was the drive cog, it has to be in the exact spot, a fraction either way on the axle and it hits the keeper plate, so in the end i got that fed up with it that I drilled away the bottom of the keeper plate so i could adjust the cog without taking the plate off. It then calmed down a lot but still wasnt perfect but I still decided to solder on the crankpin nuts as my temporary plastic wire ones I was suspect of. It got better but was better in reverse than forward. checked everything from crankpin nuts, I left it running upside down forward to see what would happen, in the end one of the centre rod bushes came undone, so soldered it back in and its a lot better. Its running ok now, not happy that this doesnt have proper bearings and not happy about the coupling rod bushes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_crisp Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Some excellent locos! I'm just building a craftsman 02 and I'm not sure which wheels to use... what did you use and did you keep ghe original chassis sideframes? Thanks Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Hi Will, the class 02 is a whitemetal DJH one,their starter kit and comes with wheels which are Romfords or maybe their own as the crankpin is slightly different, its got a portescap motor and runs lovely. I modified the windows as the DJH ones are too small and chunky and cut out the cab door and made it open. Ive been doing a bit more to the crab, normal crankpin nuts just touch the crossheads. I thought I may have been able to get away with it but it was catching. When taking it back apart the soldered in coupling rod bush fell out and I noticed that the normal Bachmann hole is a good fit over the crankpin base. So ive put on a very thin washer and soldered it to it, with the result that the coupling rod and crakpin washer is now a lot further in. Its running better but still not there yet and still sounds awful with its rattle, I dont think the generous movement on the coupling rod knuckle is helping, the next plan is to replace all the Axle bushes with plastic ones, both on the outside and inside of the chassis to try and prevent the axle movement when I find some suitable tube. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Im going to admit defeat on this one, tried every trick in the book I know to get it running smooth. it is is the fact it hasnt got proper bearings to keep the axles from moving. some pics below shows that I replaced the brass washers with plastic ones I found from a piece of Lego, good fit just needed a slight rubbing down so the wheels were not too tight. As a rolling chassis with no rods on it rolled along smooth and it quietened it down a lot, but with the rods on they are pushing and pulling fighting each other as the axles are still free to float.the knuckle wasnt too much of an issue even as an 0-4-0 it wouldnt run right, still had a tight spot, tried opening out the coupling rod holes. So im going to put a brass chassis on the side probably comet, with Comet coupling rods. The Markits axles on measuring with the digital micrometer are exactly the same if a tiny fraction larger diameter than the Bachmann ones but still there is slop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 A shame to hear about your problems Michael. I agree using Comet rods is the right choice assuming you have the chassis as well (There's always Gibson). I'm not sure I understood, are you going to use a Comet chassis as an overlay to the RTR chassis? Bachmann rods, at least the ones I've analyzed, do have grossly oversized holes to suit the grossly oversized pins. I think they are oversize too. I had the opposite problem using RTR wheels - I finally snipped of the pin and inserted a Markits crank pin (the hole only needs a touch of the reamer) to take Comet rods. I was inspired by an article by Tim Shackleton in MRJ 133/134 where he converts a Bachmann 2-6-4T to P4 using overlays. I've been trying to do something similar with a Jinty. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Hi yes it will be an overlay putting the spacers in the space of the chassis to match the holes in the cast chassis. Ive done this on a few locos and it does work nice, means you get the correct spaced coupling rods. Ill probably keep the Bachmann cylinders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane of Fife Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I smiled when I saw this topic as there is a village near me called Walton-on-the-hill and I immediately thought that someone had modelled a railway connection that the village has never had. I suppose that four pubs and the famous Walton Heath golf club would not require its own railway station. I found the article/thread very interesting and there may be some new techniques used in the future. Thane of Fife Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted June 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2014 If the Comet frames are exactly the same wheelbase as the Bachmann block using them as overlays will work perfectly. You can put proper bearings in the frames and use the Comet coupling rods, I've done this with several Hornby A3 and A4s (with my own etched frames) and they rune very well, i also spaced them off the 00 gauge block to put the frames where they should be for EM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 Yeah ive done that on the class 03 shunter, even if the wheelbase is out can still cut away the channel of the cast chassis which will need opening up anyway to take 1/8 axles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted June 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 22, 2014 You can stick with 3mm axles if you use Romford/Markits wheels, you can get 3mm EM axles and bushes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 You've just given me an idea. I have been using 3mm axles, but ive just tried some 1/8 ones i know they wouldnt normally fit out of 6 of the cast openings a few the 1/8 axle would fit in the channel and not necessarily the facing pair. So what i have done is open out the other to match with a tapered broach, didnt need much taking away just a few turns, but now it has 1/8 axles running in the channels with no slop. Will see how this works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I'm curious Michael E., where can one get 3mm bushes? I've looked at Eileen's, Mainly Trains, and EMGS with no result. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 I'm curious Michael E., where can one get 3mm bushes? I've looked at Eileen's, Mainly Trains, and EMGS with no result. John Im not sure John, Im not even sure anyone does them, the 3mm axles from what im aware where done by Markits to fit in Bachmann locos like this so I dont think they would have done any as there is no need for them. If you were building a brass chassis you would use 1/8. I always get my wheels and bits from Mainly trains if I can, great service and easy to order online. Crab is running and runs lovely, well as good as a Bachmann one will run. no longer crabbing 1/8 axles, plastic lego axle bushes,Bachmann coupling rods with original holes no bushes running on the base of the markits crankpin on all axles, you can see in the photo below ive just filed down the centre of the wheels a little to prevent the rods snagging on the wheel now they're close to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Agree Michael. I have some 3mm axles for Markits wheels. I also have some from EMGS axles for use with RTR wheels (just have to figure out how to get to keep their quartering). On the face of it, there doesn't seem to be a reason to produce 3mm bushes but perhaps the other Michael knows something neither of us do. I've often wondered why the industry never standardised on 3mm or 1/8" - seems daft to me. Mainly Trains is a great resource, I've used them many times myself. Good job on the Crab, it's a great feeling to get something working by your own ingenuity. I had to think about your comment on filing until I saw the shiny wheel centers. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 Made a start on this tonight, Its a Judith Edge kits 3250 gal GCR tender. Nice to build so far, the only tricky bit being shaping the top. It will be for a J10, i havent got the loco end yet, it will be a DJH one when I get hold of one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 Ive done a bit more on the tender, ive done the steps and ive also soldered the 3 main parts together, rathet than nut and bolt it as it is designed to be, then I cut out the bottom as in the future it may have a sound speaker in there. I havent done the rear coal plate as in the shots ive seen they dont have them, should also have a circular water filler. This is all ill be doing on this for now, it was just something to do over the last few days and while ive got the time, Ill do the inner chassis when I get wheels for it, the captive nuts are soldered in ready for this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 The tender isnt as low as I assumed they would be, I thought they would be something like a GWR manor tender. the 3250 in model is only a millimeter or so lower than the larger one. Put it next to a Bachmann one and you would never tell. Heres a good prototype shot, I dont know whether the coal is covering the rear coal guard or if it hasnt got one, note the circular water opening and also the plated coal rail sides on this tender has a central rib along it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted June 25, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 25, 2014 I'm curious Michael E., where can one get 3mm bushes? I've looked at Eileen's, Mainly Trains, and EMGS with no result. John Try Markits, that's where we get our axle bushes from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Try Markits, that's where we get our axle bushes from. Doh! Why didn't I think of that! Just checked the catalogue and there they are: MRAXFB3E. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 The difference between GCR tenders is quite subtle, even in 7mm scale. My trick when looking at photos is to compare the height of the boiler handrails to the height of the tender. At least when looking at photos of a given class, this usually shows up the difference. I like your way of building the tender first; this is what I shall do when I get onto my tender engines. That way I can persuade my brain that it's just another wagon! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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