Dapol "O" gauge Terrier.

[tomstaf]

There's a few mentions of Richard Webster, is he the designer of the model?

 

Cheers

 

Tom

[Dava]

Tower-models.com have the latest EP shots of the A1, it looks very good.

 

The hard choice is whether to order the better looking A1 or the more long-lived A1x. Decisions... I don't have a layout at present!

 

Dava

[Ian J.]

Very nice. While I'm not specifically interested in the A1s, this certainly looks to bode well for the A1Xs. I'm not a 7mm modeller, but I'd buy a length of track and one of these just to see the beauty of it.

 

Now, where's the 4mm/OO one?

[Nick Holliday]

With regard to the method of fixing the tank cladding panels, the original solution, at least, was neither rivets nor hexagonal nuts. The drawing is actually from a Stroudley tender, but the principles are the same, as the tender water was also heated using exhausted steam. 

The fixing consists of a threaded bolt, which is inserted into a captive nut within the tank.  The head of the bolt includes an extended square shank, which allowed the bolt to be tightened with a spanner. When the assembly was complete the square head would be broken off, the necking making this easier to do, and the head of the dome dressed to match the rest of the head.  To remove it for repairs the head would be drilled out, in exactly the same way that a rivet would be removed. 

This just demonstrates the lengths that railway engineers were prepared to go to for aesthetic reasons - just think of the additonal preparation required for flush rivets on smokeboxes - was it any wonder that in later days they eschewed such expensive items and went for coarse round-headed rivets instead.  In the case of these fixings, no doubt cheaper and less labour intensive methods were adopted later, or when the specially made bolts were not available, including threaded studs with hexagonal nuts.  A member of the Brighton Circle has examined over 200 Terrier photos and only found one that hinted at hexagonal nuts in pre-grouping days, so the standards were maintained as long as possible.  The first restored Terrier "Boxhill" was given round headed slotted bolts and the slots filled before painting, which seems a very sensible compromise, but perhaps not durable enough for a working loco.  How the Victorian engineers woudl have appreciated Allen sockets and keys!

 

As for the sample Terrier, I am afraid I think it, as it stands, cannot exactly represent any Terrier, at least prior to preservation.  The problem lies in the combination of the 10 cladding fixings and the early buffers.  The latter can be detected because the centre line of the buffer stock is below the footplate level.  Once they started working with the bogie autocars the buffers were raised by just over 2 inches, so they became the standard height of around 3' 6" from rail level, prior to that they had worked mainly with lightweight four wheeled coaches, which rapildy dropped on their springs as they filled with passengers.  These raised buffers have their centreline at the footplate level, requiring enlarged housings above the footplate.  The additional cladding fixings seem to have started being introduced around 1909, a few years later, so you could see low buffers with 6 fixings, high buffers with 6 fixings and high buffers with 10 fixings, but not low buffers and 10 fixings as per the sample.  Although various Terriers were sold out of LBSC service over the years, their new owners did not make any changes themselves to these particular details, and I haven't found evidence that the Southern bothered to bring any into line either.  Although several of these strays were rebuilt with the A1X boiler, the other changes the LBSC made to the sanding arrangements, including removing the splasher-mounted boxes above the footplate, were not carried out. All the Brighton A1X would have raised buffers and 10 cladding fixings, the mongrels could have any of the 3 combinations listed above, depending on their configuration at the time of purchase. The Edgehill example noted in another post is an un-rebuilt A1 with 10 cladding fixings, but with the raised buffers, as it was a relatively late purchase (1920) although I think it left Brighton during the Great War for military work.

[The Stationmaster]

As far as the cladding fixings and buffers go it's a reasonable match for the engine linked in Post No.11 in this thread but the smokebox pipework doesn't match.

[Adam]

As far as the cladding fixings and buffers go it's a reasonable match for the engine linked in Post No.11 in this thread but the smokebox pipework doesn't match.

 

Probably because the Dapol pre-prod is meant to be of an 'as built' machine. Note the wooden brakeblocks as opposed to iron on the Edge Hill Light Railway loco, different lamp irons different coal rails and route of the clack valve pipework. All run of the mill stuff for a Terrier, the ultimate dated photo reference machine. The feature I really like is the wheels. An excellent impression of the real thing though the lack of daylight forward of the centre axle is a pity. I don't do O gauge, but if I did this is very encouraging.

 

Adam

[81A Oldoak]

Well, I've ordered a brace of them. They'll probably end up being customised for light railway use alongside one of our Hudswell Clarkes.

[adrianbs]

Hi all   Only just come across the site, sorry for the delay, I am sure you are all waiting with bated breath for my contributions.   Nick Holliday has done a great job of explaining the "Rivets"  and I think the reason for the complicated design may be due to COHSE regs. or the equivalent in the late 1800s. Apart from insulating the tanks which probably prevented burnt fingers if they got really hot, I suspect the "Rivet" design was so that the sharp corners of Hex nuts, which could potentially have caught the clothing etc of some city gent, was eliminated. This is apart from the fact that it looked nicer.    There are slight differences between the first six and later locos with regard to the number of handrail supports along the boiler side. One less on the first six and a consequent repositioning of all;fixing bolts between the side tanks and the boiler. Terriers were almost pannier tanks as the tanks were largely supported by a very heavy plate over the boiler top.  This plate was too thick to have the rather sharp bend shown on the Dapol model, it should have quite a large radius between the large NUTS ( NB not little rivets ) and the boiler.  I hope the model is 7mm/ft this time and not 1/43 like the wagons. .

     I have currently mislaid my files on Terriers otherwise I would post a picture or two.  I shall be disappointed if the extra tankside "rivets" are there as I plan to have one as Boxhill when preserved in '48 if the rest of the model is OK, and I can get name transfers (Hint hint ! )   I will have to try and remove the redundant ones and touch in the lining. Failing that it may have to be an Alan Brackenborough rename and touch in, which will be rather expensive.      Regards all adrianbs

Edited July 3, 2014 by adrianbs

[adrianbs]

Hi all  And a PS for Nick Holliday, the number of tank fixings is 12 not 10, there are 3 each end and 2 in the middle originally but later 4 more.  By no means all locos, either as A1s or A1xs  had raised  buffer housings and a number of preserved locos still have the original buffer position.  Boxhill, when preserved, correctly reverted to the lower position having had the raised body and its heavy casting behind when used for auto train work, Only about 20 locos out of 50 were so used and it would appear the others were not modified.  There are many pitfalls with Terriers and it will be interesting to see how, or if, they are overcome, especially after the initial releases when other locos are produced which need slight differences to be correct.  The plumbing of the air pump will be an intriguing exercise to do realistically, even in lost wax brass it is difficult enough to produce. Just painting it with all the lining will be quite a feat.  I hope the overall painting is done well enough for the original livery that a full repaint is not required to get it right, as that will be a very expensive exercise and will probably cost more than the loco. 

        Some of the bigger retailers have already sold all their allocation of some liveries and if they have changed the descriptions as PD&SWR has correctly stated,some customers will not get their order at all as their choice will not be appearing.  Even more frustrating for them will be if, as stated in the GOG Gazette, the next batch will be significantly  more  expensive and may be some time away depending on when the next free production slot  is.   Oh!  the joys of outsourcing to China.and the need to preorder, sight unseen, models which may, or may not, actually be produced, and may, or may not, be as good as you were expecting. Long gone, in so many cases, are the days when you could pop into your local model shop and look at a prospective purchase and decide which model you wanted or wait for a reliable review before making your mind up.        Regards all adrianbs

.

Edited July 3, 2014 by adrianbs

[cromptonnut]

 Long gone, in so many cases, are the days when you could pop into your local model shop and look at a prospective purchase and decide which model you wanted or wait for a reliable review before making your mind up.       

.

 

Has that ever been the case, in the last 50 years, before the last couple of years, in rtr O gauge though?  The fact that ready to run O gauge exists at all should surely be a cause for celebration...?

[adrianbs]

Hi all,  I have been modelling in 7mm for about 55 years now, and I clearly remember over the years being able to inspect RTR O gauge models at shows and in the few shops that stocked O gauge ( are there that many even today ? )  True these models were either handmade, kitbuilt or pre/postwar  RTR.  Bassett Lowke, Exley, LMC, Milbro,Triang Big Big and Lima but could be found in shops. There was no preordering going on, unless you were commissioning a model from one of the specialist RTR builders. In addition there were RTR models from Rivarossi Lima and Pola Maxi etc of continental design often available. The standards of many were not that high but nor were the standards of 4mm at that time.

       With regard to the design of the model Terrier it would seem from the interview by Mark Chivers with  Joel Bright and  Richard Webster that most of the design is done in China and that the UK end simply approves, or not, the results.  The original CAD images of 2 years ago show an A1x but the current design of the A1 seems to follow that fairly closely as far as it is possible to tell. This was well before RW took a hand although no doubt he has been doing a lot of rechecking of the design. The additional 4 tankside fixings were NOT on the original CAD.

       The Saga of changes to what is actually being released is most baffling, Starting in July 2012 version 001 has gone from 32640 to 32655;  002 from 32646 to 32661; 003 from "Freshwater" W8 to SR Green 2644 and 004 from "Stepney" to "Ashstead" to "Thames" . Two additional versions were later announced and 005 has changed from LBSC Marsh livery  661 ex "Sutton" to "Brighton" in Stroudley post Paris exhibition livery whilst 006  has changed from SR green W9 (I.OW.) to KESR blue  "Bodiam".  It wil be interesting to see what happens to preorders placed for locos at an early date, will they be offered another version, which, of course, they may not want or told their choice is not available and there is no stock of a suitable alternative.  This problem has already occurred with the SR pillbox brakevan and some retailers appear not to have realised, even now, that  there has been a total change both to the liveries and the design with the models due in this week ??.

          Has anyone with preorders been contacted about the changes to the Terriers ??      Regards all adrianbs. 

Edited July 7, 2014 by adrianbs

[ianmaccormac]

Wow! Superb looking photos of the EP!

Just been looking at these photos again, and the ones on the Tower Models webpage.

The cab steps are missing for the crew to climb into the cab! Not in any photos so far!

I am presuming these are separate mouldings and just haven't been glued on yet?

Have ordered an early LBSCR version in Improved Green from Tower. Named Thames. Need to get on with some coaches now!

Cheers

Ian in Blackpool

Edited July 13, 2014 by ianmaccormac

[adrianbs]

Hi  All  I am afraid Jon Fitness and others will be disappointed with regard to I O W variants as those originally listed have now disappeared on the new listing if it is still current. I hope they have not placed preorders in anticipation.  I have spoken to RW about a couple of points which I was concerned about, in the hope that some changes can still be made.  The appearance of the A1x prepros will be interesting as we have only had the original 2012 CAD so far and the smokebox rivetting arrangement  will be important for anyone wishing to model other locos and/or different eras.      Regards  all  adrianbs.

Edited July 18, 2014 by adrianbs

[hartleymartin]

I just hope that they come apart easily enough for the tinkerers to get into some projects producing more of the variations! I'm still keen to get a couple of them, one being done up as the NSWGR N67 Class (the "Australian Terriers")

[adrianbs]

Hi  Hartleymartin      That is one if the points I have already raised as in order, for instance, to alter the rivetting arrangement on the smokebox to remove those not required it is essential to be able to remove the smokebox to be able to get at the lower rivets. I have assumed the multitude of variations will not all be catered for and that, as per the CAD there will be a "Full house" of rivets. For many locos some of the 3 sets of rivets will need to be removed.   The smokebox is currently glued to the footplate and not easily removeable according to RW. As there may be as many as 7 possible combinations I would be surprised if Dapol are planning that many different mouldings. Then there are all the chimney and smokebox door options as well, which may require different smokebox tooling.  It very much depends how authentic Dapol consider the model needs to be but if the attitude of many modellers to locos is far more critical than to wagons these points will need careful consideration.                Regards  all adrianbs

[Guest Isambarduk]

You make some very good points there, Adrian. 
 
From my experience with reworking the Ixion Hudswell Clarke into Humber, a much earlier prototype*, how much reworking that can be done rather depends on how much confidence you have in what you are doing, which itself is rather based on the consequences if things go wrong and one's ability to put it all right again!
 
I would say 'Look at it this way: if you want a model of a particular Terrier then look at the Dapol offering and decide if it's a good starting point for you, or would a kit be a better starting point (or indeed, would starting from scratch be most productive).  For example, the smokebox on the Ixion Husdswell Clarke was glued to the running plate and the buffer beams were integral with it but that didn't stop me from removing them to work on it and replace them, respectively, but others may not have had the confidence because they haven't had the experience / not got the machine tools / still have all their common sense and so on - I do understand that - so a kit, such as the erstwhile Impetus offering, or the Tower Brass RTR might have been a better starting point for them.  So, don't automatically be put off appreciable alteration, weight it up a bit first.
 
David

* See the story in captioned pictures at:   www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69095-idea-conversion-of-ixion-hudswell-clarke/?p=1001446
or, in a more collated and complete form, at:    www.davidlosmith.co.uk/GCR_Humber.htm

[hartleymartin]

The smokebox on the Hudswell Clarke might have been glued to the footplate, but I got it unglued to re-spray it weathered black.

[adrianbs]

Hi all  I appreciate that many things which don't seem to come apart will often do so but it takes a brave soul to be the first to find the solution if there is one.  I know that if I want Boxhill in  1948 condition I have a few challenges, not the least will be to remove the "Brighton" letteriing without damaging the underlying Stroudley "Improved engine green"

I will also have to alter various other parts as Boxhill in York is not quite like it was in 1948 in a number of other areas. Fortunately it's status in '48 meant that quite a lot of pictures exist to check its appearance.  I suppose it depends how good the Chinese superglue is and based on the SR brake van it is not difficult to get parts separated.

    Regards all  adrianbs

[adrianbs]

Hi all ,  Dapol have just shown the first prepros of the A1X and noted that a few tweaks are still to be done.  The points that I have noticed which one hopes may be easy to rectify or for which allternative tooling will be provided are the smokebox rivets   2644 should have none  32661 should have none on the front face of the smokebox and  32655 should have a full house as per the prepro.  The Westinghouse pipe is correct for 2644 but needs to be replaced by a Vac pipe on the BR variants and 32661 has it to the left whilst 32655 has it to the right. I expect a set of alternative pipes and fixing positions will be supplied to accommodate these options.  This latest view does not show if the roof has been modified but this has already been mentioned.   I hope the paint finish will hide the join in the chimney which at the moment is rather obtrusive,  The other point which I hope will be amended is the position of the hinge straps on the smokebox door  which appear to be much too far apart.. The gap between strap and the centre boss should be about the same as the strap width but the sample is over twice that.  The "face" of a loco is a very important feature which the Rev. Awdry made such good use of.

     They do seem to have got the brakeshoes closer to the wheels this time if the photo shows them correctly.  I have not dared count the rivets in case the assassination squad is lurking in the bushes. I have to comment on the size of the buffer fixing bolts however, as they are almost invisible, as is the thickness of the base flanges for the buffers themselves. both should be about twice the dimensions shown. The hexagonal bolt heads are almost as large over corners as the flange and protrude nearly twice as far.  At the moment the steps are absent but I hope there will be a couple of options for the early and late designs.

    If the dimensions are OK I should be able modify a Brighton to Boxhill without too much problem and without any repainting if I am careful.  Regards adrianbs 

Edited August 2, 2014 by adrianbs

[Dava]

Given that the EP on the Dapol site is the A1x, we can see the detail differences between them,with the drum smokebox on the A1x being in plastic you can remove any rivets not required. For me the A1 is the more attractive loco.

 

This looks to be a well designed loco we can look forward to, next month?

 

Dava

[adrianbs]

Hi Dava et al,  Do you fancy removing the smokebox door hinges and replacing them in the correct position it the production model is the same as the prepro ??

     Or indeed replacing all the front face rivets to get them in the correct positions as well if you do not want a blank front face.  Regards adrianbs

[Guest Isambarduk]

"Do you fancy removing the smokebox door hinges and replacing them ..."
 
Why not?  Just, à la my Ixion Husdwell Clarke:
 
1.  Before:
 

2. During:
 

3. After:
 

It was easier with machine tools but I never cease to be amazed what others achieve on their kitchen tables.

David

[Dava]

Hi Dava et al,  Do you fancy removing the smokebox door hinges and replacing them in the correct position it the production model is the same as the prepro ??

     Or indeed replacing all the front face rivets to get them in the correct positions as well if you do not want a blank front face.  Regards adrianbs

 

When I see the actual model (the A1 for me) I'll be consulting Colin Binnie's little book on 'The Brighton Terriers' with its excellent drawings to determine what work is actually required, rather than judging from a photo of the EP. Until then, may I suggest we 'get these matters in proportion'?

 

Dava

[adrianbs]

Hi  All   Personally  I would rather see these things  "in proportion" before they go into production than having to go to the lengths Isambarduk is prepared to. especially if you need to replace all the rivets as well, which I notice was not necessary on his model.  I rather fear that,,like the SR brakevan, what has been shown is final tooling design, although perhaps we will hear from Dapol that the alterations will be done.  The strange thing is that the original CADs of 2 years ago did not have these errors, so obviously there was no need to comment about the problem until this week when it appears it may be far too late. Quite what has gone wrong in the intervening period it would be interesting to hear but I don't expect we will.  Once again it looks very much as though those who could have helped have been left out of the loop until it is too late.and the Chinese?? have been left to their own devices.  It will be very disappointing if the "face" and roof of the loco are both wrong bearing in mnd how much that will affect the character of the model. It may be a cheap loco but I would prefer to pay more if it prevented it looking cheap as well. Fortunately I only want an A1 so these smokebox problems will not worry me at all, just so long as the roof is modified and there are no more unexpected problems elsewhere. I don't know if these errors have arisen because Laser scanning was not used or if they arose even if it was used and the information was not properly incorporated. Maybe, once again, the researcher should have resorted to rulers, photographs and the drawing board. 

    Colin Binnie's  book is very useful indeed but is inadequate on its own to be used for every loco at every period. Dated photos if available are always the most vital source of detailed information.      Regards all adrianbs

Edited August 11, 2014 by adrianbs

[adrianbs]

Hi All   Having been pointed in the direction of Dapol's Facebook page where more pictures of the seriously innaccurate Milk tanks were to be found, I also came across additional views of the A1x.  These confirmed my fears about the appearance of the "Face" and also the roof.   Bearing in mind Richard Webster's insistence that the view of models from above is vitally important and I quote :-  

 " Dapol has gone to the trouble to produce a brand new roof tooling to improve this vehicle, and in my opinion the tops of models are very important as we are always looking down rather than with the prototype where we are normally looking up unless of course you are on a bridge or bank"

    As this was done, even for the SR brake van, one hopes the same attitude will prevail when it comes to the roof of a loco, especially one of LBSC origin as their roofs were so very distinctive and very low down on such a small loco. At the moment the Terriers are looking quite good but it would be a great shame not to modify two vitally important aspects of it's appearance. There are a number of variations of the smokebox front but none look like the current prepro and the shape of the real roof certainly does not have the appearance of a "Dome" stuck on a flat plate but  has rather more subtle continuously flowing  " S " curves from the edge to the top with variations in radius.  Laser scanning would have enabled this to be easily reproduced but I understand that perhaps this was not done in spite of claims to the contrary..  It may look different when painted white but the reverse curve to the outer edge looks much to sharp to me with too much flat around the domed area.  A quick check with a "contour gauge" would enable the radii to be checked.  I carry one  "on safari" in my bag just in case such occasions arise as it is sometimes very difficult to get such detail right any other way, not being able to afford a laser scanner !!    Regards all adrianbs.