Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[sb67]

The whole speed thing is interesting, got me thinking how I could apply it to a small shunting layout! 

Steve.

[Enterprisingwestern]

The whole speed thing is interesting, got me thinking how I could apply it to a small shunting layout! 

Steve.

 

If it's anything like most of the shunting planks I've seen, I would say speed things up. In the real world staff got on with shunting and bashed things about a bit, unlike the somnambulistic speeds seen on most layouts. I sometimes think owners are just showing off how slow their loco's will go, especially if they have built them theirselves.

 

Mike.

[Regularity]

When you are standing trackside, even 5 mph - which is quicker than usual walking pace - seems pretty fast when tens of tons are rolling by.

 

Shunting is one area where (good) sound, integrated with inertia simulation and the ability to coast and brake, comes into its own, as you can simply watch some films to get a feel for the right sounds (especially with steam) and then try to replicate it. The result is probably slower than you think, Mike, but quite a bit more brisk than most of the modellers you are commenting on operate at.

 

And no, the sound doesn't have to be via DCC: it could be transmitted from the control unit to a bluetooth speaker.

[Zomboid]

And no, the sound doesn't have to be via DCC: it could be transmitted from the control unit to a bluetooth speaker.

Most modern sound chipped locos will run on DC, though to be honest the operating compromise isn't worth it (assuming you find the sounds pleasing, which not everyone does).

[ianathompson]

I would not disagree that some layouts do shunt too slowly but there were safety aspects to the activity.

 

Having handed up and taken the train staff from class 66s with a loaded train behind them I was well aware of the bulk of the real thing at close quarters.

I can assure you that self preservation was a thought uppermost in my mind as a signalman. You did not want to be anywhere nearby if anything went wrong!

 

As I have just observed on my website, in an article that covers shunting, amongst other things, it was the cause of many deaths and crippling injuries to railwaymen.

 

With regard to getting on with it and bashing things around I suspect that you are referring to fly shunting.

Whilst the bulk of the prototype vehicles allowed this technique most models are too small to allow it.

 

I suspect also that it was also mainly carried out where specialist brakemen were employed rather than in local goods yards.

 

Ian T

[The Stationmaster]

Ah, shunting.  An area where things on model railways always look slow to me compared with the real world where the aim was to get the job done and get back in the cabin for the pontoon school or a cuppa.  Setting back with a mainline diesel usually seemed to involve things going a sight faster than walking pace - particularly noticeable if the Guard stepped down off the brakevan and found himself almost running (or, fortunately very occasionally, falling over).  And to loose shunt and particularly double shunt with a long raft of wagons definitely mean a 'smart' walking pace but not so fast that it was difficult to get a shunting pole in to hook off wagons.  And moving up the yard for the next job would see a 350 fully opened up so at least 10 mph and possibly faster.

 

The dfficulty with modelling it is of course the lack of mass in wagons and the ability to brake them when they loose shunted - but normally, even in flat yards, Shunters etc had to run to catch them in order to pin down the brakes.

[The Stationmaster]

I would not disagree that some layouts do shunt too slowly but there were safety aspects to the activity.

 

Having handed up and taken the train staff from class 66s with a loaded train behind them I was well aware of the bulk of the real thing at close quarters.

I can assure you that self preservation was a thought uppermost in my mind as a signalman. You did not want to be anywhere nearby if anything went wrong!

 

As I have just observed on my website, in an article that covers shunting, amongst other things, it was the cause of many deaths and crippling injuries to railwaymen.

 

With regard to getting on with it and bashing things around I suspect that you are referring to fly shunting.

Whilst the bulk of the prototype vehicles allowed this technique most models are too small to allow it.

 

I suspect also that it was also mainly carried out where specialist brakemen were employed rather than in local goods yards.

 

Ian T

I would challenge anyone to model fly shunting - probably impossible to slacken off a coupling when the wagon is being pulled and then get the loco away from it in sufficient time to change the points before the wagon(s) take a different route through the points from that already taken by the loco.  Due to lack of mass in model wagons loose shunting is going to be pretty difficult to model and double shunting probably extremely difficult.

 

Definitions -

 

Loose shunting - the loco propels the wagon(s) and one or a raft is uncoupled on the move to run on their own into a particular siding.

 

Double shunting - similar to loose shunting but more than one wagon/raft of wagons is uncoupled while on the move to go to more than one siding with points being changed between each raft.

 

Fly shunting - the loco hauls the wagons and is uncoupled on the move going in one direction at the points while the now uncoupled wagon(s) go in a different direction at those points.  A rather dangerous practice which needed considerable skill both in uncoupling the wagon(s) at just the right speed and moment in order to give them sufficient impetus once the loco had been uncoupled, and in changing the points at just the right time.  Ideally best done with the initial snatch of couplings as the loco starts but that won't usually give the wagons sufficient impetus to get rolling very far.

[APOLLO]

Then there's Aussie "Fly" shunting !!!

 

 

Wonder if these lads are still with us - brave or daft (or both) I don't know - but they certainly got the job done sharp.

 

Brit15

Edited May 15, 2018 by APOLLO

[Ravenser]

Then there's Aussie "Fly" shunting !!!

 

 

Wonder if these lads are still with us - brave or daft (or both) I don't know - but they certainly got the job done sharp.

 

Brit15

 

 

Darling Harbour Goods in Sydney - traditionally Sydney's main goods terminal but on its way out by that date as the Inner Harbour wharves declined. It's a sobering thought that that video was filmed two years before we went out to Sydney, though as there was very little in the way of railway enthusiast info around I wasn't really aware of the place's existence and never tried to poke my nose down there. The 4 wheel S-type wagons shown must have been on their last legs by then

 

It's worth pointing out that you're looking at a railway much of whose suburban passenger stock then featured large manual sliding doors which were normally left wide open when running ... Seeing some 9 year-old schoolkid perched on his schoolcase with a wide open door at his back 6 inches away while the train is running at 40 mph always used to disconcert me, though I never saw anyone fall out (That seemed to be reserved for the bottom of the Illawarra line very late on a Saturday night) . Being of a nervous disposition I used to keep one hand firmly gripping the bulkhead handrail when standing next to an open door 

 

Six years before the film was shot they were still using Victorian 0-6-0 longboiler goods engines to shunt Darling Harbour, because the short wheelbase suited the curves (replaced by the 73-class diesel hydraulics shown). One of the followup YouTube videos seems to be a film account , probably shot late 60s/early 70s

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0izTlCTHJc

[The Stationmaster]

Then there's Aussie "Fly" shunting !!!

 

 

Wonder if these lads are still with us - brave or daft (or both) I don't know - but they certainly got the job done sharp.

 

Brit15

 

As near as I can place it of an old map this is a photo of a small part of that area which I took when I was working out in Sydney in 2004 - as you can see it had changed a lot!  (The monorail has since gone as well)

 

 

This film goes back to the steam age, very interesting

 

[ianathompson]

Loose shunting - the loco propels the wagon(s) and one or a raft is uncoupled on the move to run on their own into a particular siding.

 

Double shunting - similar to loose shunting but more than one wagon/raft of wagons is uncoupled while on the move to go to more than one siding with points being changed between each raft.

 

Fly shunting - the loco hauls the wagons and is uncoupled on the move going in one direction at the points while the now uncoupled wagon(s) go in a different direction at those points.  A rather dangerous practice which needed considerable skill both in uncoupling the wagon(s) at just the right speed and moment in order to give them sufficient impetus once the loco had been uncoupled, and in changing the points at just the right time.  Ideally best done with the initial snatch of couplings as the loco starts but that won't usually give the wagons sufficient impetus to get rolling very far.

 

Thanks for that. Loose shunting was what I meant!

 

Ian t

[Clive Mortimore]

On Saturday I purchased some old coaches including some Trix ones. Now the Trix ones will be used to make a Edinburgh to Glasgow unit, a 3 car to start with, see Signaller 69's thread. The Tri-ang ones to make my Swindon 4 car Inter city up to a six car unit, I have found a few photos showing a normal four car with a trailer and a power car bringing it up to six coaches. This morning i was thinking about the slightly underscale  Trix roofs, well they are as near as damn the same profile as the Hastings line units, so I am going to have a bash at scratchuilding a 6S unit at some point in time.

 

Ed to add a link to martyn's thread. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/112980-signaller69s-projects-the-class-126-saga-continues/

Edited May 15, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Joseph_Pestell]

Then there's Aussie "Fly" shunting !!!

 

 

Wonder if these lads are still with us - brave or daft (or both) I don't know - but they certainly got the job done sharp.

 

Brit15

 

Isn't that Kylie leaning on the point lever?

[Clive Mortimore]

 

 

More relevance to my modelling and my layout than Australian fly shunting. 

[Ravenser]

 

More relevance to my modelling and my layout than Australian fly shunting. 

 

You're basically  a passenger railway , with a few token freights circulating round the room as mobile backscene  (at least until you finish the fiddle yard and get addicted to wagon kits..)

 

I reckon you're quite safe... http://www.auscisionmodels.com.au/73%20Class%20Page.htm

 

At least giving everything plenty of running at this stage means that anything on the layout or stock that's questionable will emerge now - and be tackled before the layout is covered in scenery and you can't get at anything. I've seen a few models in my time that looked pretty but didn't really work - because the builder had no layout and was blissfully unaware that all was not well

 

Added to which you're getting something  out of the layout without having to do two years hard labour before you see any reward

[Clive Mortimore]

You're basically  a passenger railway , with a few token freights circulating round the room as mobile backscene  (at least until you finish the fiddle yard and get addicted to wagon kits..)

 

I reckon you're quite safe... http://www.auscisionmodels.com.au/73%20Class%20Page.htm

 

At least giving everything plenty of running at this stage means that anything on the layout or stock that's questionable will emerge now - and be tackled before the layout is covered in scenery and you can't get at anything. I've seen a few models in my time that looked pretty but didn't really work - because the builder had no layout and was blissfully unaware that all was not well

 

Added to which you're getting something  out of the layout without having to do two years hard labour before you see any reward

The layout is designed with operation as the main part of it. Building stock when and if I want to has always been part of my way of modelling. I have some locos dating back to 1985 that still are not finished but might be one day.

 

Making sure the layout operates and the stock chosen for it runs fine are a higher priority to me than the scenery, I see that over all roof over the station when the unfinished DMU glides along the imaginary platform. Not like some lovely looking layouts that even after years of being operated the prize train still tumbles off the point in front of the lady on the platform bench with her legs dangling in mid air.

 

The layout is working, and quite well, I have 10 more years of modelling left in me. I have done the hardest part of this layout getting it working the next part I can take my time over.

[Regularity]

A sound philosophy, based upon your own assessment of your own needs and what makes you happy.

[richard i]

The layout is designed with operation as the main part of it. Building stock when and if I want to has always been part of my way of modelling. I have some locos dating back to 1985 that still are not finished but might be one day.

 

Making sure the layout operates and the stock chosen for it runs fine are a higher priority to me than the scenery, I see that over all roof over the station when the unfinished DMU glides along the imaginary platform. Not like some lovely looking layouts that even after years of being operated the prize train still tumbles off the point in front of the lady on the platform bench with her legs dangling in mid air.

 

The layout is working, and quite well, I have 10 more years of modelling left in me. I have done the hardest part of this layout getting it working the next part I can take my time over.

Ten! At least twenty more years yet my dear boy. Though is it a capital offense to divine someone's life span. It was for a king in the Middle Ages.

[St Enodoc]

Ten! At least twenty more years yet my dear boy. Though is it a capital offense to divine someone's life span. It was for a king in the Middle Ages.

As someone far wiser than I once told me:

 

Plan to die tomorrow. Expect to live forever.

 

G. Reaper

[Clive Mortimore]

Ten! At least twenty more years yet my dear boy. Though is it a capital offense to divine someone's life span. It was for a king in the Middle Ages.

I am the king of my own domain.

[newbryford]

I am the king of my own domain.

 

I thought that said "King of my own doorman"...............................

 

Which reminds me. I was once asked to fill in a questionnaire, so I went outside and punched the doorman.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

I blame the medication as it's that time of night....... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........

[Clive Mortimore]

I thought that said "King of my own doorman"...............................

 

Which reminds me. I was once asked to fill in a questionnaire, so I went outside and punched the doorman.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

I blame the medication as it's that time of night....... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........

Talking of doormen, I will be on duty for Wrec-rail 2018, the Return. Date 30th June, location St Nicholas Church Hall, Rectory Lane, Little Bowden, Market Harborough, Leics. LE16 8AS.

 

 

I understand one of the attractions is some bloke with a bunch of yella coaches.......just saying.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Talking of doormen, I will be on duty for Wrec-rail 2018, the Return. Date 30th June, location St Nicholas Church Hall, Rectory Lane, Little Bowden, Market Harborough, Leics. LE16 8AS.

 

 

I understand one of the attractions is some bloke with a bunch of yella coaches.......just saying.

 

A DCC evangelist as well I believe!

You've got double jeopardy.

 

Mike.

[Clive Mortimore]

A DCC evangelist as well I believe!

You've got double jeopardy.

 

Mike.

Hi Mike

 

In the words of the yella fella last weekend "See I am controlling two trains at once", as he waved one controller at me. Na controlling one and the other was set on its own course of destiny.  I am not sure which one of the two he was controlling and I don't think he was.

 

I will say his train set did look a good un.

[TheQ]

Then there's Aussie "Fly" shunting !!!

 

 

Wonder if these lads are still with us - brave or daft (or both) I don't know - but they certainly got the job done sharp.

 

Brit15

A bit different to UK fly shunting where either the wagon had to be propelled uncoupled, or worse the shunter had to run alongside and place his pole between the wagons and lift off the 3 link coupling.