Simon Says

[JohnR]

Mr Kohler has a blog over at the Hornby website - here is the latest post. Very interesting reading, I'm sure you will agree!

 

http://www.Hornby.com/news/simonsays/tornado-the-wind-of-change/

[andyman7]

A very interesting and candid article, especially where he relates the comparison with Bachmann! The inside story on design compromises with the GWR big tanks is also very informative. 

[Ozexpatriate]

The inside story on design compromises with the GWR big tanks is also very informative.

Yes, it explains a lot.

 

I think we can make the inference, without being unfair, that the short cuts made were deliberate and a result of, let's be polite and say, the 'price sensitivity' of the British outline market.

 

In many ways we, collectively, brought this on ourselves with grumbling about prices.

[BlackRat]

Spot on, it doesn't matter if it's cheap part work coaches or static rtr british locos which aren't particularly brilliant, people will buy them in droves.....because they are cheap!

 

Visit any swap meet etc and just look at the amount of tat bought and sold, and it just about tells you all you need to know.

 

But a hi fidelity model with all the bells or horns which comes at a reasonable price, given the market place etc etc........,.,

 

And we are having histrionics!

 

Well some are anyway!

[jonny777]

I find it interesting that he says European modellers are prepared to pay extra for added detail, whereas us British are not.

 

I wonder why this is? Are we really a nation of tightwads who want everything, but only if it is cheap?

[m0rris]

Perhaps this is because the link between the British modelling scene and the 'trainset' scene is a lot stronger than on the continent where there seems to be a stronger link between the modelling and collecting side of the hobby?

[Taz]

Interesting article.

 

I think a lot of the flack Hornby received about design clever (particularly with the GWR large tanks) wasn't so much the concept but the way it was implemented. Going for a moulded smokebox dart but then doing a fully detailed boiler backhead just didn't make sense. Maybe this was in part to the way the design was modified part way through development?

It could probably be argued that Bachmann have being doing a version of design clever for a long time but they have been doing it much more intelligently and consequently have less flack thrown their way.

 

The sweet price/detail point is a difficult nut to crack. For every 'must have separate detail at any price' proponent there will be a corresponding 'build to a price' advocate. I don't envy the manufacturers trying to work this one out. 

Although it is interesting to look at some of the smaller, newer players in the market( DJM, Rapido, RealTrack etc) who seem to be hitting the detail/price compromise with much more success. Maybe the big boys can learn a trick or two from the new boys in town.

[Andy Y]

people will buy them in droves.....because they are cheap!

Even if they're poor knock-offs that someone else put their heart and soul into designing.

 

Granted, some people are doing some modelling with them but.....

[Ian Hargrave]

I find it interesting that he says European modellers are prepared to pay extra for added detail, whereas us British are not.

 

I wonder why this is? Are we really a nation of tightwads who want everything, but only if it is cheap?

I think it's mainly a question of what you are used to.30/40 years ago,Fleischmann,Roco and others were producing the level of detail and accuracy we now demand as a given.In the 70's and 80's, U.K.quality was in the doldrums and remained there for a long time.Most of us who wanted such quality turned to HO

Now European prices have shot into the stratosphere.....way ahead of what we are now grumbling about in the UK market.Remember that both Fleischmann and Roco have experienced financial difficulties recently and we don't really know how the European market is actually holding up at the moment.All I do know is that it is way outside my comfort zone.

[stewartingram]

Only have to go down the High Street and see the "pound shops" that are flourishing.

 

Stewart

[finelines]

There are two things I would like to say. One is a repeat of what I wrote elsewhere. I was taken in by the negative spin given to the "design clever" concept and passed up on buying the one thing I have wanted since 1952, a 2-Bil. When prices started hurtling up, I wondered whether I had made a mistake and was lucky enough to get one of the Father's Day offer at £78. It is superb. I will be having a 2-Hal.

 

Secondly, I think they have taken detail too far for British railway modellers. What we look for, in the main, is not the same as on the continent. I think we are much more "hands on" modellers, whereas they are collectors. Until Hornby brought out their Southern BY I was fairly confident that I could keep in touch with the rtr boys with my kits, but that was in another league.

 

Roger

[trisonic]

Hornby may have “design clever” but Bachmann have “Sound Value” (with caps) over here.

 

Read the review in August 2014 Model Railroader of their version of the NS “Heritage” fleet for the epitome in backhanded compliments....

 

Some of the molded on detail to the body includes “hand grabs” at each end and  “rooftop fan grills” Sound features lose EQ and Reverb (vital in my view for getting realistic sounds at normal listening ranges) and others such as train brakes.

 

The final sentence says that they are “credible” models (my quotes) of their famous prototypes at $299.99. They do run very well.

 

Best, Pete.

[pheaton]

I don't believe we are a nation of tight wads.....I believe we are starting to come to terms with the fact that paying over £100 for a model train is starting to stretch the limits of justification!!! IIRC European models always have been quite expensive compared to over here, happy to be corrected though.

 

As for sprung buffers this was hyped up by the modelling media, in fact I recall one review marking down a model for the lack of sprung buffers even though they don't prove any function whatsoever so it will be interesting how this is reflected in future reviews!

[buffalo]

..The inside story on design compromises with the GWR big tanks is also very informative. 

 

Maybe, it provides an excuse for the 'bearings' but they didn't have moulded handrails. Would it have cost more to remove the spurious lamp irons or put the rear buffer beam numbers on the right side?

 

Nick

[Ian Hargrave]

There are two things I would like to say. One is a repeat of what I wrote elsewhere. I was taken in by the negative spin given to the "design clever" concept and passed up on buying the one thing I have wanted since 1952, a 2-Bil. When prices started hurtling up, I wondered whether I had made a mistake and was lucky enough to get one of the Father's Day offer at £78. It is superb. I will be having a 2-Hal.

Secondly, I think they have taken detail too far for British railway modellers. What we look for, in the main, is not the same as on the continent. I think we are much more "hands on" modellers, whereas they are collectors. Until Hornby brought out their Southern BY I was fairly confident that I could keep in touch with the rtr boys with my kits, but that was in another league.

Roger

It is a rare occasion when I activate the "disagree" icon...how can you take detail too far? You cannot pigeonhole either European or UK Modellers in such an oversimplified way....there are so-called "collectors" and "hands on" on both sides of the Channel.We want and welcome quality,detailed and accurate models that perform as well,if not better than their continental counterparts...something we are now realising after decades of poor quality tat that we tolerated for far too long because we didn't know any better.

[Traksy]

Personally I'd rather buy one properly detailed loco instead of two done on the cheap. Much more concerned about the quality of my stock than amassing large quantities of it.

[Matabiau]

As someone who lives on "the continent" I can assure you that the majority of ready to run trains are of inferior quality than the best of Bachmann and Hornby in the UK and much more expensive. Here in France there is much less choice in terms of number of models although there is a much greater range of suppliers covering all different levels of detail. Not surprisingly the most detailed models are very expensive and not far off bespoke. There are also toy like models for similar prices to Hornby and Bachmann mainstream products.  The biggest difference between the two markets is the number of customers. With fewer customers and hence fewer models, prices are naturally higher.

Continental modelers are modelers and enthusiasts, not just collectors. Given the prices we have to pay here best buy only a couple of trains and make the most of those on your layout.

[S.A.C Martin]

I find the justification for putting the heavy tanks chassis specification down (but conveniently ignoring the price rise on a lower spec) but citing the success of Tornado (which does have brass bearings and a flywheel) to be rather missing the point.

 

You put the prices up year on year, in line with inflation and other factors. Fair enough. You significantly lower the specification of a new "main range" - not railroad - model and keep the price equivalent to other models within the same range with much higher specifications.

 

Just six months separate the releases of the Hornby O1 and GWR heavy tanks. Sorry Mr Kohler, I'll defend Hornby on a lot of things but not on reducing detail and basic specifications and effectively raising prices then blaming a discerning British public for reacting badly to it.

 

Bachmann doesn't get the guff Hornby does because they get the modern modeller. That's why all new models have brass bearings, due cast components with separately fitted detail and to reasonable price points. Yes they've had a price rise recently but it's still a dozen times and more, more reasonable paying £150 for a Bachmann A1than £140 for a Hornby heavy tank.

[Andy Hayter]

There are two things I would like to say. One is a repeat of what I wrote elsewhere. I was taken in by the negative spin given to the "design clever" concept and passed up on buying the one thing I have wanted since 1952, a 2-Bil. When prices started hurtling up, I wondered whether I had made a mistake and was lucky enough to get one of the Father's Day offer at £78. It is superb. I will be having a 2-Hal.

 

Secondly, I think they have taken detail too far for British railway modellers. What we look for, in the main, is not the same as on the continent. I think we are much more "hands on" modellers, whereas they are collectors. Until Hornby brought out their Southern BY I was fairly confident that I could keep in touch with the rtr boys with my kits, but that was in another league.

 

Roger

 

 

I have to agree with Ian.  You are the second person to say that continental modellers are collectors rather than modellers and my experience in Germany and France is the exact opposite.  Sure, there are collectors out there - just as there are in the UK - after all how many layouts are there with a Wainwright C in SECR around or LYR layouts with the Locomotion 2-4-2 tank?  There are also a lot of very talented continental modellers.  As Matabiau says prices here are frequently eye watering and many modellers are forced to buy the "train set" versions and then expend much energy, time and skill in converting pigs ears into silk purses - and with some considerable success.

 

The simple fact is - and I said so almost a year ago - UK modellers are (still) not ready to pay the realistic price for their highly detailed models and Simon K hits that nail squarely on the head.  In another thread, a poster reckons that a diesel from Hornby should cost £45 based on inflation rates over the last 20 years.

[pheaton]

I have to agree with Ian.  You are the second person to say that continental modellers are collectors rather than modellers and my experience in Germany and France is the exact opposite.  Sure, there are collectors out there - just as there are in the UK - after all how many layouts are there with a Wainwright C in SECR around or LYR layouts with the Locomotion 2-4-2 tank?  There are also a lot of very talented continental modellers.  As Matabiau says prices here are frequently eye watering and many modellers are forced to buy the "train set" versions and then expend much energy, time and skill in converting pigs ears into silk purses - and with some considerable success.

 

The simple fact is - and I said so almost a year ago - UK modellers are (still) not ready to pay the realistic price for their highly detailed models and Simon K hits that nail squarely on the head.  In another thread, a poster reckons that a diesel from Hornby should cost £45 based on inflation rates over the last 20 years.

 

without disagreeing with you at all because i dont know, what is your idea for a realistic price? You cant determine this without knowing the costs which have gone into the design, development, and manufacture and delivery for each model?

[jonhall]

 

 

The Bachmann management are questioning if it is vital for models to have sprung buffers, rotating fans, opening Smoke Box doors or any of the additional detail that keeps adding to the final cost of todays models. 

 

the quote above is from Simon, how many Bachman models have rotating fans or opening smokebox doors? I can't think of a Bachmann example of the former, from what I can remember only Hornby thought they were a good idea..

 

Jon

[andyman7]

I find the justification for putting the heavy tanks chassis specification down (but conveniently ignoring the price rise on a lower spec) but citing the success of Tornado (which does have brass bearings and a flywheel) to be rather missing the point.

 

You put the prices up year on year, in line with inflation and other factors. Fair enough. You significantly lower the specification of a new "main range" - not railroad - model and keep the price equivalent to other models within the same range with much higher specifications.

 

Just six months separate the releases of the Hornby O1 and GWR heavy tanks. Sorry Mr Kohler, I'll defend Hornby on a lot of things but not on reducing detail and basic specifications and effectively raising prices then blaming a discerning British public for reacting badly to it.

 

Bachmann doesn't get the guff Hornby does because they get the modern modeller. That's why all new models have brass bearings, due cast components with separately fitted detail and to reasonable price points. Yes they've had a price rise recently but it's still a dozen times and more, more reasonable paying £150 for a Bachmann A1than £140 for a Hornby heavy tank.

Er, I think Simon Kohler's blog, far from justifying the decision, actually says that in that case they got it wrong... 

[trisonic]

I’m still trying to work out why the British are more “Hands on Modellers” and quite what this means?

 

Best, Pete.

[pheaton]

i think i know what it means....im waiting to see how he is going to explain it

[Matabiau]

It's all very well Simon Kohler eating humble pie on Hornby's behalf but are Hornby themselves going to learn anything about communicating with their customer? Hornby point to Bachmann's press conference regarding a 20% price hike as an example of good PR and we all know about Dave Jone's and others' interaction with the modeling community but are Hornby going to learn anything from this? I for one hope so as they could have avoided some of their problems (supply chain aside) and I want to see Hornby back to form and producing models as much as anyone else, but given past form I unfortunately can't see that happening soon. Here's hoping I am proven wrong.