British Modular System - the initial ideas and debates

[Chrisr40]

Evening all

 

I know its probably of little use as I cannot remember the name of the club but for the last 2 years at the Erith show and just recently at the Bluebell Model Railway day there has been an N gauge society or club that have this approach. From memory they have stipulated on and off points on their boards and use a small section of track to bridge the gap to each others boards when they join them up. Apart from that anything goes on the remainder of the board which in some cases had fairly complicated and detailed scenery / additional track and points.

If anyone has a show guide or can access the Erith show web site you might find these chaps... without wanting to sound like the start of the A-Team ( he says realising he has completely lost anyone under the age of 35

 

Best Regards

 

Chris

 

EDIT - I think it may be the East Surrey N gauge society

Edited July 6, 2014 by Chrisr40

[peter220950]

....................................

I suppose like most things in life, if there is enough of an interest from a team of like minded and forward thinking people, it'll happen...

 

People are unlikely to ever be in 100% agreement, the important thing is to get something started, warts and all, which won't necessarily suit everyone but it provides a starting point.

 

With the arguments likely with creating a 'new' standard it would seem best to use something which already exists . I suspect a lot of people would be happy to build a module if they knew it could form part of a gathering like this (even if they normally model in other scales), and with laser cut standard board ends it's now easier than ever to get consistency.

 

Perhaps it needs a bit of a push to get the impetus,.......................is the 2015 Challenge set out yet?????????

[298]

I'd be quite interested in "having a go" at something.

 

Maybe for "simplicity" something like Tim Horn's basic baseboards (3ft x 1ft) could be utilised as the standard module size? http://www.timhorn.co.uk/baseboards/

I like the idea, but you don't have to be tied into previous standards that all used identical board sizes, as long as a module is built to a Standard Length Unit (1 foot), a section can be any length. Even then, having boards so tightly engineered would only be necessary to create a loop or to ease fitting a plan onto a grid.

[cromptonnut]

 just recently at the Bluebell Model Railway day there has been an N gauge society or club that have this approach. From memory they have stipulated on and off points on their boards and use a small section of track to bridge the gap to each others boards when they join them up. Apart from that anything goes on the remainder of the board which in some cases had fairly complicated and detailed scenery / additional track and points.

 

EDIT - I think it may be the East Surrey N gauge society

 

The West Sussex area group of the NGS also have a modular standard - http://www.wsng.co.uk/ but ESNG certainly had their one at their show in Redhill earlier in the year.

[cromptonnut]

I like the idea, but you don't have to be tied into previous standards that all used identical board sizes, as long as a module is built to a Standard Length Unit (1 foot), a section can be any length. Even then, having boards so tightly engineered would only be necessary to create a loop or to ease fitting a plan onto a grid.

 

Once the standards are agreed, I'll build something   Just hope there's a meet up somewhere in the south east although there may of course be enough interest within our RMWeb area group (SECAG) to build something of our own which we could then all bring up to somewhere else once a year for a mega-meet

[298]

People are unlikely to ever be in 100% agreement, the important thing is to get something started, warts and all, which won't necessarily suit everyone but it provides a starting point.

 

With the arguments likely with creating a 'new' standard it would seem best to use something which already exists . I suspect a lot of people would be happy to build a module if they knew it could form part of a gathering like this (even if they normally model in other scales), and with laser cut standard board ends it's now easier than ever to get consistency.

 

Perhaps it needs a bit of a push to get the impetus,.......................is the 2015 Challenge set out yet?????????

But that's the problem- there isn't a 4mm standard. There are a number of other HO ones but this one is relatively new, correcting what were percieved as difficulties such as the baseboard width and wiring for throttle buses.

[jcm@gwr]

I agree that we shouldn't try to re-invent the wheel.

 

What's wrong with the H0 standards? The track is

the same (gauge-wise), anything else is irrelevant!

 

The important things are:-

standard length (or multiples of)

compatibility of ends, for joining

ability to align/adjust height of boards 

consistence of track centre from edge.

 

Also,

common method of track jointing

       "           "        "  electrical connections

 

The width/depth of the board are not as

important, it's as much down to the builder

and his ability to build/store/transport them.

 

I don't think back-scenes are necc., as the

module could be viewed/operated from

either side. By all means have them for

home use, but make them removable. 

 

Just my thoughts on the idea, BTW.

 

If we can decide and agree on a set of

standards, then I'm in! (preferably an

existing set, as then we can join up

with other groups, occasionally)

 

Jeff

[peter220950]

But that's the problem- there isn't a 4mm standard.

 

I think I said 'use something else that exists', I didn't say 4mm, unless you are proposing a different gauge to 16.5mm?

 

There are several cited examples of 'standards' already quoted in this thread, if there's to be a 'new standard' to be invented I will clear off and catch up with the thread at page 500 when it will still probably be being debated. It would be far better to pick up Freemo or similar and run with it to at least get something built, it seems to work perfectly well for HO.

 

I would rather be at a gathering similar to the one at the head of this thread next year than reading a long debate that's gone nowhere, any modeller worth his (or her) salt will work with the tools available, it just needs a decision before the enthusiasm runs out.

 

The problem is not likely to be agreeing the standard, it's agreeing who makes the decision, perhaps reps from all of the main modelling magazines? - that way there is likely to be a degree of universal acceptance in the model press.

[PaulRhB]

First off we used 45" track height

 

Rather than get tied up on dictating standard modules, there really is no need. Ian just built adaptor boards to convert his existing layout to meet the freemo standard. I built a layout then made a freemo board to connect the U shaped industrial park into the layout.

The standard end width just helps the layout flow better and allows them to join in any order easier that trying to join a 4ft wide board to a 18 inch wide corner followed by another wide board

We had a mix of double and single track so that's not an issue.

DCC is easier to operate across than a DC block setup but it does require someone with the main control setup and enough panels and throttles to lend to everyone. As we had wifi several of us used smartphones and tablets for wire free walk around.

Think about some of the layout that already exist that could be used with just adding a short adaptor board.

My own Lulworth castle can cover from 1960's to present day with semaphores or pop them out and drop in colour lights using the same hole as the Dapol semaphores. I'm also having different buildings to move it north to run Scottish 80's.

It doesn't have to match exactly as the focus is operation, this weekend our branchline had Californian, Midwest and Florida in it

While it makes transitioning to the rugged Welsh Coast difficult scenically maybe the answer is to accept a compromise in something that fits in to the standard?

The standard we used this weekend says 18inch single track or 20 for double with track raised on a 3mm (1/8th inch) trackbed with the board flat at the ends and green using WS burnt turf so you blend your scenery to that.

You could specify a bridge to disguise the joins but it would hide a lot of the long views.

On era you just need enough stock to run it, you could even run two different eras in a day with changeover at lunch. We ran from 12-9pm Saturday and 9-3ish today and I'm nowhere near as tired as doing a show.

 

Start looking at your existing layout to see if it could add an adaptor first then consider if you could build a corner board to add on or a long straight run to store easily.

[roundhouse]

Actually Paul I hadn't built converter boards. I had widened and extended boards (OK I did make sure the board ends were flat and green scenery to roughly match the standards) but they are wider than the modular standard so as to use legs from another layout. I even built screw on leg extenders to get the boards the modular standard height. I will build a couple of 6 inch long boards to get the boards to the correct width and track centre where the connect connection to another module.

 

I had modified the wiring so that the layout could be connected electrically. The main layout boards are intended to be a stand alone exhibtion layout but also suitable for modular meets.

 

 

 

Ian

Edited July 6, 2014 by roundhouse

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Excellent idea!

 

Might be worth holding a poll for certain measurements, ie board edge to track centre.

[PaulRhB]

This is the plan Martyn created with 9 main locations and a couple of odd sidings too then several scenes you pass through. We really needed another big yard but as uk trains are generally smaller you could work with several similar size stations, even a couple of big ones for mainline trains to run between, and a few industries. As Andy suggest one so think steelworks, Military base, oil depot, quarry or an interchange with water or narrow gauge as some possible alternatives to stations. Using the BR period is easier as there was a lot of wagon load traffic but even into recent times you can justify short trains and even mixed ones if you choose your subject carefully

 

 

[Glorious NSE]

We do know it can work with DC from our experience at Taunton (with all credit to those who came up with the original fiddle yard/power route circuits) so DCC is not necessarily essential although voltage drop could become a problem with really lengthy DC layouts.  

 

Control: this is going to be the most contentious "standard" - although DCC is seemingly the obvious choice, it still is not universal. By selecting the standard of DCC then a massive section of participants are automatically excluded.

 

Don't want to get hugely contentious here, but it may end up so.

 

With DC, can you run infinity cabs, with just two bus wires on a simple plain-track board?

 

Lets say you wired in 6 cabs, then every module has to have wiring for 6 cabs. 

What happens when it grows and you want to add a 7th cab? Does everyone have to rewire their modules?

Simplicity has a value, and DC is not simple when you apply it to a layout that can be theoretically infinite, and will never go together the same way twice.

 

I would also suggest that DCC does not "automatically exclude" people, people may make a choice that they don't want to join in, but nobody is forcing them to make that choice - cost really isn't a big burden from that point of view don't forget, you don't need to buy an expensive DCC system to take part...

 

I'm going to butt out now - i'm happy to help if anyone has any questions about what we've done/how we've done it/and why we've done it that way - I have a feeling there's some other like minded folk I've a contact with, and i'll point them in this direction also...

 

Good luck guys!

[PaulRhB]

I went to the meet with no DCC locos, (bought one while I was there but that wasn't planned), just stock as others had said they'd bring enough locos. My section is wired for DC or DCC so it doesn't have to exclude anyone and if you do want to take a loco you can dcc it for a relatively small amount. You don't have to do sound either

[Andy Reichert]

I agree that we shouldn't try to re-invent the wheel.

 

What's wrong with the H0 standards? The track is

the same (gauge-wise), anything else is irrelevant!

 

The important things are:-

standard length (or multiples of)

compatibility of ends, for joining

ability to align/adjust height of boards 

consistence of track centre from edge.

 

Also,

common method of track jointing

       "           "        "  electrical connections

 

The width/depth of the board are not as

important, it's as much down to the builder

and his ability to build/store/transport them.

 

I don't think back-scenes are necc., as the

module could be viewed/operated from

either side. By all means have them for

home use, but make them removable. 

 

Just my thoughts on the idea, BTW.

 

If we can decide and agree on a set of

standards, then I'm in! (preferably an

existing set, as then we can join up

with other groups, occasionally)

 

Jeff

 

Free-Mo doesn't require standard lengths AFAIR. It's not intended for building ovals per se.

 

Andy

[Dave Bush]

Have a look at the FREMO website, though most is in German, some is in English. There are standards for all gauges from N to G scale and the 00 group held there first modular meeting just recently. A few UK modellers have become members of FREMO and we hope to have our own modular meeting maybe next year.

[Trebor]

Have a look here http://www.free-mo.org/standard

 

Suggest that these might be amended to suit UK practice.

 

I might even have a crack at some boards if it moves forward, might even be able to source space for an annual meet in a converted goods shed, now used for other events (subject to funding)

 

onwards with the discussions....

Edited July 7, 2014 by Trebor

[PaulRhB]

The RS tower groups standard modifies that so the rail goes right up to the end and only requires 3 inches of straight which works fine.

http://rstowerfreemo.wordpress.com/module-info/module-specifications/

 

My only concern with the other freemo std removable 2 inch length rails is accidentally ripping up track as you build delaying or crippling a module. 50 inches is getting very tall for some too. The comments on wood are valid but thanks to the adjustable feet even my couple of wonky B&Q 2x1 legs caused no problems. The one thing I would suggest though is bracing legs or as many of the RS modules used 2x2 legs in deep sockets.

Edited July 7, 2014 by PaulRhB

[Steve-e]

I'd be quite interested in "having a go" at something.

 

Maybe for "simplicity" something like Tim Horn's basic baseboards (3ft x 1ft) could be utilised as the standard module size? http://www.timhorn.co.uk/baseboards/

I would also be interested in having a go and like the idea of some of the baseboard manufacturers been involved perhaps once standards have been agreed then they could also make a kit with baseboard,legs,backboard etc included. BRM magazine could also get involved to produce a paper template overlay so you know that your track will match up as i feel these would be the areas that will put people off if they think that they make a board only for it not to match up it may be a turn off.

 

Regards

 

Steve

[PaulRhB]

Here's the Fremo standards for OO - 2m or 6ft 8in radius seems a bit too much as a minimum for me. We were using 3ft / 900mmon mainlines and 2ft / 600mm on sidings.

http://www.fremo-net.eu/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&g=0&t=1404802486&hash=3b2af5ab4569df2a736f2ef0c966c9f0ebde8c2d&file=fileadmin/redakteure/felix.moering/Norm_UK_EN.pdf

 

And the full range

http://www.fremo-net.eu/00fremo.html?&L=6

[Neil]

So far it seems as though much of the debate has been about the practicalities (standards) of a British modular system. Whilst normally being of a 'just get on and do it' frame of mind, I wonder if the success of the euro and yank versions isn't founded on robust organisation that the participants buy into with enthusiasm.

 

Whatever standards are set it should be possible to make a module of whatever takes your fancy, the important thing being that sufficient numbers adopt the standard.

[Dave Bush]

The FREMO 00 group had their first meeting at Rendsburg earlier this year. They had 45 metres of modules and photos from the event can be viewed here: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/91875255@N05/sets/72157644505284902/

[FelixM]

Have a look at the FREMO website, though most is in German, some is in English. There are standards for all gauges from N to G scale and the 00 group held there first modular meeting just recently. A few UK modellers have become members of FREMO and we hope to have our own modular meeting maybe next year.

 

Thanks Dave. Me and a few modelling colleagues from Berlin have introduced 00 gauge to the Fremo in 2013. Rendsburg as you quotet in your last post was actually our second meeting, presenting ourselves to the Fremo community. The idea of British modelling is spreading out since, lots of modellers who "have enough" of Deutsche Reichsbahn modelling come to me and ask if they could build some modules for us to enjoy e.g. a shunting plank which can be included on meetings.

 

I have made the timetable for the first and second meeting of our group. Furthermore I have planned the layouts too. I also maintain the official pages of 00Fremo: http://www.fremo-net.eu/00fremo.html?&L=6

There will be another small meeting this year in the Berlin area.

 

We are making progress in all aspects of the modelling. On the last meeting in Rendsburg we had a timetabled Parcels Scammell Scarab on the layout. We have plans for introducing block working to our stations. We currently draw plans to create a slotting feature of signals so it could be influenced by somewhere else. There are a lot more projects which I can't list here for time and space reasons.

 

One of the big advantages is that You can do everything in Fremo – personally I am a good rolling stock collector but a bad layout builder. But that doesn't matter. Inside the Fremo there are experts for everything, it just has to happen that the right people meet. That is society.

 

Last but not least we are a young group. Most of us are between 30 and 39 years old with me being 24.

 

If you would like to contact me and other similar "modular addictives" there is a FremoUK yahoo group. As I have said earlier on that list if a meeting is to come in the UK then I offer my help as much as I can and plan to come along too.

 

To give you an impression here is a shunting plank which started off as a 75cm x 25 cm homebased shunting plank which got a few extensions and is now a true module. May I introduce You to Plankwell:

IMG_3258 von – FelixM – auf Flickr

 

Kind regards

Felix

 

By the way, in two weeks there will be the annual Great-BritN meeting in northern Bavaria. N gauge this time.

Edited July 7, 2014 by FelixM

[cromptonnut]

Here's an idea for legs/height... Ikea.

 

I've used the ADILS legs on my N gauge layout and although perhaps they are low-ish, they do work very well and are cheap.  Basically four screws to hold the screw-in leg part, then the removeable leg itself screws in to that.

 

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/70217973/

 

700mm high, a bit of adjustability, plus whatever frame depth is decided on, helps define the 'track bed level.  At £10 for four legs per board that's pretty good value. 

[McRuss]

Hello,

 

discussions regarding the FREMO 00 modules could be found there.

 

http://75355.homepagemodules.de/t2262f32-im-Fremo.html

 

The discussions are usually in german, but feel free to aks in english,

we will give you the answers to your question.

 

There is also the Great-britN modular group.

 

http://www.great-britn.de/

 

The Great-britN group will held a modular meeting at the first weekend in August.

 

http://www.great-britn.de/Treffenankuendigung2014

 

And the modular arrangement:

 

http://www.great-britn.de/doc/Treffen2014.pdf

 

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