Bachmann FFA/FGA early container flats

[hmrspaul]

Boxes seem to be an undernourished subject as far as models and research matter goes. It's very difficult to find period photos of them compared to other freight stock. Even PBs site is a little thin (no complaints  ) 

Too young! Very difficult to access Freightliner depots, Netto Rail has learnt all they know about turning the railways into no go areas from Freightliner

 

We are helping Bachmann all we can; there are sources of info on early containers which are not so obvious. And I think it is reasonable to say that although BR was at the forefront of the international development of the container they found it difficult to predict where it would go. So the NCB coal container didn't go anywhere for a generation; liquids and even more so dry powder were foreseen as a development area heavily canvassed in early publicity and that was very very slow to develop, and importantly  it was seen as an internal freight carrier (this partially failed, many small depots opened and closed) and were simply overwhelmed by the maritime developments. Don't overlook that an absolute fortune had been spent on 'RCH' standard containers and conflats towards the end of the 1950s [and a surprising number of experiments] and there was resistence to accepting that it was a Dodo only 6 years later, so the change  was resisted by a lot of the BR operators [i read a Yahoo site where professional railwaymen have been vitriolic about this change from the 4ton container!].

 

Please don't overlook that Bachmann are going to produce an early Freightliner crane which looked excellent at Barwell on Monday - 44-0009. I must admit I  have been disappointed by comments about the introduction of these models. Without looking up all the details, they were THE container carrier for a quarter of a century, and lasted until close to, if not beyond, the turn of the century. They span the steam - diesel transition which is so popular at the moment. Ok, like the MGRs they were air braked so didn't have steam power, but they ran alongside them for 3 or so years. Also, I suspect many of you are thinking too much of the rather monotonous container scene of the present day with some very large companies dominating the scene. It wasn't like that; there were hundreds of companies - the likes of Geests and Sainsbury didn't hire someone elses, they used their own. A feature of the speculative investment market was to buy ownership of a container. OK, I'll admit I wasn't that keen on containers but the possibilities are nearly endless!  Many small terminals existed and that is what the Bachmann cranes are aimed at reproducing .

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

Singles (double ended FGAs) were used in Scotland, I want to say there was either 2 or 5 of them but it's been a while since I've read up on the fleet. LTSV database had a good bio in the FFA/FGA sets which covered use and make up.

There were three FJA http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brwhiskycontainerfbbfja/e2109e3de  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e251529c1

 

Yes. A lot of play value potential.

 

Paul

[bubbles2]

Here's an interesting little Freightliner depot that would fit a medium sized layout and probably only required one set of 5 wagons.

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/freightlinerdepot/h1C1F048E#h1c1f048e

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffsimages/8176804361/in/photolist-95nPNz-9jyxZ3-gwZ697-hBV9Au-cynodN-dsyg4x-bgcLHk-8W93s9-k5vHs9-

 

Also found a picture a few days ago of a pair of class 50s double heading a single set of 5 wagons west though Dawlish Warren with most of the containers towards the rear of the train, probably an MOD load to Plymouth Devonport or Ernesettle.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Freightliner terminals generally had a pair of cranes to load/unload the wagons. Here we see the pair of Morris-made cranes at Nottingham parked-up together, in the mid 1980s.

[Fat Controller]

Thanks Brian that's useful gen as always.

 

Was the paper in closed containers or some other weatherproof containment?

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

 

I think they were sheeted rolls; it was from St Andrew's Board Mill and destined for cigarette packets, IIRC. For a while, the Freightliner wagons were combined with an ABN (precursor of Speedlink) working; the Speedlink working had vans of tobacco, possibly the last traffic to be loaded at the old Temple Meads goods depot.

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks Brian

 

IIRC there was a 4S87 Par - Scotland (? Glasgow or Edinburgh) - not in my 71-72 wtt but 4S88 Cardiff - Edinburgh is - did 4S87 pick up the Bristol traffic on the way through?

 

They used to come through Abbotswood northbound fairly close together in the evening

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[SRman]

I was looking through one of the Ian Robert Hendry freight wagon books and there is a nice shot from the early '70s, pre-TOPS, of a BR blue class 85 hauling a train of these wagons with mostly Freightliners Limited containers in the grey with red band livery, a couple with the earlier BR Freightliner grey/red band livery (one even still with the BR arrow on it), and a few 30' red Containerway containers.

Edited to correct the author's name! Book title is British Railway Goods Wagons In Colour: For the Modeller and Historian (Vol 1)

Edited July 23, 2014 by SRman

[Downendian]

This is seriously good news - preorder placed to support these models.

I've always wanted to model the Danygraig-Stratford service, 4E70 which was always a service we waited for in the mid 1970s (mid evening) as it was often assisted by a 37 up the haul from the Severn tunnel. Indeed two of my Westerns have this reporting code added already. I'd looked at purchasing models of the flats (I can't recall off the top of my head who produces them) or even reworking old Hornby models, but the prices these were commanding were prohibitive.

The return working was mid-morning, but I also recall the Glasgow service to which Phil refers, which passed through Bristol Parkway heading North. I will be looking at this thread and researching exactly what containers were used on these services circa 1974/5.

Neil

[Downendian]

Thanks Brian

 

IIRC there was a 4S87 Par - Scotland (? Glasgow or Edinburgh) - not in my 71-72 wtt but 4S88 Cardiff - Edinburgh is - did 4S87 pick up the Bristol traffic on the way through?

 

They used to come through Abbotswood northbound fairly close together in the evening

 

Cheers

 

Phil

I'll check my Bristol mid 1970s WTT Phil - we have a lot in common many of the services I'm looking to model passed through both Bristol and Abbotswood - we need to compare notes!

Neil

[byron]

As a prototype for everything exists, these fine wagons can even be steam hauled. Way back in the days when there was still steam on the WCML, a Scotland bound freightliner failed at Nuneaton. First Control rule has always been get it off yer patch (in my case as Main Line South section Controller in Stoke Control, this was Norton Bridge - but I play fair, so Crewe it was. As the only loco available was a 9F on an engineers trip, it was used to remove the 47. This is where the observant amonst you will say "just a minute, the 9F was vac braked, and the train air braked". So the PW trains brake van was attached rear, the 9F coupled up, train lights "dropped" to a class 9 and off we go. 70 late away from Nuneaton. No available air braked loco at Crewe (often wondered why there was a shed there) so the Nuneaton men were sweet talked to work on with the booked driver as route knowledge pilot. The 9F worked to Carlisle (far enough off the patch) where it arrived on time.

It may have been that they poor guard had a rougher ride than in the back cab of a warm diesel, but it seems the rest of the crew enjoyed the trip (and the overtime for the Nuneaton men). The electification may have been delayed by a bit, but that is what Sundays were for.

 

Mike

[dagrizz]

As a prototype for everything exists, these fine wagons can even be steam hauled. Way back in the days when there was still steam on the WCML, a Scotland bound freightliner failed at Nuneaton. First Control rule has always been get it off yer patch (in my case as Main Line South section Controller in Stoke Control, this was Norton Bridge - but I play fair, so Crewe it was. As the only loco available was a 9F on an engineers trip, it was used to remove the 47. This is where the observant amonst you will say "just a minute, the 9F was vac braked, and the train air braked". So the PW trains brake van was attached rear, the 9F coupled up, train lights "dropped" to a class 9 and off we go. 70 late away from Nuneaton. No available air braked loco at Crewe (often wondered why there was a shed there) so the Nuneaton men were sweet talked to work on with the booked driver as route knowledge pilot. The 9F worked to Carlisle (far enough off the patch) where it arrived on time.

It may have been that they poor guard had a rougher ride than in the back cab of a warm diesel, but it seems the rest of the crew enjoyed the trip (and the overtime for the Nuneaton men). The electification may have been delayed by a bit, but that is what Sundays were for.

 

Mike

 

 

Thanks for this, I now have an excuse for buying some and running them behind anything.

 

Graham

['CHARD]

As a prototype for everything exists, these fine wagons can even be steam hauled. Way back in the days when there was still steam on the WCML, a Scotland bound freightliner failed at Nuneaton. First Control rule has always been get it off yer patch (in my case as Main Line South section Controller in Stoke Control, this was Norton Bridge - but I play fair, so Crewe it was. As the only loco available was a 9F on an engineers trip, it was used to remove the 47. This is where the observant amonst you will say "just a minute, the 9F was vac braked, and the train air braked". So the PW trains brake van was attached rear, the 9F coupled up, train lights "dropped" to a class 9 and off we go. 70 late away from Nuneaton. No available air braked loco at Crewe (often wondered why there was a shed there) so the Nuneaton men were sweet talked to work on with the booked driver as route knowledge pilot. The 9F worked to Carlisle (far enough off the patch) where it arrived on time.

It may have been that they poor guard had a rougher ride than in the back cab of a warm diesel, but it seems the rest of the crew enjoyed the trip (and the overtime for the Nuneaton men). The electification may have been delayed by a bit, but that is what Sundays were for.

 

Mike

 

Most awesome Transition era/ DeathSteam anecdote I think it will be possible to enjoy this year!

 

Fantastic drama and so evocative; I can't get enough latter-day 9F Carlisle action.  Thanks for sharing.  Brilliant.

[hmrspaul]

As a prototype for everything exists, these fine wagons can even be steam hauled. Way back in the days when there was still steam on the WCML, a Scotland bound freightliner failed at Nuneaton. First Control rule has always been get it off yer patch (in my case as Main Line South section Controller in Stoke Control, this was Norton Bridge - but I play fair, so Crewe it was. As the only loco available was a 9F on an engineers trip, it was used to remove the 47. This is where the observant amonst you will say "just a minute, the 9F was vac braked, and the train air braked". So the PW trains brake van was attached rear, the 9F coupled up, train lights "dropped" to a class 9 and off we go. 70 late away from Nuneaton. No available air braked loco at Crewe (often wondered why there was a shed there) so the Nuneaton men were sweet talked to work on with the booked driver as route knowledge pilot. The 9F worked to Carlisle (far enough off the patch) where it arrived on time.

It may have been that they poor guard had a rougher ride than in the back cab of a warm diesel, but it seems the rest of the crew enjoyed the trip (and the overtime for the Nuneaton men). The electification may have been delayed by a bit, but that is what Sundays were for.

 

Mike

Mike

 

Nice story, but did you have to provide a brake van? These trains had to have some way of carrying the guard. There are two photos of early trains in

Collins, Michael J (1991) Freightliner (Life & Times series) pub Foulis-OPC 128 pages, ISBN 0-88093-455-1 

 

with conventional brake vans - both air brake/pipe conversions. A WR one with a SR van on the back and 47 hauled train on the WCML with a 'Stanier' LMS van on the back. These appear to be before the attempts to use a freightliner caboose which were replaced by coaching stock.

 

Changing the subject, I think someone asked whether the Maritime and internal services were kept separate. My very vague memory is that is correct, although when this started I don't know. Collins mentions "late 1960s" as when they split into 3 sectors - Irish and Home Trade; Deep Sea; European. The European included using RoRO ferries with trains to Paris.

 

Paul

 

 

Edited July 24, 2014 by hmrspaul

[Phil Bullock]

So the PW trains brake van was attached rear,

Mike

 

Looks like they had that covered Paul - but would have been a good excuse to use that Freightliner container caboose....

 

Phil

[Phil Bullock]

I'll check my Bristol mid 1970s WTT Phil - we have a lot in common many of the services I'm looking to model passed through both Bristol and Abbotswood - we need to compare notes!

Neil

 

Excellent plan Neil - I feel a new thread starting

 

Phil

[arran]

HI All

 

A rather crap pic I took in Dundee may moons ago.

 

Shows two typed of 20ft container and one in Argos branding.,

 

Regards Arran

Edited July 25, 2014 by arran

[Satan's Goldfish]

Muchos like Arran, i feel there may be an Argos container in my future...

[eastwestdivide]

Some of the buffer fitted wagons were vacuum piped as FGB's but no idea as to numbers.

 

ISTR observing some in the 60146x / 60148x range.

 

(and I'm not confusing these with 601999).

Hello SM46 - you prompted me to dig out some old notes, and I've also got sightings (from the early 80s) of FGB, i.e. vac-piped outers, running from 601062-91, some of which later converted back to FGA. Unfortunately, that's all the info I can find - no locations or traffic info.

There's enough sightings in that series to suggest we saw them a fair bit, so I might try and dig out some trip notes from Barking or Stratford as likely locations... don't hold your breath though.

[byron]

Mike

 

Nice story, but did you have to provide a brake van? These trains had to have some way of carrying the guard. There are two photos of early trains in

Collins, Michael J (1991) Freightliner (Life & Times series) pub Foulis-OPC 128 pages, ISBN 0-88093-455-1 

 

with conventional brake vans - both air brake/pipe conversions. A WR one with a SR van on the back and 47 hauled train on the WCML with a 'Stanier' LMS van on the back. These appear to be before the attempts to use a freightliner caboose which were replaced by coaching stock.

 

Changing the subject, I think someone asked whether the Maritime and internal services were kept separate. My very vague memory is that is correct, although when this started I don't know. Collins mentions "late 1960s" as when they split into 3 sectors - Irish and Home Trade; Deep Sea; European. The European included using RoRO ferries with trains to Paris.

 

Paul

A Brakevan was required - the train went forward class9 (unfitted)!

 

Mike

[Fat Controller]

There were three FJA http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brwhiskycontainerfbbfja/e2109e3de  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e251529c1

 

Yes. A lot of play value potential.

 

Paul

Weren't there some specifically modified for the Far North service, with through vacuum and steam pipes?

[Southernman46]

"Hello SM46 - you prompted me to dig out some old notes, and I've also got sightings (from the early 80s) of FGB, i.e. vac-piped outers, running from 601062-91, some of which later converted back to FGA. Unfortunately, that's all the info I can find - no locations or traffic info.

There's enough sightings in that series to suggest we saw them a fair bit, so I might try and dig out some trip notes from Barking or Stratford as likely locations... don't hold your breath though."



One of our learned wagon guru's must be able to provide some clue on this given the additional info EWD has given..?

 

Almost certainly Stratford and / or Barking as we haunted them a lot back then.............

Edited July 25, 2014 by Southernman46

[hmrspaul]

A Brakevan was required - the train went forward class9 (unfitted)!

 

Mike

Mike

 

Yes, sorry I was overlooking that if it was working with a caboose then perhaps it would need a brake van. Or are you discussing the later period once a brake van wasn't required? I don't know when that started. There is a wealth of information in the Collins book, but it is not always easy to find.

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

Mike

 

Yes, sorry I was overlooking that if it was working with a caboose then perhaps it would need a brake van. Or are you discussing the later period once a brake van wasn't required? I don't know when that started. There is a wealth of information in the Collins book, but it is not always easy to find.

 

Paul

1968, Paul, but with exceptions; trains with single-cabbed locos, for example.

[hmrspaul]

Weren't there some specifically modified for the Far North service, with through vacuum and steam pipes?

Yes

 

There were three FJA http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brwhiskycontainerfbbfja/e2109e3de  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e251529c1

 

Yes. A lot of play value potential.

 

Paul

Silsbury in the Collins book only shows the two of them, but Collins himself mentions four being used in mixed trains in Scotland in 1985. I'm confused!

 

He also mentions - without referring to what stock was used, so I'll assume ordinary sets with through vacuum pipe, another mixed train. In 1969-70 a Cardiff to Fishguard for Irish traffic, three days a week at the rear of the 08.00 Paddington to Fishguard boat train.

 

After the brief use in the north of Scotland they seem to have become available for other short flows - which could include a mixed train on your railway.

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

Yes

 

Silsbury in the Collins book only shows the two of them, but Collins himself mentions four being used in mixed trains in Scotland in 1985. I'm confused!

 

He also mentions - without referring to what stock was used, so I'll assume ordinary sets with through vacuum pipe, another mixed train. In 1969-70 a Cardiff to Fishguard for Irish traffic, three days a week at the rear of the 08.00 Paddington to Fishguard boat train.

 

After the brief use in the north of Scotland they seem to have become available for other short flows - which could include a mixed train on your railway.

 

Paul

The later conversions, for the Far North traffic were FJB. I believe the braking arrangements were air for the flats, and vacuum for the coaches, with some sort of modification for the loco brake valves. There was some sort of feature on it in Modern Railways, with mention of 'innovative thinking'

I'm fairly certain the Fishguard trains used air-braked passenger stock; the wagons were attached to the tail, and I suspect  HMRI would have had something to say about 400t of unfitted metal on the back of an express passenger train.

I remember watching these trains from my school, which afforded excellent views (though too distant to read numbers,,) of the main line west of Llanelli.