coachmann Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Wide angle lens will not not exaggerate the bow. In reply to an earlier question, I see no reasons why coaches designed for train sets would not run on code 100 rails. Speaking as a railway modeller of the old school, I take what is produced for the masses and adapt it according to my needs. If that means fitting new bogies, so be it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochinvar Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Back to ride height. I've today given my CK the full 30 thou treatment,and it now lines up very much better with a Hornby BTK at buffer,solebar and roofline levels. Ditto with a Bachmann Mk1. The downside,of course,is that there is now more wheel exposed above the bogie than I would like,but that can be masked. While we're indebted to Coachmann for suggesting this simple fix,it really ought not to have been necessary. Might Bachmann correct this weakness in due course,I wonder.....perhaps before the inevitable release in BR maroon? DR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) Hi all, I finally got round to doing what I said I would do namely, trial fitting modern Hornby Stanier bogies on the Bachmann portholes. Okay it did involve removing the clips on the bogie and drilling out to fit the boss on the coach underside, a new fixing screw with a smaller diameter head secured the bogies. Once all that was done a quick height check.... Rail top to coach roof should be 12'41/2'' according to the LMS coach bible by Essery and Jenkinson. That works out to 49.5mm and guess what... that's exactly what this exercise has produced, exactly, spot on. Okay coaches could sit lower due to numbers of passengers, wear on wheels and springs but hey I'm happy it's right on spec. I was fortunate I had picked up a cheap, damaged but complete Hornby Stanier which was going to be chopped up for something else and it also had welded bogies fitted, what luck. However pictures in the book also show riveted bogies on earlier portholes of the same diagram as well as different roof vents so a bit of variation is possible. I already know these Hornby bogies run very well even when converted to the broader gauges (one of the best RTR bogies out there) and the only hard work involves gently squeezing the stalk that the brakeshoe is on to move them out to gauge, time consuming but easily done. So I now have the basic coach I'm happy with, ready for the detailing. All I'm waiting on is some nice LMS coach buffers from that guy in Scotland... Oh that's me then.... Pictures and measurements taken, just to find the time. Was it yourself Larry that mentioned when the fire extinquisher pods were fitted or someone else, 60s if I remember correctly.... I'll post a picture for comparison tonight sometime. Dave Franks. Edited July 19, 2014 by davefrk 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2014 I was told at my local shop today, that the 60ft First Brakes were despatched from Bachmann yesterday and are expected in shops from next Monday. Seems the 57ft Second Brakes are coming later. I collected my BFK from Alton yesterday (Friday) so they are definitely about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) I collected my BFK from Alton yesterday (Friday) so they are definitely about. Wished I'd known.....I would have asked for one to be put in large box of track, cork and things for the next layout that came from Alton yesterday. Edited July 19, 2014 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2014 Wished I'd known.....I would have asked for one to be put in large box of track, cork and things for the next layout that came from Alton yesterday. I didn't know in advance - only when it was added to my other four (one of each vehicle type) sitting on the counter, I got the impression that they had arrived in the morning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Hi all, as promised here's some pics of the re-bogied Bachmann Porthole. Hornby bogie on Bachmann CK on left incase you're wondering, Coach is now correct in height (49.5mm) compared to the 'as bought' on right. The bogies just don't compare do they, let alone the daft design. Compared to a Hornby Stanier the Bachmann coach matches well for the height and not too bad for the buffers which are set at the bottom edge of the beam. (I'll sort that when I do the buffers). The colour of this Hornby BTK coach is a good match too, one of the first releases I think. A TK I recently bought is a much richer cream which looks garish to my eyes. Unfortunately it's lying up at the club which we can't get near for the Commonwealth Games road closures.... I'm much happier with the CK now, anyone got any spare Hornby bogies they don't want, I only need four pairs. Dave. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 19, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 19, 2014 All I'm waiting on is some nice LMS coach buffers from that guy in Scotland... Don't hold your breath Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Hornby's bogies are are let down by overscale axleboxes and overdeep horn guides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Okay Larry, you may think that but in my opinion the bogie frame, axleboxes and springs are one hell of a lot better than the Bachmann effort. Overall, after studying photos in the LMS coach book one can see that later Period 111 LMS coaches have physically bigger axleboxes and I feel the Hornby bogie is a much better represention and suits the Bachmann coach well. Just my opinion. All the best, Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faulcon1 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 In reply to an earlier question, I see no reasons why coaches designed for train sets would not run on code 100 rails. I live on the other side of this planet, Australia, and Peco code 75 is hard to get hold off not to mention being much more expensive. Peco code 100 is freely available here by the box load. I know of many Australian modellers who ask why would you bother buying code 75 for what is only a 25mm difference in rail height. Buy code 100 and you can run anything on it from scale to coarse. I once bought a box of Peco code 100 from Hattons. It had to be delivered by a private courier due to being too big for the postal services. All up it cost me $250.00 ouch!!!. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 20, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2014 In reply to an earlier question, I see no reasons why coaches designed for train sets would not run on code 100 rails. I live on the other side of this planet, Australia, and Peco code 75 is hard to get hold off not to mention being much more expensive. Peco code 100 is freely available here by the box load. I know of many Australian modellers who ask why would you bother buying code 75 for what is only a 25mm difference in rail height. Buy code 100 and you can run anything on it from scale to coarse. I once bought a box of Peco code 100 from Hattons. It had to be delivered by a private courier due to being too big for the postal services. All up it cost me $250.00 ouch!!!. Pedants hat on. Code 100 is 25 thou taller, therefore 0.5mm approx taller. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) The reason I mentioned Code 100 is I believe that RTR track is Code 100. Edited July 20, 2014 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad McCann Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 The Hornby bogie sure makes a difference. Now, can I find enough as spares, that's the question? I appear to have inadvertently sold all my maroons! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Judging by the conversation earlier between Larry and Dave, would it be fair to say that both Bachmann & Hornby have both got their bogies mixed up? Ie Hornsby's offerings are not quite right for the pre-porthole stock? Further to this, which of the suppliers of castings would a modeller go to for pre-porthole and porthole stock? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Judging by the conversation earlier between Larry and Dave, would it be fair to say that both Bachmann & Hornby have both got their bogies mixed up? Ie Hornsby's offerings are not quite right for the pre-porthole stock? Further to this, which of the suppliers of castings would a modeller go to for pre-porthole and porthole stock? The Hornby welded bogie is well detailed and exhibits the correct longer springs, round-bar tie bars with cross members. The riveted bogie has the shorter 'Midland-length' springs and correct flat-bar tie rods, BUT, it should not have the cross members (easily removed). In both cases the axleboxes are rather oversize but could be cut back carefully with a sharp knife. The Horn Plates are too deep and cannot be altered............ Compare the depth of these bogies with LMS bogies from MJT, Comet, 247 and Mousa Models. The old Bachmann LMS bogie dating from Mainline days has a rather deep channel frame and sloping face axleboxes in use from late Midland days to 1932. Its not a bad looking bogie for its age but it has not been in production for some time. Stanier introduced a vertical face slightly deeper axlebox cover plate on his Period III stock in 1933. Detail is shallow on the Bachmann Welded bogie (on the 'Porthole' stock) and bolsters are sat on the tiebar instead of being behind. It looks like a cheapo item produced for 'Railroad' range and yet it doesn't looks too bad either. It seems as if all Bachmanns effort went into producing very coach bodies. So the rest is up to modellers. Edited July 21, 2014 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Hi David, According to the Jenkinson/Essery book, Period 111 coaches came out under Stanier, the heavier looking axleboxes from about mid 30s and indeed experimentation with welded underframes and bogies started to appear before the war so you're okay with the Hornby riveted bogie under Hornby Staniers (a few later ones having welded bogies). Hornby does the welded version under, IIRC, the all 1st. There are pictures of portholes with rivetted bogies but most had the welded bogies also it seems that bogies were swapped over time so that could be the reason. Just for my own satisfaction I'm intending to visit my local railway and measure up the bogies on a couple of Staniers but studying the dozens of photos I still think the Hornby bogies look fine under the Staniers and Portholes. I'm sure Larry will agree that like most railway vehicles it can be a nightmare trying to pindown changes as some happened piecemeal and over a good period of time. All the best, Dave. Edited July 21, 2014 by davefrk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Oops, Larry got there a minute of two before me. Saying more or less the same, okay I hadn't noticed the lack of crossmembers on the riveted bogie, that's makes it a lot esier to remove and refit the plate for the brakes. Larry, I think if the axleboxes are oversize then they are still better than the even more undersize and flat Bachmann ones. We can agree to differ. I'll get some dimensions. Isn't the old Bachmann bogie on the current Period 1 coaches still available from Bachmann? I'll need to check what's on the revamped P1 coach I picked up recently to put Comet sides on. I agree Larry that Bachmann have concentrated on making a very nice coach then running out of money or expertise for the bogies. All the best, Dave. Edited July 21, 2014 by davefrk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I must read LMS Coaches again! My thanks to Larry and Dave. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The P1 bogies are rivetted but as has been noted, some Porthole coaches used secondhand components (from war damaged stock?). Are the old Airfix P3 bogies any use in this case Larry, or the 'new' Dapol kit bogies? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Dapol bogies ride low on the wheels and are not really convincing in this day and age. Edited July 22, 2014 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) The LMS D2168 'Porthole' Brake First arrived today in 1951-56 condition with the running number at the RH end. It looks impressive on the 60' chassis. The model illustrated is almost as delivered but has had the body raised on the bogies with 20thou spacers as before. Wheels were painted black and the first class seats blue. Gilding the lily, I have also painted in the 'gold' curtains. Care needs to be taken if doing this as we are painting inside a recess. Another super model that saved me some building..... The opportunity was taken to buy a Hattons 'bargain' Bachmann BR Mk.I corridor brake composite at the same time. Consistency is apparent in the matching blood & custard. The Mk.I was also fitted with a corridor connection at its inner end.... Edited July 22, 2014 by coachmann 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 That's a nice coach Larry. Just one problem........ I need a Brake compo..... LOL. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) That's a nice coach Larry. Just one problem........ I need a Brake compo..... LOL. Dave. Dave, I bought a BR Mk.I Brake compo and at £22.00 they're a snip. Been looking at Bachmann bogies while doing a few jobs. A shame the company didn't opt for the tried and tested design of moulding as used for the GWR Pressed Steel bogie.... Or even the BR Mk. I bogie pictured on the left beside the inferior open-end bogie off a 'Porthole'.... Seeing as the proprietary manufacturers are designing models for train sets and modellers, I just don't think the latest Bachmann LMS bogie will last the course even in light-fisted hands! The ones on my coach had splayed and the wheels were hanging out on arrival. The whole design is floppy and poor. Edited July 22, 2014 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted July 23, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2014 Structurally weak would be another way of describing the bogie design. I think the accountants have had a hand in designing them!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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