Bachmann NRM/Locomotionmodels.com - GNR Ivatt C1

[Willie Whizz]

None of this agonising would have been necessary at any point if they had only said, clearly and unambiguously at the outset:  "This product is, and will always remain, exclusive to the NRM".  Instead there were 'weasel words' used which could be, and were by some, interpreted as them - at the kindest - keeping their options open.  Which would be fair enough, and perfectly reasonable of them, if it was clear to us that was the case.  Or they could simply and honestly have said:  "This is a matter of future commercial judgement, and as such we're unwilling to tie our own hands".  But requests for clarity appear to have just been met with more 'fudge'.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Willie Whizz

[Andy Hayter]

But then such a statement would prohibit NRM from selling the moulds and the rights to use them at some (distant) stage in the future.  "Always" lasts a very, very long time.  No legal advisor to a company or business that I know would allow such a comment to be made as a public statement without a very strong warning - and possible resignation if the advice were to be ignored.

 

If you have concerns, then don't buy - but I think you will have a very long wait to get a model outside of the ebay speculators.

[Ian Hargrave]

None of this agonising would have been necessary at any point if they had only said, clearly and unambiguously at the outset:  "This product is, and will always remain, exclusive to the NRM".  Instead there were 'weasel words' used which could be, and were by some, interpreted as them - at the kindest - keeping their options open.  Which would be fair enough, and perfectly reasonable of them, if it was clear to us that was the case.  Or they could simply and honestly have said:  "This is a matter of future commercial judgement, and as such we're unwilling to tie our own hands".  But requests for clarity appear to have just been met with more 'fudge'.[/quote

 

If you read the posts made when the model was launched at Shildon in July,you will see that it was made clear then that the C1 Atlantic is and will remain in Locomotion's hands as an exclusive model.Brian Greenwood stated this in unambiguous and unequivocal terms.

There were no livestock present.Certainly,if there were any there,they reserved and kept the right to remain silent.

[GNR Dave]

I'm happy with the statement from Locomotion and Bachmann regarding the exclusivity of this model. Bachmann have the Brighton Atlantic and are not prevented from doing the GNR small boilered version C2 should they choose to.

 At the end of the day, the product on offer is a superb model of a fine looking locomotive at, IMHO a reasonable price. The DJH white metal kit with motor and gearbox would cost the same and I don't have the skill to paint it to anywhere near the standard shown in the pre production samples shown by the NRM.

 I want these models, and exclusivity or lack of it did not affect my decision to purchase the GNR and LNER versions. And I'll probably add the BR one to the order aswell.

[LocomotionatShildon]

We will be at warley next weekend along with 2 very nice painted samples of gnr 251 and the BR black version.

 

If you haven't made your mind up yet on which one to get this may just help you decide. Stunning !

[manna]

G'Day Gents

 

I think I'll put my name down for an unpainted RailRoad version, my 69BP cheque is in the post.

 

manna

[teaky]

We will be at warley next weekend along with 2 very nice painted samples of gnr 251 and the BR black version.

 

If you haven't made your mind up yet on which one to get this may just help you decide. Stunning !

Photos please.

 

(We'll understand if this has to be after Warley of course.)

[DLPG]

We will be at warley next weekend along with 2 very nice painted samples of gnr 251 and the BR black version.

 

If you haven't made your mind up yet on which one to get this may just help you decide. Stunning !

 

Any update on the release date?

[Frappington Jct]

Y'know, the list of stalls that I can't miss at Warley is getting longer...

[gr.king]

Given Bachmann's record I have no doubt at all that they can execute pretty paintwork and lining on the loco.

 

I'm much keener to see an example "topless" at Warley, revealing the intimate details of the type/quality of motor, the drive-train layout, the relationship between bogie and cylinders, plus the way that the rear carrying axle has been arranged. Can Locomotion arrange for that please? For an asking price of £180 I think modellers ought to be able to see that the mechanical side of things will be dead-right before they commit to ordering. How about a demonstration of the haulage ability of a representative pre-production sample of a powered loco or chassis too?

[Jol Wilkinson]

Given Bachmann's record I have no doubt at all that they can execute pretty paintwork and lining on the loco.

 

I'm much keener to see an example "topless" at Warley, revealing the intimate details of the type/quality of motor, the drive-train layout, the relationship between bogie and cylinders, plus the way that the rear carrying axle has been arranged. Can Locomotion arrange for that please? For an asking price of £180 I think modellers ought to be able to see that the mechanical side of things will be dead-right before they commit to ordering. How about a demonstration of the haulage ability of a representative pre-production sample of a powered loco or chassis too?

Like the old days when Hornby used one of their locos to haul a rather nervous young boy around an oval of track?  

 

You are just a consumer, don't expect too much involvement in the design/development process, just join the queue of must have it collectors and pay up.

 

Would many buyers know what to look for in the mechanicals? What sort of haulage power do you want anyway, three/four carriages (probably the average layouts load) or  a dozen or so? I think most buyers will be concerned about how it looks firstly, how smoothly it runs secondly and how much it can pull lastly.

[micklner]

As said earlier these are aimed at "serious" modellers and at a very premium price , what Graeme said is a very good idea.

 

 

You can then se what you are getting for £180 

[gr.king]

I wouldn't expect the loco to equal the capabilities of a carefully sorted out whitemetal-bodied loco stuffed with extra lead, but my DJH Atlantic thus treated hauls 20 coaches, runs smoothly and quietly, wears full size bogie wheels and cylinders without any chunks cut away, and also rides uneven track without trouble as well as setting back through curved roads or point formations without trouble. With the exception of the twenty coach haulage (although I'd expect eight or ten to be possible) and maybe some annoying cylinder cut outs to accommodate toy-town layouts, I think it reasonable to demand all other aspects of good performance from a £180 RTR purchase.

 

The other reason of course for wanting to see the chassis in "page three" mode is to assess the scope for any desired modifications such as a better motor, use under a C2 body, or for those thus inclined rewheeling / regauging.

 

I do take the point about the must-have cheque-book mob of course. Fortunately, with one very satisfactory C1 already in my stud and another only needing final fettling and a coat of paint some time, I don't have to pay the Bachmann / NRM price at all if I don't like key features of the new model.

Edited November 14, 2014 by gr.king

[Jol Wilkinson]

As said earlier these are aimed at "serious" modellers and at a very premium price , what Graeme said is a very good idea.

 

 

You can then se what you are getting for £180 

Mick, 

 

if the RTR manufacturers are really concerned about customer input, then they will need that much earlier in the design process and with a more structured approach than displaying a nearly finished model at a show.

 

If a group of people express varying opinions that they should change this or that according to individual opinion, belief or preference at Warley, will they go back to the drawing board? I somehow don't think so, if they believe they can sell the planned production volume as it is.

 

 

I wouldn't expect the loco to equal the capabilities of a carefully sorted out whitemetal-bodied loco stuffed with extra lead, but my DJH Atlantic thus treated hauls 20 coaches, runs smoothly and quietly, wears full size bogie wheels and cylinders without any chunks cut away, and also rides uneven track without trouble as well as setting back through curved roads or point formations without trouble. With the exception of the twenty coach haulage (although I'd expect eight or ten to be possible) and maybe some annoying cylinder cut outs to accommodate toy-town layouts, I think it reasonable to demand all other aspects of good performance from a £180 RTR purchase.

 

The other reason of course for wanting to see the chassis in "page three" mode is to assess the scope for any desired modifications such as a better motor, use under a C2 body, or for those thus inclined rewheeling / regauging.

 

I do take the point about the must-have cheque-book mob of course.

 

Why should they be interested in how you might want to adapt/modify/abuse the model they produce? They are making a model of a specific locomotive as a commercial exercise. They are using their links to their parent company, the NRM, to research and more importantly, promote the product. 

 

While the more experienced modeller represented here on RMweb will have some very valid views as to how a model should be manufactured and specified, I suggest that, from a commercial point of view, there are other factors that probably have a bigger impact on the design/development/production process. If that seems rather cynical, you have only to read some of the other RTR product threads on RMweb to see that what modellers might consider correct isn't always done by the manufacturers.

[Guest spet0114]

As said earlier these are aimed at "serious" modellers and at a very premium price , what Graeme said is a very good idea.

 

 

You can then se what you are getting for £180 

I'd have to disagree on two counts.  Whilst I've no doubt that these are 'aimed' at anyone who wants to buy them, in this case they're probably more targetted towards the collectors rather than the 'serious' modellers - hence the limited edition, hence the 'premium' price etc. I'd also point out that the 'serious' modellers have probably already built their own from brass, whitemetal, elbow grease and spit.

 

Also, please remember that the 'premium' price contains a contribution to the NRM/Locomotion and the maintenance of the national collection. I have little doubt that if that were subtracted, the price would be pretty similar to the RRP for Bachmann's 'main range' Brighton atlantic.

[gr.king]

Why should they be interested in how you might want to adapt/modify/abuse the model they produce?

How about "in order to maximise sales potential"? Not a bad commercial idea, even for the most cynical of profiteers...

 

As I said above anyway, no skin off my nose if I don't like the model as I have no great need to buy one, although I would do if it satisfies my requirements. That would make it a rational purchase decision.

[Jol Wilkinson]

How about "in order to maximise sales potential"? Not a bad commercial idea, even for the most cynical of profiteers...

 

As I said above anyway, no skin off my nose if I don't like the model as I have no great need to buy one, although I would do if it satisfies my requirements. That would make it a rational purchase decision.

It depends on the cost/benefit ratio. If you can produce the model at a price/profit for 80% of the potential customer base but getting the other 20% requires a disproportionately higher investment, why bother?

 

For example. no RTR manufacturer has apparently seen an EM option as a practical/commercial proposition. Bodies aren't marketed as a specific product to suit the EM/P4 builder, chassis aren't specifically sold separately to suit the modeller who want to fit a different body.

 

I think the RTR manufacturers/commissioners have calculated that the maximum ROI is most readily achieved by concentrating on the OO market for the collector and the modeller who simply wants to run his purchases straight out of the box.

[LocomotionatShildon]

At newcastle model rail exhibition this weekend , getting ready for warley next week and I will get the samples then. We will be at stand E22.

I'll take some pictures, but as you have seen with the P2 my photographic skills are not good but someone on here could surely give them a wow factor!

 

When you see the samples there is another little surprise , some of you may really like it!

As for delivery, we said end 14 or early 15. It does look like early 2015 but I'll keep you up to date when I have anything more definite.

[PenrithBeacon]

£180! And this for a loco that's not really suitable for the BR period. I wish Bachmann well with this venture, but ...

 

Regards

[micklner]

Mick, 

 

if the RTR manufacturers are really concerned about customer input, then they will need that much earlier in the design process and with a more structured approach than displaying a nearly finished model at a show.

 

If a group of people express varying opinions that they should change this or that according to individual opinion, belief or preference at Warley, will they go back to the drawing board? I somehow don't think so, if they believe they can sell the planned production volume as it is.

 

 

 

Why should they be interested in how you might want to adapt/modify/abuse the model they produce? They are making a model of a specific locomotive as a commercial exercise. They are using their links to their parent company, the NRM, to research and more importantly, promote the product. 

 

While the more experienced modeller represented here on RMweb will have some very valid views as to how a model should be manufactured and specified, I suggest that, from a commercial point of view, there are other factors that probably have a bigger impact on the design/development/production process. If that seems rather cynical, you have only to read some of the other RTR product threads on RMweb to see that what modellers might consider correct isn't always done by the manufacturers.

Sorry none of that was my point. As Graeme wrote  it would simply be nice to see how it is built and what it is capable of hauling . I don't delude myself that any manufacturer is going to give a fig what I or probably many others think as to their designs. 

As to the C1 what else could you modify the loco into, not many other designs spring to mind and who would be mad enough to spend £180 on a model and then cut it up . I know I wouldn't and I wouldn't spend £180 on a Loco either . As personally I have a K's version which is more than adequate for my needs.

 

 

As to the NRM hiking the price thats there choice and the people who  are willing to pay about £50 on top of what a reasonable r.r.p would be and its already built in profit margin. I but personally I strongly disagree with such practise.

The NRM is public owned and already funded by the public purse. If these Locos fail to sell what is the NRM going to do with them? reduce the price ? They already have down so with the Compound. Time will tell.

[JSpencer]

On the other side of the coin, it should be remembered that all design processes are a compromise.

 

For example, if we ask whether or not the model needs to be easily convertible to EM or P4, a good 95% or more would reply that it is not important for them. The fact the end product will be easy or not to convert, will then be more by luck than design, unless of course it can be included at no extra cost.

 

The same could be said for separately fitted cabs. This will only occur if there no other option than to mould the cab separately or they actually intend to model the cab variants, it will not happen just to please the odd customer so that they can easily modify the model if it means extra cost and a higher price.

[Ian Hargrave]

£180! And this for a loco that's not really suitable for the BR period. I wish Bachmann well with this venture, but ...Regards

Why sound so surprised ? This has been in the public domain since late July.

There was life before 1948.Some of us ,believe it or not ,were actually THERE.You looked at prices of new releases lately ? New Hornby King weighing in at £145 plus ? DJM example around £160 ?

62822 ran in BR livery. The Plant Centenarian,the Atlantic's valedictory outing,was in the early 50's.Does it matter when it ran for goodness sake ?It was...is....an example of the beauty and grace of British locomotive engineering in its heyday and at its finest.You wish whom well ?Locomotion Models ,Shildon NRM and not Bachmann own sole rights to this model.But....you ask.But what,exactly?

[PenrithBeacon]

Why sound so surprised ? This has been in the public domain since late July.

There was life before 1948.Some of us ,believe it or not ,were actually THERE.You looked at prices of new releases lately ? New Hornby King weighing in at £145 plus ? DJM example around £160 ?

62822 ran in BR livery. The Plant Centenarian,the Atlantic's valedictory outing,was in the early 50's.Does it matter when it ran for goodness sake ?It was...is....an example of the beauty and grace of British locomotive engineering in its heyday and at its finest.You wish whom well ?Locomotion Models ,Shildon NRM and not Bachmann own sole rights to this model.But....you ask.But what,exactly?

Unlike some I've got better things to do watch these mega threads develop. Mostly they are just froth and are particularly boring. I simply noticed that 'LNWRmodeller' put in his twopenneth and as he usually has some pertinent points to make I took an interest. Then I noticed the price attached to the model.

 

Yes there was life before BR and I too can remember locos carriages and wagons in pre-nationalisation liveries, but the point is that pre-nationalisation is a minority interest nowadays and this loco is priced well over the normal asking price for such an item. Also I would suggest, with respect, that not too many people will want to model the 'Plant Centenarian' train.

 

'Micklner' in his post above makes a number of good points.

Edited November 16, 2014 by PenrithBeacon

[gr.king]

Well just to stir things up a bit, let me say loudly and clearly that in my opinion the fact that a loco is NOT suitable for the hugely over-modelled* period of nationalised railway decline, inefficiency and neglect makes that loco vastly more interesting, desirable and valuable. You never know, but others may agree with me.

 

*These days, more often than not, modelled to a clone-like appearance using all-RTR models.

 

Long live Holcroft-Gresley-Walschaerts conjugated valve gear too.

Edited November 16, 2014 by gr.king

[Bernard Lamb]

 

Yes there was life before BR and I too can remember locos carriages and wagons in pre-nationalisation liveries, but the point is that pre-nationalisation is a minority interest nowadays and this loco is priced well over the normal asking price for such an item.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Big apple green locos seem to be very popular at present.

Hornby pacifics from tooling that should have been paid for long ago are going to be close to that price on the next releases.

For an all singing all dancing special edition, only available at RRP plus a contribution to the NRM, I reckon in 2015 price terms it represents rather good value for money.

Welcome to 2015. Just watch when the £50 coach becomes a thing of the past.

Bernard