LMS Driving Trailer D1790

[brossard]

I know I'm not the first to do this and have looked at one or two threads but I haven't found an answer to my questions:

 

1)  What does the driver's compartment look like?

2)  What lining scheme was used in, say, 1936?

 

I am building the Comet kit (what a surprise!) and have the thing well advanced:

 

 

Bogies are done as well and running qualities tested.

 

I think Q1 is self explanatory.

 

Q2 has me a bit confused.  It is likely that these coaches, being Period II were given the full paneled lining.  They seem to have been built in the late 20s - early 30s.  Simplified lining was introduced in 1934, but coaches already painted surely wouldn't get a full repaint unless there was a pressing need.  I have never seen a picture of a Period I or II coach with simplified lining.  Can someone clarify?

 

John

[Marshall5]

I don't know if you have access to a copy of Jenkinson's original 'LMS coaches' but there is a good picture (p144) of D1790 # 24404 in 1934. This was converted in 1930/2 and still had it's lookout duckets and full panelled lining with what certainly looks like a red driving end. You can (just) see some of the driving controls through the window and there is a drawing on p143 whichshows the position of the driving seat and handbrake. Some years ago I had a dia 1790 but wasn't sure that any still had their duckets by my modelling period (late 50's) so replaced it with a B.R. built one to dia 2122. Hope this helps. Ray.

[brossard]

Thanks Ray, yes I have the main books relating to LMS coaches (the one you mentioned plus Historic Carriage Drawings, LMS & Constituents by Jenkinson - hugely valuable btw)  as well as full sets of LMS Journal and Midland Record.  I've been unable to find a good picture of the cab.  I did find one picture from inside the cab but the subject was the driver and the controls are not clear.   Bob Essery refers to a picture in one of his books that I don't have.  Ends were red prior to simplified lining.

 

John

[brossard]

I thought I'd provide an update.  I did the roof last night and the underframe detail today.  I put it all together to see how it ran (good!) and how it looked:

 

 

All the heavy lifting is done now and it's down to detailing, interior (driver's compartment?) and, gulp, painting.

 

John

[Mallard60022]

Nice Job mate.

P

[brossard]

Over the last few days I've been beavering away at adding details.  Here's the current state of play:

 

 

You can see the front bogie with stepboards and guard irons.  There doesn't seem to any consistency in whether there is a full length board or half length.  I have a picture of one of Coachman's D1790s, so I opted for the configuration on there.

 

Duckets were sweated on using a mix of 145C and 70C solder.  Something I hadn't done before but it worked out OK, once I got the iron temperature right.

Buffers are now on.

There's a handrail for the driver inside the cab.

 

 

Alarm gear can be seen on the rear end as well as grab rails.  I added a step to the left rear corner.
 
Note the hook for coupling.  I'm going to use Tony Wright's system.  I've used it before and it works extremely well.

I will point out some reading material that I dug up yesterday.

First, there is Mike Clark's (of Masokits) article in MRJs 48 and 48 (1991), on building some LMS coaches.  He provides info on some extra detailing of the underframe (like wiring for the dynamo and feed pipes for the vac. cylinders) and there's even super detailed drawings of a brake and coach underframe - there are differences.  I had a go at reproducing some of these details although they're not really visible in the photos.

The other is Andrew Lambert's article in MRJs 80, 81 and 82 (1995), again on building an LMS coach.  I am quite inspired by his approach to the interior so will look into that.

These are well worth a look if you plan to try a Comet kit.  I'm rather enjoying it.

I still have some plastic bits to stick on (wot no solder!?) - the above door ventilators and alarm gear box.

 

John

[coachmann]

The Period II D1790's carried full single waist style panelled livery when new and I think it is safe to assume it would last at least five years. If repainted in 1936 they would get the livery then in vogue, namely simple livery and yellow insignia and both ends red. If repainted in 1937 then non driving ends become black.

 

Regarding driving compartments, I simply installed an etched stem with a handle on top for the driver and a seat against the bulkhead wall.

[brossard]

Thanks Larry, it's just that I've never seen a picture of Period I or II coaches with the later livery and was wondering if any actually got done.  Part of my problem is I don't know how long the original paint would last.  I think I'm going for the latest Period II lot built/converted 1930 - 1932.  There's a picture of 24404 in E&J taken in 1934 in panelled lining.

 

As for the driver's compartment, I had a brain wave to base it the Cl 108 DMU.  I'm not looking for anything super detailed, but I would like to represent the layout.

 

I'm pretty sure my duckets are too low . 

 

John

[coachmann]

Two D1790s showing the as-built livery and the later simplified livery styles.....

 

 

[brossard]

Wonderful!  I'm of two minds over the lining.  First I'm looking for a pretext to do the simplified lining - obviously easier and I have HMRS transfers for that.  Second, the panelled really does look good.  Of all the skills that I've gained some competence with in this hobby, mastering a ruling pen isn't one of them.  For the panelled lining, my thoughts turn to making my own transfers.  I did this with fair success for the complex 1912 lining of 5 LSWR coaches (Roxey).

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77374-a-rake-of-lswr-coaches/

 

John

[brossard]

I'm starting to get the feel for Andrew Lambert's interior method.  I spent the last two days laboriously cutting plastic card to shape and now have an interior wall:

 

 

 

There's a base layer that forms the cavity in which the glazing sits.  This had to be 0.020" thick to suit the glazing supplied by Comet (Andrew specifies 0.010").  With the inner wall installed, there are now pockets for the glazing.  The window apertures still need trimming to size.

 

John

[brossard]

I have been working on interior detail for the last two days.  There's a lot of waiting for paint to dry.  Things finally came together today:

 

 

The pictures in their frames took a disproportionate amount of time and effort.  This is take two as I got them far too big the first time round.  I found some lovely pictures that can be downloaded here:

 

http://claudebuckle.co.uk/carriages/carriages.php

 

In the end though, they scale to such a small size that the detail isn't distinguishable.

 

I did do a driver's compartment based on a DMU as this cruel closeup shows:

 

 

I felt there would be two gauges - a speedometer and vacuum.  There would be two levers as well - regulator and brake.  I assume the red thing might be the emergency brake.  I also added a handbrake to the side of the driver.

 

The driver is Monty's figure that had to endure some painful surgery to attain a sitting position.  I made a seat for him from some scrap brass strip and tube.

 

So, if all this is rubbish, remember I did ask in post #1.

 

John

[brossard]

Since my last update, I have primed the major subassemblies:

 

 

The roof is actually finished.

 

The grey is from a spray can formulated for metal.  The red oxide is also from a spray can, but can be used on plastic as well as metal.  Both from our equivalent of Halfords I think, Canadian Tire.

 

I slipped strips of 0.020" and 0.010" strip into the window pockets.  This was for two reasons: 1)  to mask them and 2) to ensure that there are no obstructions.  I didn't want to be hacking away after painting.

 

John

[brossard]

I'm just finishing off some paint retouches on the body.  Lesson learned here:  don't try to take a shortcut painting largish areas with a brush - it'll turn out a mess, mine did anyway.  Take the time to set up the airbrush.

 

Another lesson - don't try to stick things like jumper cables on after painting, there's a risk of damage to the paint (which started off the retouching in the first place).  Stick them on before painting, they'll be more secure and it isn't difficult to pick them out in black later.

 

A question about bogie stepboards for the experts.  Drawings and photos show bogies variously with full length stepboards, half stepboards or none at all.  I think I know the answer but a bit of discussion might be helpful to others.

 

I am fairly confident that the driver's end bogie had full length stepboards - see post #6.  I've seen pictures.

 

At the other end, I put a footstep which can be seen in post #6 as well.  However, I think that may be wrong for period II vehicles.  I think, and this is where the clarification comes in, period I and II vehicles had bogie half stepboards to access the end steps.  The footstep was introduced in period III.

 

It's not a big deal to add a half stepboard.

 

Thanks

 

John

[coachmann]

When it comes to footboards, Midland and LMS coaches built with full length bogie stepboards started to have them removed from around 1934 and replaced with short stepboards under one axlebox on the RH bogie. Bogies situated at a brake and had short stepboards both sides to aid the guard. As might be expected there were variants and some coaches retained full length stepboards at the guards end or driving end on motor-fitted coaches. As usual the advice is work off photos. Stanier coaches had stepboards only on bogies at the brake end, otherwise they had a footboard suspended from the solebars at the RH end of each side.

[brossard]

Thanks Coachmann, I think you've confirmed my belief.  Pictures of the non-driven end don't seem to be very common, as are pictures of the non-driving trailer (just started that).  I need to rework the far end bogie with a half step board on the LHS only.  I'll leave the full length board on the driver's end.  I intend to make two 2 coach sets so perhaps the next set will have some variation.

 

John

[brossard]

While waiting for paint to dry, I thought I'd start on the all 3rd non-driving trailer.  First up were the bogies.  These aren't particularly difficult, but I thought I'd share one annoyance and how I dealt with it.  When assembled, the wheels are quite difficult to get in.  It is possible at the early stages but gets more difficult when the cast sides are installed.   The final assembly is very rigid with very little scope for spreading the sides for wheel installation.

 

 

I used flanged bearings and probably should have used the non flanged type.  However, I like that the flange gives a positive position.  The picture shows that I filed the flange flush with the bogie side and added a slight bevel to the lower half of the bearing.  I also used a sharp edged file to put a notch in the bearing.  Now, the wheelset is a push fit in the bearings with a satisfying "click".

 

John

[brossard]

So, I think I've got the construction and painting pretty much complete.  I did a trial assembly:

 

 

 

Mostly things look good.  I missed the roof edges - no big deal.  The roof isn't sitting as well as I would like - I think the interior wall is interfering so that needs some fettling.

 

I fitted a half stepboard to the non-driving end bogie, as discussed above.

 

Not easy to see but I fitted a pipe under the LHS footboard for, I think, the regulator vacuum.  It connects to the RHS standpipe.

 

John