DJM Dave Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 This section is for discussion regarding an N gauge Pendolino, and it's potential crowd funding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 12, 2014 Does anyone know how many different bodyshells you actually need for a Pendolino? I know that a lot of the coaches are slightly different interior-wise (and hence given different classifications), but how about the exterior shells? Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpendle Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Ok so I asked Dave to start this after he asked me to start it, or something like that. I think the questions that need to be answered are How many members of RMWeb would want or would buy an N Gauge Pendolino? How big should that Pendolino be? I can run full length trains but I understand that many people cannot. Should it be launched as a 4/5 coach starter set with additional coaches available to build up to 12 or 13 coaches? Should it be funded in stages, maybe 20% for the CAD, 40% for the tooling and the final 40% when its delivered? Some come on let's find out if this really could be a possibility, or whether me and 4 or 5 others on the forum are just deluding ourselves Almost forgot: I'd want 3, not necessarily all at once. I would want a full train of 12/13 coaches and I'd be prepared to put some money up front or to pay in installments. John P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Hi John, I envisage the ability to produce 2 book sets. 1 with both ends, buffet and a first class coach, and a second with 5 coaches making a 9 car set. Un numbered coaches available separately if required. However I would suggest all 9 available at launch in equal numbers of book sets. Just my musings Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0rris Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Although it would mean a total change of course in my N gauge plans, I would definitely be interested in an N gauge Pendolino! A 9 car unit would be my limit, as I do not envisage having the space to go any bigger and the two bookset method that Dave has suggested would work best in my mind. I would be after one unit. Re. the crowdfunding, I would be interested in it as an option, I'll go and have a look at the other DJM crowdfunding project and how that works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibuchan Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Me, me, me, me, me! I would want at least 1 or 2 (possibly 3). And I dare say some of our other club members would want some. Paying in instalments would be best for me. And I would want them as full 9 car sets (with the option to add extras when I could) Alistair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Robert Shrives Posted August 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 12, 2014 Hi If I recall correctly 5 body types are required, with end vehicles differing, a buffet /pantograph car, saloon vehicle and saloon pantograph car Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gelboy45 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Kato has been successful in the US and Japan with their prototypical passenger train sets in n scale and Rapido in Canada has made the complete 'Canadian' train in HO to much acclaim so perhaps we in the UK may be ready for this concept now. You cannot model the modern WCML without the Pendolino so everything depends on the true demand for it. Do any recent polls indicate its popularity (assuming a representation of the correct OHL stuff would be available for it to run under too)? So much to consider........ Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 12, 2014 Just been looking at some pics and if slides work for the windows then it might be possible to do it using just two basic bodies ie the car and one trailer design assuming that slides can be used for the windows and some of the roof detail for the panto cars. I think Dave's idea of a basic 4 or 5 car set plus an additional set makes a lot of sense. Particularly if the two sets built up into the 9 car rakes with additional coaches F and U available to make the 11 car rakes. I'd be after at least 2 x 9 car sets (possibly more). I'd caution against funding in stages as lets say the worst happened and the 1st stage got funded but the next stage didn't then you potentially lose a fair amount of people's money. I don't know enough about the particulars of kickstarter as to when monies are released ie would they be on reaching target goals or when something got produced? Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeharvey22 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I'd be in for 2x9/11 car sets. The two bookset concept seems just right for this train, but at least in N a full train is not as scary as in 00. Kato's 2+ 8 TGVs have been successful and come out at about the same overall length. But the TGV's cross border services probably mean that the train appeals to a much wider market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 12, 2014 Hello all, I would certainly support this project, however I think that to make the appeal as broad as possible (and therefore make it more likely to happen) we'd need to be realistic about the balance between realism and cost. Picking up on Mike's point above, I think that it may be that costs can be reduced with careful design. So, for example, rather than requiring five tools for five different cars it may be that by careful splitting of parts we could make do with a driving car tool, a saloon car tool and then switchable roofs, glazing ribbons and underframes. As I say, I am happy to support this project and would definitely want at least one full length Pendolino for myself, but I can see there needs to be a fair amount of measured discussion first..... cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Would the lack of liveries easily be overcome as one possible doubt? Would modellers in N expect the model to have a modicom of "tilt"? Although these trains reach beyond weaver junction anybody modelling a snippet of wcml between euston-wls-lime st-picc would benefit from a 4 track lattice ohle gantry along the same lines as Dapols plastic catenary. Look at Kinlet wharf for really good southern wcml catenary. It might be a scratchbuild. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 What is coming through loud and clear lately is that there are people who want to see new electric models and that has to be a good thing whether its a loco or an emu. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alibuchan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The OHLE on Kinlet wharf is all scratch built using etches and sections of rail. There are a few advertising liveries that have been applies to the pendolino. There are currently xmen, and Alston Pendolino versions. And I'm sue there has been a few others. Alistair Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 13, 2014 The OHLE on Kinlet wharf is all scratch built using etches and sections of rail. There are a few advertising liveries that have been applies to the pendolino. There are currently xmen, and Alston Pendolino versions. And I'm sue there has been a few others. Alistair I bet that the licensing issues for these would be very complex. They would also date a model to within a very short time frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hi everyone, Just a few things to clarify. £250,000 is the current cheapest quote out of China and getting it cheaper doesn't look to be an option I'm afraid. It would, if backers can be found, be modular with assorted slides etc where needed, but please remember that slides are now over 5 figures per tool. Coaches would have to be on a separate tool if they were to be re run from time to time to expand the train at all and that's another costing taken into account. It wouldn't be a stripped out one, but a full specification model, however not necessarily with tilt. Any Kickstarter ( for example) doesn't allow for part payments or any payment other than the full amount requested. It also won't usually allow for deleopment then tooling together in 1 large fund, preferring them to be separate campaigns. The question then is how do you reward someone for a development campaign success? You can't really give them something tangible until the tooling Kickstarter is successful. ( what if it isn't? ) what happens then? I wouldn't necessarily be concentrating on features, tooling etc, as I'm not interested in taking on any project that won't do me proud. I'd be more interested in seeing if there is 1000 people out there interested in a 9 car pendolino that are willing to commit hard earned funds for. And if someone can be found who will run the Kickstarter, or whatever crowd funding program, for this model. After all, and here's the challenge, we keep getting told 'N gauge is growing', and 'a pendolino will sell', and 'we need more electric trains', let's now see if that's true, then we will all know for sure. The gauntlet has been cast down :-) Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Robert Shrives Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 13, 2014 I understand that Dapol are actively pursuing gantry for OLE in N and OO with a two track base and possibly an extension piece to go multitrack. It had been shown in latest catalogue so hopefully by time Dave has his booksets funded .. Now where is my lottery ticket !!!!! Robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Any Kickstarter ( for example) doesn't allow for part payments or any payment other than the full amount requested. One thing that Kickstarter does permit is different pledge levels with different rewards. So for example it would be possible to have a £150 pledge to buy the powered 4-car core set and a £250 pledge which would buy the full 9-car set (all figures hypothetical). This would be the easiest way to support people who want both full and shorty formations. The only potential problem is that if a lot of people want the shorty formations, there might not be enough funds to support the extra coaches which would disappoint those who want a full formation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hi Dave, What would the £250k quoted produce? All the tooling plus a run of, say, 1000 models? Or are there additional costs (shipping, development, tax, project management fees...) to be incorporated? On the face of it, were each 9 car unit in a single book set to come in at £250 that doesn't seem too bad considering a 6-car Blue Pullman is around £270 RRP. I'd sign up for two. Is it likely that there are others ready to sign up for another 998 at this price? A further thought: if we were to use the factory producing the Rapido APT-E model then they will have recent experience of producing a model with tilt... perhaps the same techniques could be incorporated?? cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Reading back through the postings to date, this has stimulated a fascinating debate. I do wonder if Karhedron is closer to the mark. To have any chance of success does the project need to have two specific elements: - - Stage 1 for Crowd Funding a (say) four or five car core set. - Stage 2 an add on four or five coach "book" of additional carriages? That way if there is sufficient demand for a "core" Pendolino but insufficient for the add on coaches you haven't "killed" the entire project by an "all or nothing" approach. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hi Ben, The spec I had in mind and quoted for was £250,000 for a fully finished, painted, DCC ready train. (Non tilt) On the assumption that ownership of the tooling would pass to me, I'd be paying shipping, import duty and taxes and a development profit for me of course, as I'd get to recoup all that and more over future years. ( very altruistic I know but it would then broaden my portfolio of models). This is why the cost is low. If these things were factored in the model would be a darn sight more than £250.00 per set. I wouldn't use Rapidos factory for a number of reasons, and I certainly wouldn't look to clone their tilting system ( not because I think little of it, far from it) but I think that possibly the tolerances required in British N gauge might put it 'out of gauge' slightly on corners etc and possibly a little gimmicky and would you really notice 3 or so degrees of tilt? If you really want tilt, fair enough, and I'd have to get a quotation for that, but the problem you could all fall into is the 'decision by committee' where talking specifications takes up more time than fund raising or making people aware of the project to get those who might be interested to commit. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJM Dave Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 Reading back through the postings to date, this has stimulated a fascinating debate. I do wonder if Karhedron is closer to the mark. To have any chance of success does the project need to have two specific elements: - - Stage 1 for Crowd Funding a (say) four or five car core set. - Stage 2 an add on four or five coach "book" of additional carriages? That way if there is sufficient demand for a "core" Pendolino but insufficient for the add on coaches you haven't "killed" the entire project by an "all or nothing" approach. Roy Hi Roy, In an ideal world I'd agree with you, however as far as my digging goes, Kickstarter won't allow production of a model and development of that model in 1 lump sum, so you'd be talking 3 campaigns, not 2 This gets really problematic, and draws out any possible profit defer remedy for me for a fair time. Also, I think there's a problem with those that would want a full train right away ( my preferred production and tooling choice by the way) not getting it, possibly ever! This is a chance to get a full length 9 car iconic train that 'everyone' apparently wants in 1 hit. Piecemeal won't help me ( I have a business to run after all) or the modeller I think. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hi Dave Fair enough, given what you say I can see your point completely. My thinking was that many of those potentially wanting one would not have room for the full formation and be put off whereas a 5 or 6 car set may work. It will be interesting to see how this develops and if indeed the demand for a crowd funded Pendolino is sufficient to support it's development (I have a hat ready seasoned just in case!). Regards Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I model the GWR and as such I have no need or room for a Pendolino. But if a full 9-car rake could be made for around the £250 mark, I would be tempted to sign up both for the value for money that it would represent and to support OHEL in general. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Agreed £250 for a full 9 car set would be exceptional value. Although I could not justify that amount of money out of my modelling budget to support this, I would strongly recommend those that want one to get behind this proposal and spread the word. This looks like the best (possibly only) way of getting a Pendolino in N and if there does turn out to be sufficient demand to meet the minimum order quantity, as I have alluded above, I would be very pleased to have been proved wrong. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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