markyb208 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Hi All, I've just bought the above and will be building it as the Bulldog version. Sometime ago I was looking on here for threads about this build, and came across one talking about discrepancies with the boiler/smokebox length of the Dapol kit. I think it was something to do with the locos receiving superheaters but i may be wrong. Now I can't find it. I would be grateful if somebody could let me know the details of this, and if they have built the kit with modifications, how they went about it. Regards, Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) Smokebox needs to be extended by about 3mm to represent the superheated era. Boiler is OK for a Standard no.2, but undersized for a Standard no.4. This shouldn't worry you, as the Bulldogs had no.2s. Also, the footplate/running plate is wrong - the curved part where it rises from the bogie to the driving wheels is placed too far forward. If my memory is correct, you need to move that section back by about 3 or 4mm, so that means sawing out the affected section plus adjoining sections, and then grafting them back in a different order. You might need to graft a very thin section onto the cabsides (i.e. the part where the vertical handrail is) to make them look a bit longer - here's a useful broadside model view. Broadside of real thing here Weight drawing here - note NOT to scale Edited August 13, 2014 by Horsetan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 A Bulldog is hardly a "version" of a City! There are many detail differences and there was much more variation amongst the Bulldogs. Perhaps the most obvious difference is in the boilers. Whilst most Bulldogs went through parallel, short and long cone boilers, most were eventually fitted with Standard No 2 boilers which are about 6" smaller in diameter at all points than the No 4 boilers on Cities. The fireboxes were similarly about 6" lower. Both classes had shorter smokeboxes prior to superheating, though in the 1930s some Bulldogs were fitted with the shorter No 3 boilers, so had longer smokeboxes, extended backwards to make up the difference. If you want to model a Bulldog, you really need to choose a specific engine at a specific date, preferably one with some good photos. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 A Bulldog is hardly a "version" of a City! ..... most were eventually fitted with Standard No 2 boilers which are about 6" smaller in diameter at all points than the No 4 boilers on Cities. The fireboxes were similarly about 6" lower. ... Yes, but the old KAD mouldings are arguably closer to a no.2 than a no.4 because they are undersized, no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Yes, but the old KAD mouldings are arguably closer to a no.2 than a no.4 because they are undersized, no? Maybe, I think I have one at the bottom of a cupboard but haven't looked at it for more than ten years Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyb208 Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 A Bulldog is hardly a "version" of a City! There are many detail differences and there was much more variation amongst the Bulldogs. Perhaps the most obvious difference is in the boilers. Whilst most Bulldogs went through parallel, short and long cone boilers, most were eventually fitted with Standard No 2 boilers which are about 6" smaller in diameter at all points than the No 4 boilers on Cities. The fireboxes were similarly about 6" lower. Both classes had shorter smokeboxes prior to superheating, though in the 1930s some Bulldogs were fitted with the shorter No 3 boilers, so had longer smokeboxes, extended backwards to make up the difference. If you want to model a Bulldog, you really need to choose a specific engine at a specific date, preferably one with some good photos. Nick Nick, When I ordered the detailing kits from Branchlines, their literature stated that a Bulldog version of the kits was available, which is what I bought. Would Branchlines supply this version if it's completely wrong? Regards, Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) ...Would Branchlines supply this version if it's completely wrong? Not having seen the Branchlines kit, I wouldn't know. It wouldn't be the first time there were errors in a kit. However, my post refered almost entirely to the Dapol parts and I assume the Branchlines parts take account of the running plate differences as mentioned by Horsetan, as well as several others not mentioned by either of us. At the Dapol end, you'll also need to take account of the lower boiler pitch (7'9") of the Bulldog compared with 8'61/4" on the City. The Bulldog running plate is, of course, much lower because of the smaller driving wheels but the cab itself is also lower and shorters (not sure what Horsetan meant about making them longer). btw all except the first Martin Finney example in Horsetan's links are 'Birds', the last form of Bulldog to be build. They have much deeper outer frames than the previous straight framed type. Rather than us drip feeding you different dimensions, you would be much better off getting your hands on a copy of Jim Russell's A Pictorial Record of GW Engines, vol 2. It has many photos and drawings of the two classes at different stages of their lives. Nick ps. don't Branchlines provide any information about modifying the Dapol parts? Edited August 13, 2014 by buffalo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 ...ps. don't Branchlines provide any information about modifying the Dapol parts? They do. It's all in the instructions..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyb208 Posted August 13, 2014 Author Share Posted August 13, 2014 (edited) Hi All, Thanks for all the info. I only got the Branchlines kit today and haven't yet opened all the packages. I've got the Russell books so will look through them. The Branchlines chassis kit includes the deeper frames for the Bird. As far as the accuracy of the Dapol kit is concerned, It seems to be neither fish nor fowl. I'm just going to have to do loads of research. One other thing, my layout is based around 1947 and I believe that the surviving locos by this time might have had the original tenders replaced with the Churchward 3500 gallon tender, not the one that comes with the kit. If anyone has a spare one of these tenders they are willing to part with, then please let me know. Regards, Mark Edited August 13, 2014 by markyb208 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I've modified a few locomotives (though not these classes). My method is to overlay drawings of the different types, to show where the differences lie. Here's an example, where I have overlaid outline drawings of a 'City' (short smokebox) and a 'Bird' over my Dapol model of City of Truro. I aligned the drawings at the driving wheel centres and this is the only way they are scaled. Of course, the 'Bird' would sit much lower, because of the smaller wheels, but this method shows how the boilers compare. The pitches of the boilers above the rails may be different but the heights above the footplates are similar. The Dapol boiler appears to be a little smaller in diameter than a No.4 but not as small as a No.2. Depending on your outlook, you could accept it as a fair compromise to represent either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayfield2 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Just out of interest, how accurate were the Keyser range of locos ? Secondly is there any RTR plastic bodies that could be a donor for the boiler/firebox ? With regard to the tender, they do come up on Ebay quite often and as an after thought could any of the RTR plastic ones be used Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyb208 Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 Hi Mike, Thanks for the info and drawings, most useful to see. I will keep my eyes open for a replacement tender. Regards, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 As far as I am aware there are no rtr bodies with a no 2 complete boiler. The large prairie has the same boiler as a Bulldog but only part of the boiler is produced for the rtr body, so not much use. Here is my 'Bird' which is a K's with modified side frames. The large 3,500 tender is K's bought with the kit - when you bought direct from K's in Banbury you could request any tender in the range. This is a straight frame K's bulldog bought from a friend with the large tender from a scrap Bachmann Manor Mike Wiltshire 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 As far as I am aware there are no rtr bodies with a no 2 complete boiler. The large prairie has the same boiler as a Bulldog but only part of the boiler is produced for the rtr body, so not much use. Thought: could you get away with it by grafting on the corresponding section from the KAD moulding to the Large Prairie one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayfield2 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Will there be any Great British Trains released that would do. Also many years ago (70's) I bought a plastic kit built loco of a Collett goods loco, think on a Triang Chassis. Cant remember a Kitmaster kit of that loco though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Will there be any Great British Trains released that would do. Also many years ago (70's) I bought a plastic kit built loco of a Collett goods loco, think on a Triang Chassis. Cant remember a Kitmaster kit of that loco though From memory the Collett Goods used the Standard 10 boiler. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 From memory the Collett Goods used the Standard 10 boiler. ...as did the 94xx (which was in effect the tank version of the Collett Goods), and the 15xx shunter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyb208 Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 Hi All, I've just bought the above and will be building it as the Bulldog version. Sometime ago I was looking on here for threads about this build, and came across one talking about discrepancies with the boiler/smokebox length of the Dapol kit. I think it was something to do with the locos receiving superheaters but i may be wrong. Now I can't find it. I would be grateful if somebody could let me know the details of this, and if they have built the kit with modifications, how they went about it. Regards, Mark. Hi All, Further to this thread, could somebody point out what the differences are between the Churchward and Collett 3500 tenders please? I want to put one or other of them on the back of this loco I'm building and would like to know which would be the correct one, or if they ran with both. Thanks Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81E Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 There are quite a few differences between the two. Firstly the Collett frames are deeper and the Churchward tender has coal plates on the side only whereas the Collets wrap around the back like the 4000g version. As an aside has anyone dismantled a Bachmann Earl. If so does the cab, boiler and smokebox come off cleanly (ie. no smokebox saddle left on the footplate as I am considering using a modified Dapol City boiler to produce a Bulldog from one of these. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 ...I am considering using a modified Dapol City boiler to produce a Bulldog from one of these. You might want to cross-check the Dapol City boiler with the top section of the Dapol Large Prairie. The City boiler claims to be a Std. No.4 but is undersized, but might still be too big for a no.2; the Large Prairie will give you at least part of a no.2 and a longer smokebox. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 I have a City to Bulldog conversion planned so MikeOxons drawings are excellent. The 6'8" 4-4-0s sat 6" higher than the 5'8" The frames were the same and the buffers were simply raised up the buffer beam to make the difference. The cab steps were different with the top step squeezed into a 6" smaller space on the 5'8" locos. It looks like the 6'8" locos had the front footplate of the tender between the sideplates raised by 6" compared to the 5'8" locos. I did wonder about using the Dapol or Arfix/Hoenby 61XX boiler and smokebox but had not realised how much lower the No 2 sat at the front end. The Std 2 used on the Bulldog had a short barrel version, the Std 3 used on 2-4-2 T and BR Std 3MT 2-6-2T and a short barrel short firebox version the Std 10 used on various pre group 0-6-2Ts the MSWJR 0-6-0s and the 2251, 15XX and 94XX so the Bachmann 2251 might be a good smokebox and boiler barrel donor. The No1 boiler had the same diameter smokebox as the No4 so a Hall/Grange /28XX might be a good smokebox donor for a City. Some Bulldogs had Collett 3000 gallon Tenders a la Mainline 2251. Some had Churchward 3500 gallon but I am sure none had Collett 3500 gallon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 As an aside, the Truro kit has also been used in the past for "Dukedog" conversions, so there's another possibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NCB Posted October 29, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 29, 2016 It looks like the 6'8" locos had the front footplate of the tender between the sideplates raised by 6" compared to the 5'8" locos. The height of GWR tender footplates varied according to the engine they were to be attached to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony phelps Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 has anyone used a "Nellie Polly or any other triang/Hornby 0 4 0 to convert a Airfix/Dapol City to a bulldog what wheels extended axles outside cranks chassis bushes did you use hope there's someone who could help me thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 has anyone used a "Nellie Polly or any other triang/Hornby 0 4 0 to convert a Airfix/Dapol City to a bulldog what wheels extended axles outside cranks chassis bushes did you use hope there's someone who could help me thanks It's something I've considered, but, since Nellie and her sisters go like the proverbial scalded cat, I have my doubts about the results with larger wheels. I have a feeling the wheelbase may be wrong too. (I could be wrong, but I think one is eight foot and the other eight foot six??) For outside cranks, I use Romford wheels and cranks, with extra wheelnuts to beef up the thin thread and locknut the cranks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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