Kernow Model Rail Centre to produce GWR 1361 0-6-0 Saddle Tank

[Miss Prism]

Were there other classes that didn't have a GWR identity on them?

 

As Nick indicates, saddle tanks were normally unlettered after 1906. A lot of small side tank engines did not carry lettering either where number plates were centrally placed on the tanks. (Metros, 517.) I can't recall any evidence that the 1361 class carried the shirtbutton, and I think the class probably still had the shorter chimney at that immediately post-1934 era. The original wooden roofs might have got replaced late 1920s/early 1930s.

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Miss Prism

[The Stationmaster]

The Kernow page DOES say GWR but as Miss P posted earlier the photo is probably wartime black and is very ambigious.I'm not sure saddle tanks carried this livery in the main.

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/product/43617/K2204_DJ_Models_060_1361_Steam_Locomotive_number_1364

Further research is underway (although it will take me some time as the only records I have of wartime GWR loco repaints are on a month by month basis and regrettably are not entirely complete - and they only cover Swindon for most if it anyway).  But I understand it is quite popular in the advertised livery

 

One point worth making at this time (as Castle will understand - and I know which one he ordered, because it's ordered in my name, I won't giveaway his secret) is that the running numbers chosen by Kernow will reflect certain subtle differences in detail among various members of the class.  While they were perhaps less inclined to variation than the 1366 panniers (which I think almost all changed over time in various rather obvious details)  there were differences within the 1361 class and not just in the matter of changing chimneys.

 

The question about the Cornwall Railway engines is interesting and of course any future decision rests with Kernow but all I will say is that there are at first sight, significant differences (in production terms) between them and the Holcroft 1361s.  In my view the Cornish engines, in one or other of their various rebuilt forms, would make a nice little model but they are a good step away from a 1361 and after all didn't Not Captain Kernow draw attention to other possibilities in the 'guessing thread', or were they all red herrings?

 

So sorry I couldn't join the launch froth but I was on family business in East Devon and thanks to at least two contributors to this thread who had worked out what it was that was about to appear but had kept it quiet.  

 

PS Not only is Castle's ordered in my name but mine are too

[Killybegs]

Here's 1365 at St. Philips Marsh in 1961

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Looks like that chassis (or the Heljan equivalent) could be useful for freelance industrial modellers and the 0-16.5 brigade.

 

Meanwhile for GWR modellers, I wonder if there's potential for conversion to a 1392 class here?

 

Looking in Russell the wheelbase seems to have been the same as the original Cornwall 1392 class, but the 1361 cylinders appear a smidgen longer (or possibly one of the drawings in Russell is a little off scale?). The original tanks on the 1392s seem to have been different from the 1361 class, but the GWR appear to have added a new boiler to at least No. 1395 in 1901.There's a photo in Russell (p. 118 fig 305) of what I assume is the reboilered No. 1395, and this has a two course tank that looks very similar to the 1361 tanks. We need a proper drawing of the reboilered 1392s though.

 

 

Edited to be more precise

See my previous post Mikkel - my preliminary research didn't produce a very encouraging picture.  Effectively I think you would have to decide on a particular member of the 1392 class on a certain date and then tool up just to make it.  I doubt that would be very encouraging for a manufacturer and in any case the decision would be Kernow's of course - but it isn't a simple job and would therefore be an expensive one.

Edited August 18, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[Castle]

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for keeping my secret about ordering another little No. 1363 to go along with my existing etched kit version. As always, discretion has been assure...

 

D'oh!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

Edited August 18, 2014 by Castle

[gwrrob]

Over the weekend I've seen photos of 1364 in both Great Western [undated] and shirtbutton [1949] taken at Newton Abbot.

[Miss Prism]

Over the weekend I've seen photos of 1364 in both Great Western [undated] and shirtbutton [1949] taken at Newton Abbot.

 

Short or tall chimneys?

 

Also, let's not forget that the appearance of a works pet doesn't imply anything about the appearance of the rest of the class. (Swindon 'forgot' to replace G W R on some its works/station Panniers!)

[tomparryharry]

I don't know.....

 

All this fuss....

 

What's wrong with the 'ontracks' model......?

 

OUCH! That hurt!!!!!

[Castle]

Well Paul, an OO gauge No. 1363 would grace any mantelpiece...

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[Mikkel]

See my previous post Mikkel - my preliminary research didn't produce a very encouraging picture.  Effectively I think you would have to decide on a particular member of the 1392 class on a certain date and then tool up just to make it.  I doubt that would be very encouraging for a manufacturer and in any case the decision would be Kernow's of course - but it isn't a simple job and would therefore be an expensive one.

Thanks Mike. I was thinking that it might be possible for the modeller to cut up the body and rebuild it as a 1392, re-using the saddle tanks. But maybe not. If the chassis is correct, a fully scratchbuilt body might be an interesting project.

[stock_2007]

Kernow  must be keen doing the GWR loco and the class 71 with DJ Models of course the 71 is being paid for with crowed sourcing

Edited August 18, 2014 by stock_2007

[Captain Kernow]

That's not the point, i wouldn't dare touch a £100 plus loco with my cack-handed skills.

 

Landscapes i can do, locos are left alone, if it doesn't have the livery from the box i don't buy it.

 

You might scratchbuild and would find transfers trivial, i do not, therfore my point is still valid.

I appreciate what you're saying here, but perhaps a third party/friend could do the re-lettering for you? Perhaps there is someone on RMWeb who doesn't live too far away who might be willing to help? That way you get the best of both worlds...

[Ozexpatriate]

Seems a bit silly to do so many liveries and then leave out the one alot of Great Western modellers will want especially when it's common knowledge that shirtbutton models don't sell compared with the other GW liveries.

Surely, it would only take a few minutes to remove the shirtbutton and apply GREAT WESTERN transfers?

 

Few, if any, GWR saddle tanks carried it before 1930 and only some thereafter, although it is not a class I know well, I don't recall seeing an example.

... perhaps a third party/friend could do the re-lettering for you? Perhaps there is someone on RMWeb who doesn't live too far away who might be willing to help? That way you get the best of both worlds...

Removing the shirt button and not applying any lettering seems like it might be a viable option here - making the task even easier. Edited August 18, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike. I was thinking that it might be possible for the modeller to cut up the body and rebuild it as a 1392, re-using the saddle tanks. But maybe not. If the chassis is correct, a fully scratchbuilt body might be an interesting project.

Ah, now it's interesting that you should say that as one member of the class had a saddle tank which some dimensions suggest might have been used on one of the 1392 rebuilds at some stage.  No need to say which at this point but once the CADs are available I'll see if iI can get a look at them to ascertain if the tank is a separate part because I understand that it will be modelled (mind you things can change hence I'm saying no more at this stage).

[Siberian Snooper]

Ok, so now that Mike the Station Master is back am I any closer to knowing which is/are the closest to 1925 condition, livery excepted.

 

TIA.

 

SS

Edited August 18, 2014 by Siberian Snooper

[rprodgers]

Looking through some books I have it seems unlikely or at least not very common for these locos to have "Great Western" on the saddle tanks.

 

I am sure Russell said that there was only one ST that had this emblem -a late surviving class 850?

 

 

So can I echo what a few have said re the GW version that rather than producing one with the shirt button emblem on it is produced in plain GW green *

 

As it is far easier to add a transfer than leave an unsightly scar otherwise it is a repaint.

 

If not Dave please can you pull one of the production line for me before the shirt button is added ;-)

 

* the earlier darker green would be nice with the safety valve cover painted :-) but I guess I'm asking too much

 

R

Edited August 19, 2014 by rprodgers

[Miss Prism]

RCTS suggests the taller chimneys could have come from the CMR 1392 class, which were withdrawn 1933-36. Such a chimney change might have coincided with but would not have necessitated a formal works session, and could have been done by Newton or Laira.

 

If that chimney changeover window is correct, it would legitimise a shirtbutton appearance on subsequent repaints. One of the class was used on the Newton works duty from 1920, and it could also explain the undated pic of 1364 at Newton with the taller chimney having been fitted but with the old GREAT WESTERN insignia still on the un-repainted tanks. Whether the rest of the class ever carried GREAT WESTERN is a moot point.

[buffalo]

...I am sure Russell said that there was only one ST that had this emblem -a late surviving class 850?...

 

He did, but his caption is misleading. He shows a drawing of 850 class No 1925 with "G W R" on the tanks and says that it was "...applied only for the making of a film in 1947...", and that there is "...no record of any other of these saddle tanks carrying the Company's letters or initials." The word "these" suggests he was talking only about 850s.

 

However, photos in GWRJ 25 show 1925 at Didcot in 1938 and 1939 with GREAT WESTERN and 2007 similarly lettered at Didcot and on the Lambourn branch in 1936 and 1938, but not lettered when in the works in 1931. Both probably come into the category of shed pets, and it is interesting to note the use of the lettering in the shirtbutton era.

 

Of course, none of this helps with the 1361s, other than perhaps to illustrate that shed pets might be decorated in strange ways.

 

Nick

Edited August 19, 2014 by buffalo

[Miss Prism]

1925 repainted in 1947.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

RCTS suggests the taller chimneys could have come from the CMR 1392 class, which were withdrawn 1933-36. Such a chimney change might have coincided with but would not have necessitated a formal works session, and could have been done by Newton or Laira.

 

If that chimney changeover window is correct, it would legitimise a shirtbutton appearance on subsequent repaints. One of the class was used on the Newton works duty from 1920, and it could also explain the undated pic of 1364 at Newton with the taller chimney having been fitted but with the old GREAT WESTERN insignia still on the un-repainted tanks. Whether the rest of the class ever carried GREAT WESTERN is a moot point.

In all of my photographic delvings I have not come across one lettered 'Great Western' but on many of the views such detail on the tanks would be difficult to see. As far as I know the livery options elected have been matched to specific photos but - back to the debate about the engine lettered 'GWR' - almost all such photos are monochrome.

 

Photo angles can make it difficult to clearly differentiate which chimney a loco has and we have to rely on quoted dates in books etc being accurate but 1362 appears to have still had a short chimney in 1937 while 1365 appears to have acquired a tall chimney by 1938.

 

Coming back to comments about 'shed/works' pets 1365, a Newton engine at the time, was considerably muckier than Laira's 1362 had been a year earlier.  The Newton dating however might not be correct but I am fairly sure that the 1937 picture of 1362 has been accurately dated as many other dates in the same book appear, from various detail, to be correct.

 

As mentioned previously there is a possibility that one of the class at some time had a saddle tank which had been on a 1392 but I'm not sure what date that would have been acquired and whether it was from new - I will do some more digging on that one.

[tomparryharry]

Considering that a saddle tank closely follows the boiler, perhaps it's more than just a tank swap?

 

Ian

[unravelled]

1925 repainted in 1947.

Wasn't that a special repaint, for the film "The Chiltern Hundreds"? So it may not have been standard?

 

Dave

[buffalo]

Considering that a saddle tank closely follows the boiler, perhaps it's more than just a tank swap?

 

No, boilers and tanks on these were interchangeable. The GWR produced new boilers for some of the 1392s in 1895 and the new boilers built for the 1361s in 1910 were of the same external dimensions, though had internal differences. The latter type was subsequently also fitted to 1392s. The saddle tanks fitted to 1392s in 1883 were said to have a capacity of 840 gallons, though by the time the 1361s were produced, both were listed as 800 gallons.

 

1392 was withdrawn at the end of 1906 so, perhaps, there was a spare tank available when the 1361s were built?

 

Nick

Edited August 19, 2014 by buffalo

[Miss Prism]

Wasn't that a special repaint, for the film "The Chiltern Hundreds"? So it may not have been standard?

 

It was standard for 1947.

[unravelled]

It was standard for 1947.

Thanks, that's what happens when I refer to books from my childhood! (JNM's  "A further selection of locomotives I have known")

 

Dave