Hornby Somerset and Dorset Coaching Set

[TravisM]

Hi gang, new to this forum but need some information.  Interested in getting Hornby's 3 car S&D set but I'm wondering, up until what period would it have been used?  It looks really good and maybe with Bachmann's Scenecraft Shillingstone set, a small layout could be created.

 

Any help would be great.

 

Julian Sprott

[ROSSPOP]

Assuming they are BR livery, the green would be 1956 to the mid 1960's Julian

 

Regards

 

John

[TravisM]

Thanks John, I think they are in BR (S) green and I was wondering, what type of loco would have hauled the set?

 

Julian Sprott

[RFS]

These sets were allocated to the S&D partly because their large luggage space (and hence reduced seating capacity) wasn't really needed elsewhere, but was not a problem on the lightly-loaded S&D trains.  Set numbers 390-396 were allocated there and would have been crimson-and-cream in the early 1950s being repainted green later in the decade. Set 390 (the one modelled by Hornby) was withdrawn in November 1961 at a time when large numbers of Maunsell coaches were being scrapped due to newer Bulleid and MK1 stock becoming available following the 2-phase Kent Coast electrification scheme in 1959 and 1961.

 

Suitable motive power, amongst other types, would have been BR standard 4MT locos, both 4-6-0 and 2-6-0 types.

Edited August 26, 2014 by RFS

[ROSSPOP]

Just about everything on the S&D.there are photo evidence of Standard class 4. 2-6-4 tanks, LMS. / BR 2P, Standard class 5 and 4, LMS /BR 4F, 7 F and 8 F when other locos failed on busy Saturdays.

 

John

[Combe Martin]

Further to post no 4 above, none of the Maunsell 3 coach sets (no's 390-399)  were used on the S&D after 1961, as they had all been withdrawn by then.  The exact dates are listed in the Oakwood Press book (some were before 1961), but I'm away from home at the moment so can't list them right now.

 

Also BR Std 4 tanks never hauled them as they didn't arrive untill 1963, likewise the Stanier 8Fs 

[Blandford1969]

Is this set still available, or is it just the mega expensive shops looking to make a killing on the popularity of the line?

[andyman7]

It's pretty much sold out everywhere (until a couple of months ago Hamleys still had one in central London); otherwise put a search on ebay and wait until one comes up at a fair price...

[Combe Martin]

You may find one from a retailer at an exhibition (I don't mean a 2nd hand trader).  I've seen quite a few that way, though I havn't  been to an exhibition for a couple of months.

[RFS]

Is this set still available, or is it just the mega expensive shops looking to make a killing on the popularity of the line?

Try here - http://chestermodelcentre.com/products/Hornby/00-Gauge/Coaches/Somerset-Dorset-Maunsell-Coaches-Triple-Pack-R4458 - seems like they still have one in stock at a reasonable price.

[Combe Martin]

Further to my post no 6 above, the withdrawl date for sets 390-399 was 11.61 with the following exceptions. Set 391 4.58, 392 10.59, 393 7.58 and 398 12.61 , however the David Gould book ... Maunsell's SR steam Passenger Stock ... from Oakwood Press, suggests that these sets had all been transferred away by 11.09.61

 

In addition to the above, set 446 (same style) could also have been seen on the S&D between 12.09.60 and withdrawl in 4.61

 

There is also plenty of photographic evidence of the above in the Ivo Peters and other picture books.  

[Caiptean]

Further to my post no 6 above, the withdrawl date for sets 390-399 was 11.61 with the following exceptions. Set 391 4.58, 392 10.59, 393 7.58 and 398 12.61 , however the David Gould book ... Maunsell's SR steam Passenger Stock ... from Oakwood Press, suggests that these sets had all been transferred away by 11.09.61

 

In addition to the above, set 446 (same style) could also have been seen on the S&D between 12.09.60 and withdrawl in 4.61

 

There is also plenty of photographic evidence of the above in the Ivo Peters and other picture books.  

 

Sirs,

 

Evidence indicates set 390 was withdrawn in Crimson Lake and Cream (Blood and Custard) Livery and was never repainted into green.

 

Some BR(S) Crimson Lake & Cream Mk1 coach sets on the SED survived into 1963.

 

Although the Southern Region started repainting into green mid-July 1956 not all coaches were repainted as the colours wore better on the Southern due to ther varnishing cycle.

 

You might find http://www.bloodandcustard.com/interesting.

 

Kind regards,

 

Caiptean

Edited April 28, 2015 by Andy Y
Link reformatted

[Combe Martin]

I'd be interested in what evidence you'r referring to here, because there's a picture of set 390 in green (or shall we say in one colour as it's black and white) on the cover of "The Somerset & Dorset Files No 5" (Irwell Press by Martin Smith) and dated July 1959.  It's a Dick Riley photo.

 

Also in colour and green on page 32 of "On Somerset & Dorset Lines" by Robert Robotham and dated March 1961.

 

And many others too.

 

Sorry, your evidence is wrong !

Edited April 28, 2015 by Combe Martin

[Combe Martin]

Further to my post no 13 just above, I've looked at the quoted website, and yes it infers set 390 was Blood & Custard into 1961 which is wrong, though it does query this with a question mark.   I've also checked my own S&D coach set pictures analysis, and from sets 390-399, only 392 and 393 don't appear in green at all.  The rest (apart from 391, see below) all appear in green in the late '50s early '60s period. 

 

I can find no picture at all of 392, and 393 was still Blood & Custard in May 1957, but was withdrawn around July 1958 so this one may have stayed that way. 

 

The latest picture of set 391 I can find is April 1955 and it's green, but this must have been Southern Railway green as BR Southern Region didn't start using their green till July 1956, it was also green in June 1952.   Given that set 391 was withdrawn around April 1958, would it have been repainted into B&C ?

 

There is also another error in this same section of the Blood & Custard website, it states that the Southern's set numbers were in 6 inch numerals, that's only 2mm in OO gauge.  They weren't, they were 8 or 9 inch numbers.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Combe Martin

[bécasse]

The Southern's standard carriage painting regime was revarnish after 3 years, repaint after 6. However, condition and usage was taken into account as well, and, as I remember well, there did seem to be a special effort in the early-mid-1950s to avoid repainting carriages which were still green unless it was absolutely necessary. Most, if not all, carriages which made it through in green would have been repainted in 1948/49 and I suspect received exactly the same green as the emus repainted at the same time (whether this was the same as the final Southern green is an interesting question given the "tinting" inevitably given by brake-block dust after a while in service), so paint for patch-repainting would have been readily available.

 

What is unlikely is that set 391 made it through from 1948/49 to April 1958 without repainting, unless, of course, someone can show that it was only used on, say, summer Saturdays, and kept under cover at other times. It's photographic shyness might support such a hypothesis, although an April withdrawal date would be unusual for a set used only during the summer months (unless serious defects were uncovered when an overhaul was started).

[colney123]

I have just purchased this set from Hattons along with a 4mt which has sound and weathered by tmc , so that should make a nice train to run.

[tingleytim]

With there being few of the S&D Maunsell sets around to buy, I purchased the following 3 Hornby green coaches separately:  R4305B and R4305D (both BR Maunsell 6 compartment brakes) and R4304A (BR Maunsell composite).  Do these together comprise the same formation as the S&D set and can I run them with confidence on an S&D layout without fear of being told “that’s wrong”?!  Set numbers needed of course but thanks for the advice on withdrawal dates; I shall avoid choosing 392 0r 393.  Anyone know who produces the correct size and style for these set numbers?

[Combe Martin]

With there being few of the S&D Maunsell sets around to buy, I purchased the following 3 Hornby green coaches separately:  R4305B and R4305D (both BR Maunsell 6 compartment brakes) and R4304A (BR Maunsell composite).  Do these together comprise the same formation as the S&D set and can I run them with confidence on an S&D layout without fear of being told “that’s wrong”?!  Set numbers needed of course but thanks for the advice on withdrawal dates; I shall avoid choosing 392 0r 393.  Anyone know who produces the correct size and style for these set numbers?

These coaches are not those that make up what we refer to as one of the S&D sets (ie sets 390-399 and 446). The S&D sets have brake coaches with only 4 passenger compartments and a long brake compartment. They also have low windows on the corridor side. If your brake coaches are 6 compartment brake 2nds (not brake composites, I'm away from home at the moment so it's difficult for me to check) and have double toilet ventilators (Hornby do both double and single ventilator brake coaches), and they and the composite have high windows on the corridor side then you can model set 244 of which there is a photo of it on the S&D in 1961. There are occasional 'shots' of other Maunsel 3 coach sets on the S&D (apart from sets 390-399) but their set no's are not visible.

 

The David Gould book on Maunsel coaches has the coach numbers for all sets. If you havn't got it I can look them up when I get home.

 

Roxey Mouldings do a BR Southern coach transfers sheet of the correct size digits including whole set numbers though I don't think 244 is among them. You'd have to apply the individual digits. The sheet also contains coach number digits too.

 

Don't buy the Modelmaster transfers sheet for these, they're too small (2mm). And likewise don't buy the Fox transfers sheet either, they're too big (4mm). You need 3mm transfers for the set number.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Combe Martin

[tingleytim]

Thanks CM.  Very helpful.

[Kempenfelt]

Tim,

 

Following up Combe Martin's response I can confirm that it is possible to portray set 244 using the Hornby coaches, but unfortunately to be completely correct you can only use 2 out of the 3 coaches you have purchased. The suitable coaches that you have obtained are R4304B and R4305B.

 

R4304D is slightly different to your other coaches in that it represents a diagram with only 1 lav vent, whereas the 2 suitable coaches mentioned above have 2 lav vents. It's a minor difference so you may be able to live with it, alternatively you want to pick up another R4305A or R4305B to complete the set. It is noted that set 244 was originally a 4 coach set, I believe that this was reduced to a 3 coach set however I can't recall the date off the top of my head.

 

Hope this helps

 

 

Kind Regards

 

 

Paul

[Karhedron]

Just googling images of the S&D will turn up quite a few photos. Here is set 392 in 1959.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Masbury_Summit_2121861_732ab59f.jpg

[tingleytim]

Thanks for the replies CM and Paul.  Delayed response from me - modelling has had to go on the back burner for some while.
Set 244.  Can anyone recall where to find the 1961 S&D photo of this set?
Other Maunsell sets.  Are these unidentified sets like set 244?
David Gould’s book. I don’t have it but would be content to use No. 244 so don’t need any other numbers.
I shall continue to run the coaches I have for now but will keep on the lookout for Hornby’s R4458 set, though several internet searches have produced nothing at all.  Will keep eyes open at shows.
Cheers.
Tim.

[Combe Martin]

Set 244.  Can anyone recall where to find the 1961 S&D photo of this set?

Other Maunsell sets.  Are these unidentified sets like set 244?

David Gould’s book. I don’t have it but would be content to use No. 244 so don’t need any other numbers.

 

The photo of set 244 on the S&D is in one of the Somerset & Dorset Files publications by Martin Smith.  I'm away from home at the moment so cant look up which one for you.

 

The photos of other similar sets are in other books (and I've got a lot), but in all cases the set numbers cant be seen.

 

The David Gould book is useful for finding the exact coach numbers within the sets, as if your putting set 244 together you'll need to renumber each coach. 

[tingleytim]

Found it!  Set 244 appears on p6 of S&D Files No. 4.  The number is very clear.  Date 4 Feb 1961.  44560 is pulling it out of Bath on the 3.20 to Templecombe. 

[JZ]

I've been listing some of the more unusual workings from Ivo Peters' books to use on Gurney Slade. One I found was a 9F on the 3car Maunsell set.