Jump to content
 

Postwar GWR Hall liveries


Recommended Posts

Hi there,

 

I'm in the early stages of building a postwar GWR layout (set in 1946/7) and one of the things I'm working on is getting a vaguely representative mix of loco liveries. It's obviously tricky to do this given the relative lack of photos from the period and the generally grimy state of the locos at the time.

 

In terms of Halls, I've got a couple of Bachmann examples reliveried into Hawksworth lined green, even though it seems not many made it into this livery. But what about those Halls that didn't? I'd like to represent one or two of these but have a couple of queries:

 

 

1) Did those Halls that remained in wartime black also retain their cab window sheeting or was this removed fairly quickly after the war without the loco necessarily being repainted, meaning there were Halls running in black with glazed cab windows?

 

2) Were some non-oil burning Halls with 4,000 gallon tenders painted into plain Hawksworth green with 'G crest W' on the tender? I came across the following photo recently and although the description says Ripon Hall is in lined Hawksworth green, I can't see any sign of the lining:

http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=863

(I'm away from my books at the moment, but am I right in recalling that O.S. Nock's book on Stars, Castles and Kings has photos of a Star and a King in unlined green with 'G crest W' on the tender as outshopped, I think, in 1946 - is it possible that some locos that were supposed to be lined were being turned out in unlined green because of labour shortages and the pressing need for a maintenance backlog to be cleared?)

 

Any more informed insights on this, or any pointers to photos which might help, will be greatly appreciated!

 

Ben

Link to post
Share on other sites

From what I've read, there was no real consistency in what was considered "express locomotive", so Halls could be both lined and unlined - I would guess that there could be a mix of GWR, and G crest W, though I could not say with any certainty. I'd also allow for a mix of Collett and Hawksworth tenders. You're still likely to see wartime black paint jobs. And any locomotive not serviced since before the war would likely carry the Collett Shirtbutton monogram, also as many engines did not see the monogram, it's entirely possible locomotives nearing service time could still be found in Great (crest) Western finish. As with anything, if you can find a dated photograph of something, then it would be allowed - especially if you model that particular locomotive.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I woul say is that most Halls repainted after the war seem to have had G(crest)W rather than GWR. The only loco I have found a photo of with GWR on the tender is the well-known shot of Garth Hall with a 3,500 gallon tender after conversion to oil firing.

 

If other Halls received GWR, there does not seem much photographic evdience.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Karhedron, like you, Garth Hall is the only Hall I've seen with GWR on the tender, which seems to relate to the fact that it was unusual (unique?) among post-war Halls in having a 3,500 rather than 4,000 gallon tender.

 

In terms of the 'Great crest Western' and 'shirtbutton' brandings, I've not seen any photos of either of these on any GWR 4-6-0 postwar - it would certainly be great to know if anyone does know of such a shot.

 

Does anyone else think that Ripon Hall appears to be in plain rather than lined green in the photo I posted the link for?

 

Ben

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rippon Hall does appear to be in unlined livery but I would be careful of drawing conclusions from such a low resolution image.

 

Pitchford Hall has carried unlined green with G(crest)W but I do not know if this is historically accurate or preservation only.

 

http://locoyard.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/2011-great-central-railway-loughborough-gwr-49xx-hall-class-4953-pitchford-hall.jpg?w=700

Edited by Karhedron
Link to post
Share on other sites

Rippon Hall does appear to be in unlined livery but I would be careful of drawing conclusions from such a low resolution image.Pitchford Hall has carried unlined green with G(crest)W but I do not know if this is historically accurate or preservation only.http://locoyard.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/2011-great-central-railway-loughborough-gwr-49xx-hall-class-4953-pitchford-hall.jpg?w=700

Thanks Karhedron, that's a good point about the quality of the image. Does anyone know where Swindon's official photos of ex-works locos are held? If they're accessible, it might be worth having a trawl through shots from the latter wartime and immediate postwar periods to get some more concrete evidence of the range of liveries being turned out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also consider tender swops that produced variations between engine and tender

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141429392891?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Mike Wiltshire

Thanks Mike, that's a great shot. It would be interesting to know what year it's from as if it's postwar, it would give some indication of how long sheeted cab windows were retained. I'm guess both the loco and tender are in wartime black, although the tender looks to have been painted or at least cleaned more recently than the loco.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Karhedron, that's a good point about the quality of the image. Does anyone know where Swindon's official photos of ex-works locos are held? If they're accessible, it might be worth having a trawl through shots from the latter wartime and immediate postwar periods to get some more concrete evidence of the range of liveries being turned out.

Steam museum in Swindon has some works photos. The thing to remember is that not all items (new or passing through the works) were photographed. The works photos were intended to be representative samples but are not comprehensive. You may get lucky and find what you are looking for but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

The post-war years were times of austerity. Film was expensive and man-power to mend the run-down railways was in short supply. That is one of the reasons why the twilight years of the grouping era and the early years of nationalisation remain poorly photographed, in spite of the fascinating mish-mash of liveries around.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • RMweb Gold

If I could use this thread to ask the same of any photos of the G badge W livery as appied to Castles postwar would be most helpful too.Collett tender engines only please.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2) Were some non-oil burning Halls with 4,000 gallon tenders painted into plain Hawksworth green with 'G crest W' on the tender? I came across the following photo recently and although the description says Ripon Hall is in lined Hawksworth green, I can't see any sign of the lining:

http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=863

Ben

 

Further to this question I posed in the original post, I've come across this photo of a Hall c. 1947:

http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-4-6-0s/i-NjgVr4M

While there's some grime in evidence, it doesn't look quite thick enough to completely obscure any lining so I think the livery might be unlined green. I'm starting to wonder if wartime black on Halls was initially replaced with unlined green, with lined green only starting to reach some Halls towards the very end of the GWR (I seem to recall that the GWRJ article on wartime and postwar GWR liveries lists at least one original Hall that was recorded in lined green).

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Following Karhedron's suggestion above, I got in touch with the library at STEAM and made use of their historical enquiries service to see what photos they had of Halls in post-1942 liveries. They found a number of good shots and posted them online.

 

One of them is clearly of wartime black livery, with cabside window plated over:

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4952-peplow-hall/print/10560363.html

 

There is also a shot of a modified Hall in postwar lined livery:

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6976-graythwaite-hall/print/10560219.html

 

But the rest appear to be in unlined livery. It is of course hard to tell if these liveries are black or green but Clyffe Hall in particular appears more like green than black:

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-5951-clyffe-hall/print/10560369.html

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-5944-ickenham-hall/print/10560367.html

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4967-shirenewton-hall/print/10560365.html

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6925-hackness-hall/print/10560227.html

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4905-barton-hall-august-1947/print/10560225.html

 

STEAM also found a nice shot showing the 'G crest W' tender lettering on a Collett 4,000g tender:

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/4000-gallon-locomotive-tender-showing-new-lettering-february-1945/print/10560223.html

 

So some nice shots but no smoking gun proving my suspicion that non-oil burning Halls (and Saints and Stars) were also painted unlined green postwar until the reintroduction of lining to these classes in late 1947. I will try contacting the NRM to see if they have any more definitive photos, such as some nice clear ex works shots in which it's easier to tell the difference between green and black liveries.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Following Karhedron's suggestion above, I got in touch with the library at STEAM and made use of their historical enquiries service to see what photos they had of Halls in post-1942 liveries. They found a number of good shots and posted them online.

 

One of them is clearly of wartime black livery, with cabside window plated over:

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4952-peplow-hall/print/10560363.html

 

There is also a shot of a modified Hall in postwar lined livery:

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6976-graythwaite-hall/print/10560219.html

 

But the rest appear to be in unlined livery. It is of course hard to tell if these liveries are black or green but Clyffe Hall in particular appears more like green than black:

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-5951-clyffe-hall/print/10560369.html

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-5944-ickenham-hall/print/10560367.html

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4967-shirenewton-hall/print/10560365.html

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-6925-hackness-hall/print/10560227.html

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4905-barton-hall-august-1947/print/10560225.html

 

STEAM also found a nice shot showing the 'G crest W' tender lettering on a Collett 4,000g tender:

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/4000-gallon-locomotive-tender-showing-new-lettering-february-1945/print/10560223.html

 

So some nice shots but no smoking gun proving my suspicion that non-oil burning Halls (and Saints and Stars) were also painted unlined green postwar until the reintroduction of lining to these classes in late 1947. I will try contacting the NRM to see if they have any more definitive photos, such as some nice clear ex works shots in which it's easier to tell the difference between green and black liveries.

 

Some Halls - as well as some Saints and Stars - were most definitely painted in unlined green in the post-war era.  If you look in Tony Sterndales book 'Great Western Pictorial No.3' published by Wild Swan, you will find examples of all three classes painted thus.  The Kenneth Leech book 'Portraits of Western 4-6 -0s' also has photos of some engines without lining - No 2912 St Ambrose being one example that immediately comes to mind.  For a period after nationalisation engines emerged from Swindon with out any signs of ownership at all and later they had British Railways in full in GW style lettering - see 'Early Years of Western Region Steam' by PM Alexander, again published by Wild Swan, which has a photo of No 4017 Knight of Liege at Bath in 1948.  Of course this will require you to refer to an actual book in an actual library rather than relying on the internet - it's by no means all online!

 

Gerry

Link to post
Share on other sites

As GWR locos were serviced on a mileage basis and from memory this was about 90 000 miles  a simple job like the Halls would have been in works every 15 to 18 months for at least an intermediate overhaul, at which swapping steel sheets for cabside windows would have been quite simple and straight forward.

 

Painting would probably have had to wait for a heavy overhaul which would involve a boiler change where a lot of boiler cladding and cab panels would have been disturbed and would need repainting. 

 

One or two LMS locos survived the war in pre war red but they seemed to work on the basis of if it ain't broke don't fix it rather than any logical system of preventative maintenance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...
  • RMweb Premium

Following Karhedron's suggestion above, I got in touch with the library at STEAM and made use of their historical enquiries service to see what photos they had of Halls in post-1942 liveries. They found a number of good shots and posted them online.

 

One of them is clearly of wartime black livery, with cabside window plated over:

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/hall-class-locomotive-no-4952-peplow-hall/print/10560363.html

 

 

If this was a black engine would it not have the yellow "GWR" insignia?

Edited by M.I.B
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Thanks.  

 

So were the G**W logos different to the lined green ones in the same way that GWR for the black engines was different?

Link to post
Share on other sites

If this was a black engine would it not have the yellow "GWR" insignia?

Not necessarily - my understanding is that the hand painted yellow GWR was mainly applied at works other than Swindon as a result of the wartime shortage of shaded transfers.

Cheers,

Ray.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...