RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted December 9, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) Is there any photographic evidence of a Hall with a G (crest) W 3,500 gallon tender livery? I have seen a few pictures of Halls with 3,500 gallon tenders in the post war era but the engine/tender are too dirty to see the livery.Can you advise on the sources please?Would definitely like to do a 3500gl tendered Hall... Edited December 9, 2016 by The Fatadder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted December 10, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2016 Can you advise on the sources please? Would definitely like to do a 3500gl tendered Hall... Great Railway Western Journal No 40 page 446 with a picture of "4905 Barton Hall coupled to a 3,500 gallon tender, believed to be No. 2233 (to which she was coupled from October 1947 to July 1949). Photo by R.H.G. Simpson" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted December 10, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2016 The most interesting post war Hall shot was brought up on this post some time ago: 6944, in black with a lined green tender. If you had told me that halls were ever painted black 5 years ago, I would not have beleived you, let alone that some Halls ran without names for some time, and top that off with a colour mismatched tender......... But as was pointed out earlier - post war, labour and funds short, it really was make-do and mend. This sort of thing is what I find makes post WW2 GWR the most interesting period for me to model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 Having finally found a copy of GWRJ issue 7 which contains a list of 4-6-0s repainted into wartime black, it is now clear that my model of Eynsham Hall is very likely to be incorrect (the logic being that given it was repainted into Black in 1944, its unlikely to have received a repaint into lined green 3 years later and would likely still be in black. So that leaves me needing to find another Hall to have in lined green (or to attempt to remove the lining, which will be tricky in this case given the loco has been re varnished) So far I have looked at the internet without success trying to find a Laira or Newton Abbot Hall upon which the livery is clearly lined green (or failing that plain green) without success. So far the only one I have been able to confirm is 4983 which Colour Rail has a photo in 1946 clearly showing it still in black with plated over cab side windows. If anyone has seen a photo of 6934 that would be particularly useful to confirm the other NA hall.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 What about 4966 Shakenhust Hall as an option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 What about 4966 Shakenhust Hall as an option.Would need to see a photo of it in green given it went black in 44, 6949 may also be black depending on if it got a coat of paint when converted to oil (assuming given a 1942 build date it would be black)The rest who knows without a good photo (which I I am lacking). Might take a couple of books with me when I head to the Seville office tomorrow and do some old fashioned research. I keep thinking I need a spreadsheet detailing all the captions in the locket book etc so I can quickly check.... Come to think of it, that might be a very useful resource.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 The Irwell books are superb but all three would be around 75 sheets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 The Irwell books are superb but all three would be around 75 sheets. I know, a lot of money for one or two useful photos... if anyone has a copy how detailed are the notes on liveries, tenders, works visits etc?shame the local library don't have a copy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 I know, a lot of money for one or two useful photos... if anyone has a copy how detailed are the notes on liveries, tenders, works visits etc? shame the local library don't have a copy! Libraries can usually source books from other libraries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 I know, a lot of money for one or two useful photos... if anyone has a copy how detailed are the notes on liveries, tenders, works visits etc? shame the local library don't have a copy! The loco register in these books doesn't mention livery at a certain time.Just shed ,works visits and tender allocations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 The loco register in these books doesn't mention livery at a certain time.Just shed ,works visits and tender allocations. Works visits at least will tell you if it's green or black, and I guess depending on how late in 46 or 47 the visit was should give an indication as to lining..... Dam, now you are making me want the books even more! All that for 2Halls and a mod hall planed for the layout..... Libraries can usually source books from other libraries.Worth a shot I guess... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 If anyone has seen a photo of 6934 that would be particularly useful to confirm the other NA hall.... This one wasn't named till March '48 Rich ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2017 This one wasn't named till March '48 Rich ! I do like nameless GW 460s... Though again I'm guessing lining an no name is very unlikely. If I can ask a favour of anyone with said book, did 4925 have a major works visit in 46 or 47, at which it may have gained a repaint? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 81C Posted February 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2017 4925 was in various workshops throughout 46-47 2/3/46 Swindon works Light repair 9/7/47 Didcot shops Running repair 17/10/47 Newton Abbot works Light repair Repaints I believe were not done on R & L repairs, again dated photo's are required. BTW Albert Hall 4983 was a Newton engine 4/39 - 4/50. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2017 4925 was in various workshops throughout 46-47 2/3/46 Swindon works Light repair 9/7/47 Didcot shops Running repair 17/10/47 Newton Abbot works Light repair Repaints I believe were not done on R & L repairs, again dated photo's are required. BTW Albert Hall 4983 was a Newton engine 4/39 - 4/50. Thanks, more likely than not still in Black then. Time to buy another Hall I think (and to keep looking out for photos of the NA or Laira Halls to see if one of them was in lined green... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 In response to Fatadder's queries above, the research on postwar GWR Hall liveries I commissioned with STEAM and the NRM turned up no shots of Collett Halls in postwar GWR lined green - all the shots identified were either wartime black or postwar plain green. I've got the first volume of the Book of the Halls and that seems to show the same as far as I can tell. As has been realised above, this book also gives you some clue about likely post war GWR liveries on particular Halls as it includes the service histories of each so you can see if a particular Hall had major work post mid-late 1945 when I think Halls started being painted plain green rather than black. From memory, the excellent GWR Journal article on postwar liveries in vol 7 does mention a Collett Hall, in the 59xx series I think, that was observed in lined green postwar but i seem to recall that I found a photo of it exworks in 1948 (I think in Tony Sterndale's excellent Great Western Pictorial no.3, sorry I can't check as I'm away from my books at the moment) and while it was lined, it didn't have any branding on the tender so I think it was only lined in early BR days rather than GWR days. So while Swindon issued a directive in mid-1947 to line Halls, I'm starting to think it was only the 47-built modified Halls that got that treatment in GWR days. I would be delighted if someone did manage to turn up a shot of a Collett Hall in postwar GWR lined green, especially as I got a couple of Bachmann Halls expertly altered to this livery by Glenn (Mattingley Custom) of this parish. Given the mid-47 lining instruction, I tell myself it's what Swindon would have wanted, even if they didn't get around to doing it in real life. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2017 I think I will be getting the paints out and getting my Bachmann one into plain green after all, on the plus side at least it gets rid of the awful Bachmann lining! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2017 From memory, the excellent GWR Journal article on postwar liveries in vol 7 does mention a Collett Hall, in the 59xx series I think, that was observed in lined green postwar but i seem to recall that I found a photo of it exworks in 1948 (I think in Tony Sterndale's excellent Great Western Pictorial no.3, sorry I can't check as I'm away from my books at the moment) and while it was lined, it didn't have any branding on the tender so I think it was only lined in early BR days rather than GWR days. So while Swindon issued a directive in mid-1947 to line Halls, I'm starting to think it was only the 47-built modified Halls that got that treatment in GWR days. The photo in GWRJ no.7 is of 6990 dated 28/11/1954. it is in full postwar GWR lined livery (with lining going around the cab windows) and has G crest W on the tender, this will be another good one to check out the works dates on I guess as not only could it be the best reference we have yet to a lined Collett Hall post war, one would assume any hall which visited the works after this date would also be lined... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 The photo in GWRJ no.7 is of 6990 dated 28/11/1954. it is in full postwar GWR lined livery (with lining going around the cab windows) and has G crest W on the tender, this will be another good one to check out the works dates on I guess as not only could it be the best reference we have yet to a lined Collett Hall post war, one would assume any hall which visited the works after this date would also be lined... 6990 also had full lining when it took part in the Exchange Trials in 1948. Annoyingly the tender is out of shot in this view. This shot (also from the exchange trials) is much poorer but shows 3 blobs on the tender which I would guess are "G crest W". Sadly there is no hope of making out the tender lining details. Although I appreciate none of this helps in the least for Collett halls. Having said all that, if a picture does eventually surface of one, I would like to redo my Dapol hall in post-war livery too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I came across the following photo recently and although the description says Ripon Hall is in lined Hawksworth green, I can't see any sign of the lining: http://www.railuk.info/gallery/notes/getimage.php?id=863 Going way back to the start of the thread, there is a much high quality version of that image here which confirms that Ripon Hall was indeed unlined green. https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/7829554750 I don't know if this was standard for pre-war Halls in the late 40s but it would not be entirely surprising. Swindon only photographed some of what passed through but those that did seem to have been typical references for the class. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) So looking at that second photo it had a Hawksworth tender for the exchange trials (unless the phone screen is playing tricks on me). Yet in 54 it had changed to a g w branded Collett tender. What was the source of the 2nd photo,l? Shame it's not higher resolution... Hopefully we will be in luck and a very kind person will be able to share some technical details on works visits etc. Try and pin down exactly when it was done.... Thinking more and more that I want the book, given how complex these Halls seem to be. In the mean time hopefully the GWR book photo database project will come through with the missing photo that we are searching for..... Edited February 7, 2017 by The Fatadder 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 So looking at that second photo it had a Hawksworth tender for the exchange trials (unless the phone screen is playing tricks on me). Yet in 54 it had changed to a g w branded Collett tender. What was the source of the 2nd photo,l? Shame it's not higher resolution... Yes, Witherslack Hall had a Hawksworth tender during the Exchange Trials (presumably its original one). The photo of 'Witherslack Hall' was taken near the end of its first up test run with the 8.25 a.m. from Manchester to Marylebone by J C Flemons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted February 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2017 It seems highly probable that few ,if any, Collet Halls received GWR lining post war Am I correct in assuming that in 1938-9 all Halls then in service would be lined and bearing either Great Western or Shirt Button livery? If so, I would have expected (despite lack of photographic evidence) that some would have survived to 1947 bearing their pre war livery ......undoubtedly heavily work stained. If not this would imply that every Hall built pre-war went into the Workshops between 1939 and 1947 and was painted Black or Full Green. Is this likely? I honestly have no idea. Over the years I have carefully rebranded my Halls (4, all lined) with GxxW on the tender, so that they all bore the "correct"` livery for 1947-8 This thread and a discussion on ANTB have shown me that this was a very foolish assumption. So I have embarked on a repainting/renaming programme aiming to finish with 2 all green, 1 black and 1 lined with shirt button (weathered|!) I would appreciate any advice. REgards from Vancouver 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2017 Not easy modelling the post war GWR is it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) The photo in GWRJ no.7 is of 6990 dated 28/11/1954. it is in full postwar GWR lined livery (with lining going around the cab windows) and has G crest W on the tender, this will be another good one to check out the works dates on I guess as not only could it be the best reference we have yet to a lined Collett Hall post war, one would assume any hall which visited the works after this date would also be lined...6990 was built in 1948 and is a modified Hall. I read somewhere that it was given a G W branded tender from one of the 1947-build modified Halls for the purpose of the 48 exchange trials, seemingly in a last stand of company pride by its former servants.T The GWRJ 7 reference to a 'unmodified' Collett Hall in lined green was towards the end of the main article text, but as I mentioned above I'm pretty sure I found a photo of said Hall in ex works lined green in 1948 but without G W branding, suggesting the lining on this Hall wasn't seen in service in GW days. Edited February 7, 2017 by BenL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.4e02f7a4ae479bf99543dba02250d189.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now