DCC Concepts AD S8fx Solenoid Decoders

[Mallard60022]

Anyone got experience of this? On paper it looks great for a hopeless case like me.

P

Edited October 6, 2014 by Mallard60022

[Tricky Dicky]

My only concern is the on board polarity switching and LED switching as the only sure fire way of knowing a point has moved is by linking a switch to the tie bar. If all the on board LED switching tells you that you have activated a switch to move the point then there could be problems. I may be wrong and admit I have not read the installation instructions but I cannot see how it detects actual movement of the point.

 

Richard

[arff999]

Nothing wrong with old ones. worked well I have 6 on my layout, looks like we will have to pay a lot more for something that was not needed, also understand the old version ads8 in now no longer available, as the post above says, No at lot of good switching frogs and route indication from a decoder best to use the point its self this way you know its moved.

Just my point of view.

JOHN

[Nicholas]

I have just purchased and installed one of these, what a lovely bit of kit, does everything it says it does and is very easy to install. Highly recommended.

[Mallard60022]

Just what I wanted to know Nick - thanks. What do you use with it for operation?

Phil.

[Nicholas]

I use an ESu ECoS 5000 and side mounted peco points as its in the fiddle yard

Nick

[john dew]

I have just purchased and installed one of these, what a lovely bit of kit, does everything it says it does and is very easy to install. Highly recommended.

Thats good to know Nicholas because thats exactly what I want to do....albeit with Lenz........two are on their way from Liverpool.....they seem perfect for retrofits and replacement for duff legacy peco switches

[Mallard60022]

Thanks chaps. I was thinking of using them for my fiddle yard as well but conventional DC powering and whatever motors I can get hold of for Peco pointwork.

P

[Tony_S]

A quick query for those of you who already have one of these devices and have wired it up to a DCC layout. I've just got one and was going to connect up exactly as specified on the leaflet when I started thinking (not always a good thing)

The instruction leaflet shows three wires for the frog switching. As two of these are the track or bus wires, these already exist on the board as the DCC supply. The 4 dcc supply connectors are paralleled and only  one is required to be connected. So  I think I could use the  unused DCC supply terminals looped to the frog outer terminals and only need one wire to the frog.

Can anyone think why this would be "wrong"? The turnouts will all be in one power district (I only have one anyway). 

Thanks

Tony

[davepallant]

The unit does not necessarily know which way round you have got the point set to switch so if it switched the frog output between the two DCC inputs then the chance is it will be wrong 50% of the time. You need to be able to set which way round the DCC feed into the frog relay is to match the rest of the track around the point.

 

There is however a bigger problem than that with the ADS-8fx decoder and that is that it seems to forget the position of the frog relays if the DCC cuts out for whatever reason. Once the DCC comes back up the point will stay in the same position but the frog relays all drop back to the 'off' position. This means that any of your points set to the on position when the DCC went off will have their frogs set to the wrong polarity. The only way out of the problem is to cycle all of the points to off and then set them again when the power comes back up. Difficult, slow and noisy!

 

The long term way out of this problem is to run a second DCC bus around the layout and have a separate power section for the track and accessories so that if the DCC is shorted then the ADS-8fxs are still powered but this is precisely what the instructions tell you that you do not have to do!

 

I've given up using the frog relays for frog powering for now and have fallen back on the Seep solenoid switch contacts. At least I know they always follow the point position.

 

Dave

Edited November 23, 2014 by davepallant

[oldspotter]

Hi Dave

 

Interesting problem with DCC power short.

How does the ADS8fx react to switching off the DCC system at the end of a session mid-way through a timetabled "day"?

Does it remember all the positions of points and relays when powering up next session?

 

Just starting to wire up so your input would be most welcome.

 

Dave W

[BoD]

I have just bought one of these and was going to experiment this weekend.

I'm a bit disappointed that the polarity of frogs may be incorrect after every short or, even worse, every time I'm beginning a session.

Does this mean that you would have to physically move the point blades each time or use the dcc system to reset them (remembering which way the decoder defaults the polarity to) and then recycle the power again? Is this normal in other decoders that electronically switch frog polarity? If so, what a pain and what a major design flaw.

[davepallant]

Hi,

 

The polarity of the frog relays always reverts to the 'off' position when the power comes back on. The point is left where it was when the power went off. So for whatever reason the power went off, any point that had been set 'on' before the power went off will have the frog the wrong way. The only way to get the point and frog to be in sync when the power comes on is to either set all points to 'off' before powering off or cycle the points that could be wrong when the power comes on.

 

For now I've carried on using the Seep PM1 auxiliary switches where I need to power frogs and in a couple of places used Frog juicers which I already had. 

 

I'm using the decoders on N gauge and I've realised that to guard against any frog relay being the wrong way, for any reason, I would need to cut the two rails between the frog and the blades on every one of my points! Using the Seep switch set up properly the switch can 'augment' the blades by paralleling the blade contacts. (On OO that is the standard way of DCCing a Peco point anyway as the point is designed with the cuttable wire in the rails between frog and blades.)

 

Dave

Edited December 23, 2014 by davepallant

[BoD]

Yes, zep75, on rereading my above post it seems a bit confusing.

 

I thought perhaps that once the blades and frog polarity got out of sync they would remain that way - if you threw the mismatched blades the polarity would switch too, so remaining out of sync. I envisaged having to check that each set of point blades was set to match the default setting of frog polarity before re powering. However my decoder arrived, I experimented and it only needs the point to be thrown either way for the polarity to correct itself. Still a bit of a pain but better than what I originally thought might be the case.

 

I'm not sure that that is any less confusing to be honest.

 

I wonder if it is worth creating a dummy route that throws all of the points once to reset them.

[feiler]

GOOD EVENING ALL,

I wonder if anyone can help a doddering 83 year old who is trying to set up a small layout.

It's only 6x4 plus a couple of extra very small boards.  I am using Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance for control and am trying to put addresses into a COBALT ADS-8FX (so far with no luck). I understand that 1. I switch the controller to MAIN TRACK. 2. I press the ACCESSORY button on the controller. 3. Having selected 5 as my first address,I switch the appropriate segment of the COBALT to "Set" and type in the number 5.   4. I then switch the COBALT to "run".. What have I missed?

YOURS AYE

Peter Feiler

[Ray H]

You need to operate the point between your 3 & 4 (I think)

[feiler]

Hello Ray,

Thank you for your speedy and interesting reply. There is a sentence on the supplied literature which says ""Complete the operation totally - from 'select address' to 'changing the point'. I will investigate further.

Peter

[feiler]

Hello Ray,

It seems as though what you told me was correct. The latest from DCC CONCEPTS is that on completion of my step 3, the figure 1 must be pressed before pressing RUN.

Many thanks for your useful information. Now all cleared up.

Yours aye

Peter Feiler

[Mallard60022]

Almost three years on and I'm getting to where I try or sell the Unit.

So, let's get this clear. I will be running DCC for track only and I plan to run all my pointwork from DC source for at least the time being. This means my Unit will be run (say) from an independant DC input and so no DCC short should affect it; that's correct isn' it? Thaqt would cure one of the difficulties of memory as discussed above.

Also, a run of 16 points has to be 8 + 8 (in tandem). Is that the only option? The destructions say you can connect 2 solenoids to each output, so that will operate 2 points at the same time. However if I ran the two sets of wires from each solenoid output to a choc bloc, could I then operate each point independantly in some way. Can't work that out....sorry?

I've got several cross overs that require a double point change so I can do that but could have a few oulets spare; that's why I'm asking this question. 

many thanks and as you can tell I work very quickly indeed....NOT!

Phil

[davepallant]

Almost three years on and I'm getting to where I try or sell the Unit.

So, let's get this clear. I will be running DCC for track only and I plan to run all my pointwork from DC source for at least the time being. This means my Unit will be run (say) from an independant DC input and so no DCC short should affect it; that's correct isn' it? Thaqt would cure one of the difficulties of memory as discussed above.

Also, a run of 16 points has to be 8 + 8 (in tandem). Is that the only option? The destructions say you can connect 2 solenoids to each output, so that will operate 2 points at the same time. However if I ran the two sets of wires from each solenoid output to a choc bloc, could I then operate each point independantly in some way. Can't work that out....sorry?

I've got several cross overs that require a double point change so I can do that but could have a few oulets spare; that's why I'm asking this question. 

many thanks and as you can tell I work very quickly indeed....NOT!

Phil

Hi Phil,

If you want to trigger the points using DCC messages then the DCC controller has to be the power input to the board since it does not have a seperate dcc signal input and power input. If you power the board from DC then I think the only option is to control the point motors using the momentary switch inputs.

 

If you wire two point solenoids together at a choc block then a single output will control the two together simultaneously. So your crossovers will operate off of a single output. I have numerous pairs of SEEP motors operating together off of a single ADS-8fx output. The two solenoids have to move at the same time. So in a fiddle yard you might be able to operate the points at both ends of a siding simultaneously with a single output (within a reasonable distance - maybe a couple of metres). Also if you have points either side of a splitting point at the entrance to the fiddle yard you might be able to design the point layout to operate a point on the left side and a point on the right side simultaneously to reduce the number of outputs needed. The left right splitting point will need an output for itself.

 

Note that I am writing from the point of view of not using the ADS-8fx frog relays. If you are controlling two points in a crossover then you will have to rely on the points or mechanical switches to power the frogs since the two frogs will usually be opposite polarity.

 

Dave

[Butler Henderson]

Just bought one of these and struggling to fathom the issue with the frog switching relay going out of sync. These must be latching relays which are only triggered when the module receives an instruction to change the point so if they are resetting when power is lost that implies something like a voltage spike  is affecting the module. Does the problem persist if dcc bus terminators are installed?

 

One thing the rather limited instructions fail to indicate is which way round the polarity is on the outputs - is the common negative or positive?

[john dew]

Afraid so. There is a new improved version which now has frog polarity memory.....costs a few pounds more.

 

These are the work arounds I have used over the last couple of years to try and overcome the frustrating issue with the unit you and I have

 

(1) Adjust the input wiring for each point so that the polarity defaults the normal or most used position

 

(2) Try and remember to reset the point to normal after a train has passed over the point.....as per the prototype

 

(3) I have a switch on the RR&Co virtual switchboard that throws all the points connected to the ADS fx......I click on this every time I power up at the start of a session or after a short........well that's the theory !

 

If you have just bought the unit I would explore the possibility of upgrading to the newer version with memory

 

Regards

 

John

Edited August 27, 2017 by john dew

[davepallant]

Concerning the polarity question you generally do not need to worry about polarity. The common output connects to the common connection on the solenoid and the two other outputs connect to either end of the solenoid. You may then need to reverse the two solenoid wires if the point does not move in the direction you want. Once you have the point moving the way you want then you can check the frog and reverse the frog feed wires if necessary.

[davepallant]

As John Dew points out there is a new AD-s2sx which has point position memory. Although this new one should always power a frog correctly and is capable of driving two solenoids it can't power the two frogs on a crossover with one channel as I mentioned in a previous reply since they are opposing polarities. This is clear in the instructions and to get the frog drives on a crossover you have to use two channels for the two points and give them the same address.

[john dew]

The issue isnt with the polarity of the solenoid point motor rather it relates to switching the polarity of the track feed to the point frog

 

Cheers