Which one is right ! ?

[Graham Walters]

I'm interested to know which one of these is the "more prototypical"

 

First I have a Bachmann  Collett composite coach GWR shirt button

 

 

I know the blue markings are correct on the bogies, but I'm wondering about the grey roof, and the overall detail on the roof.

 

the reason for the doubt being, I have just taken possession of this, which is supposed to be a Collett Restaurant car, yet we have a different coloured roof, and no colour on the bogies.

 

The restaurant car has been sold to me as a Hornby version, the only markings I can find on the bottom are "Made in Great Britain".

 

 

 

[chrisf]

I'm not convinced that the blue markings on the Bachmann Collett are correct.  The tops of the axle boxes were painted blue at one stage but not the other bits!  As for the roof, it would have been almost any shade of grey you care to name at some stage in its life.

 

The restaurant car's roof would not have been white for long.  Others know much more about paint chemistry than I do but unless protected from the elements it would darken quite quickly.

 

Chris 

[neilrh]

I believe that shirtbutton livery rooves would be white, and obviously progressively more grime covered. Darker rooves were applied during WWII onwards, but then you'd be moving through WWII austerity brown, and into the Hawksworth era Great Crest Western pattern.

[petethemole]

The restaurant car is indeed Hornby. The roofs were white lead based paint that soon weathered by oxidisation to light grey, before becoming progressively darker with soot, dirt and age.

[Adrian Wintle]

The dark grey roof on the Collett C77 all-third (the body is a third, despite the markings) marks it as post 1941 (when the white roof would have been repainted to reduce visibility). That diagram dates from 1938. The roof detail is correct. If anything these coaches sit a shade low.

 

The Hornby Collett H33 composite restaurant has a different pattern of bogie (7' vs 9' on the C77) and is a much earlier coach (4 built in 1925). These coaches were rebuilt with sliding ventilators in 1939, so this represents a coach prior to that rebuild. The layout of the roof is correct, but it can benefit from replacing the moulded bumps with shell vents (like the C77) and replacing the moulded hand grabs with wire. This diagram is actually a shade taller than the C77, but the model does sit a shade high. The underframe on this is generic and only really close to the composite. The restaurant had longitudinal gas cylinders in the middle between the vee hangers, and the battery boxes were on the other side.

 

Adrian

Edited October 16, 2014 by Adrian Wintle

[Graham Walters]

Thanks for all the info, my modeling skills aren't up to altering the details yet, but it's still interesting to know how two manufacturers can get things so right and wrong at the same time.

 

My main concern is of course whether it would have been possible to see the two coaches in the same rake, I gather from what has been said that it would have been possible, this makes them both sit in my era, which is good to know.

[Adrian Wintle]

Thanks for all the info, my modeling skills aren't up to altering the details yet, but it's still interesting to know how two manufacturers can get things so right and wrong at the same time.

 

My main concern is of course whether it would have been possible to see the two coaches in the same rake, I gather from what has been said that it would have been possible, this makes them both sit in my era, which is good to know.

 

Remember that the Hornby coach dates from the early '70s and was part of the range that used a common underframe and modular parts. There were Southern (CK, BTK), LMS (CK, BTK), and GWR (CK, BTK, RC) coaches that used the same underframe (and originally the same LMS bogies), and the Royal Mail coach owes a lot to these as well. The Bachmann coach was originally a Mainline model that was made in the '80s(?) and was specifically a GWR coach (they moulded a TK and a BCK but then made other types with judicious painting). Bachmann actually modified the moulds of the TK to make it less accurate (window height on the corridor side).

 

Also, the Bachmann version is a fairly recent release (hence the finer paint) where the Hornby release is sort of mid-life (early '90s?).

 

It was certainly possible to see the two coaches in the same rake, although the Bachmann one would have had a faded/weathered white roof or the Hornby one would have had different windows and a grey roof to be strictly accurate.

 

Adrian

Edited October 16, 2014 by Adrian Wintle

[tomparryharry]

The 'blue axlebox' is usually because the wheelset has been replaced, IIRC. You wouldn't normally see a full train with 'blue boxes'. However, a coach would normally have all 4 axles (2 bogies) 'done' at the same time. The idea being that the blue would fade over time, so you would see different hues of blue, depending on the time interval from when the coach was shopped.

 

As Chris says, the tops are normally painted, but not always the full box. The split line being about half way down the box. I dont know about the other blue bits......

 

As for the roof, I always thought they were grey or white, depending on the age of the repaint.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ian

[gwrrob]

I have a dislike for white roofs and much prefer grey in the period I model.Railways were/are filthy places.

[MarkAustin]

It's often said that coach/waggon roofs darkened due to weathering and built-up grime.

 

This is incorrect.

 

The roofs were painted with white lead, which reacts with sulphur (IIRC) and gets progressively darker over time. Consequently, unless you are modelling a new rake of stock, any formation could have roofs of any colour between white and darkish grey depending on the time since the vehicle was out-shopped last.

 

It's an important distinction about the process, as the roof base colour would be uniform at any time with only a secondary change due to smoke etc.

 

Mark A

[Adrian Wintle]

It's often said that coach/waggon roofs darkened due to weathering and built-up grime.

 

This is incorrect.

 

The roofs were painted with white lead, which reacts with sulphur (IIRC) and gets progressively darker over time. Consequently, unless you are modelling a new rake of stock, any formation could have roofs of any colour between white and darkish grey depending on the time since the vehicle was out-shopped last.

 

It's an important distinction about the process, as the roof base colour would be uniform at any time with only a secondary change due to smoke etc.

 

Mark A

 

Thanks for that. I hadn't realized that there was a chemical reaction going on as well as just general grime.

 

They did start painting the roofs grey in about '41 for visibility reasons, so the white lead issue would have gone away then.

 

Adrian

[Simond]

The blue axle boxes were, AFAIK, used to indicate that the vehicle had oil lubrication in place of the older grease boxes. References in Gwr.org & nrmfriends

 

HTH

Simon

[Coach bogie]

As mentioned above, only the axlebox covers should be blue not the whole box.

 

The bogie swing hangers did have the sides painted blue as below.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Karhedron]

The question of roof colour is an interesting one that I have been looking into as part of my research for the N Gauge Society's forthcoming Collett K41 model. The accepted wisdom is that grey roofs were introduced around 1941 to reduce the visibility of the train from the air.

 

However, have found a couple of pictures of K42s in the Swindon archives that suggest grey roofs started to appear in the late 30s. Here are some shots of K42 166 (1937) and 124 (1940) both of which have grey roofs.

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/passenger-brake-van-no-166/print/8053035.html

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_12_2009/post-1062-12620394723493.jpg

 

Compare these to 109 built just a few years earlier in 1934 which clearly has a bright white roof.

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/p/121/passenger-brake-van-no-109-8053031.jpg

 

Now both the K42s were finished in plain brown livery rather than fully lined chocolate and cream which may affect things. I have no definite proof but I am beginning to suspect that the issue of aerial visibilty merely accelerated a change in roof colouring that may actually have started as early as 1937.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Karhedron

[Simond]

As mentioned above, only the axlebox covers should be blue not the whole box.

 

The bogie swing hangers did have the sides painted blue as below.

 

P9166482.JPG

 

Mike Wiltshire

nothing like a prototype photo to give a bit of certainty to the issue!

 

but do we know when/why the hanger pots were also blue? - I very much doubt they were oil lubricated!!!

 

best

Simon

[Martyn T]

Not convinced of the greyness of 166, looks to me like it could be white but heavily dodged to prevent blown highlights, the right hand end is suggestive of this to me. Sorry to muddy the waters further.

[Simond]

roof colour - I'd be very wary of accepting a "publicity" photo as representative of stock in use.

 

There was a cracking photo of Reading on here somewhere, will try to find it.  Lots of stock, lots of white roofs, lots of grey ones...

 

best

Simon

[MarkAustin]

The question of roof colour is an interesting one that I have been looking into as part of my research for the N Gauge Society's forthcoming Collett K41 model. The accepted wisdom is that grey roofs were introduced around 1941 to reduce the visibility of the train from the air.

 

However, have found a couple of pictures of K42s in the Swindon archives that suggest grey roofs started to appear in the late 30s. Here are some shots of K42 166 (1937) and 124 (1940) both of which have grey roofs.

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/passenger-brake-van-no-166/print/8053035.html

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_12_2009/post-1062-12620394723493.jpg

 

Compare these to 109 built just a few years earlier in 1934 which clearly has a bright white roof.

 

http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/p/121/passenger-brake-van-no-109-8053031.jpg

 

Now both the K42s were finished in plain brown livery rather than fully lined chocolate and cream which may affect things. I have no definite proof but I am beginning to suspect that the issue of aerial visibilty merely accelerated a change in roof colouring that may actually have started as early as 1937.

Roofs of both wagon and coaching stcok were painted with white lead. When applied it is a fairly pure white. However, this does not last. White lead reacts with atmospheric sulphur (pretty common around steam engines) and goes grey. The older the paint job, the darker the grey. So, any new stock will show up with a white roof. This is true of most official pictures. In-service could be any colour between white and dark grey depending on when last painting. I believe, however, that you are right in saying that roofs were painted grey during WW2.

 

Mark A

[buffalo]

The above comments about white lead reacting with sulphorous compounds are quite correct, the process being well advanced within a year or so of painting. Painting the tops of axle boxes blue began in 1927 and was used to indicate that the axle boxes had been modified. I don't know the nature of the modification, but it certainly had nothing to do with grease vs oil types. Grease boxes had not been fitted to GWR coaches or other rolling stock since the late 19th century (oil boxes were introduced from the late 1880s). Contemporary photos from the late twenties and thirties regularly show both the axlebox cover and the spring hangers painted blue, though I've not seen any explanation for the latter.

 

Nick

Edited December 3, 2014 by buffalo

[Simond]

have a look through this thread, there are several photos including coaches, and you will see a variety of colours, and dates, varying from early and dark to more recent and light - the colour is pretty much "grey" throughout, but varying from "off white" to "near black" and this is more to do with the length of time in service than the year, I think.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77804-the-stationmaster-has-been-to-an-auction/

 

and the photos are brilliant anyway!

best

Simon

[Il Grifone]

The above links show only the axlebox covers in blue, which doesn't exclude other coaches having the spring hangers as well, of course.

 

The colour photo of the bogie is of a preserved example and the usual caveat about copying models applies.

 

Roof colour remains a controversial issue. There is plenty of photographic evidence of vehicle in traffic with white roofs, but this gradually would turn to black though degeneration of the chemicals in the paint and the fallout from locomotive (and other) chimneys in the form of smuts. I can remember always having dirty hands from my habit of looking out of open train windows as a child. A smut in the eye was also a common occurrence.

 

Looking at the photo of no. 124 and its wavy sides makes me wonder how much criticism a model produced like that would receive.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Il Grifone

[buffalo]

The above links show only the axlebox covers in blue, which doesn't exclude other coaches having the spring hangers as well, of course...

Try Russell's Appendix Vol 1. Looking only at the E diagrams from E132 (1928) to E163 (1947), most of the 'as built' photos show the blue spring hangers. Exceptions where only the axleboxes are painted are mostly around 1928 or after 1947. Unfortunately few 'in service' photos are clear enough to detect any hint of blue paint.

 

Nick

[Simond]

Looking at a few pix over the last few days, it's very clear that coach roof colours vary between "snow" and "soot" - often in the same train.

 

I haven't found any confirmation (or contradiction) regarding the "blue axle boxes = oil lubricated"

 

Any dates / evidence would be welcome!

 

Best

Simon

[Coppercap]

I can remember always having dirty hands from my habit of looking out of open train windows as a child. A smut in the eye was also a common occurrence.

 

That happens to me, even now! Oh look, I've just got one in the eye...   

[buffalo]

...I haven't found any confirmation (or contradiction) regarding the "blue axle boxes = oil lubricated"...

Well, if you don't believe me, try the paper read to the GWR Mechanics' Institution on January 9th 1896 by a certain G. J. Churchward, reproduced in Russell's coaches vol 1.

The bearings of all modern carriage stock are lubricated with oil...

Alternatively, look at the photos in the same book. You'll find very few grease boxes beyond the first few pages.

 

Nick

Edited December 8, 2014 by buffalo