Which one is right ! ?

[Simond]

Thanks Nick

 

I'll look at that reference

 

I didn't disbelieve you!

 

Best

Simon

[buffalo]

I should have mentioned that the mid-1927 date for the start of blue axleboxes comes from GWW. Looking at their references, it appears they used the same evidence of photos from Russell's Appendix that I mentioned above. I don't recall seeing any other source for this date.

 

Nick

[Simond]

I'm not at home at the mo' so I can't go look, but I read the blue/oil thing somewhere. I was pretty sure it was the Harris book, but I could be wrong. It was a busy weekend so axle boxes were not high on the priority list!

 

The '27 date would accord with my memory, which is likely less reliable than GWW! If I find something, I'll post it. Meanwhile I paint my axle box tops blue.

 

Assuming my source or memory is wrong, I wonder why they painted them thus.

 

In idle searching of the web, being in a hotel, and thus otherwise not more usefully entertained, I found this. http://www.steamindex.com/jile/jile40.htm, which (article 216) ironically refers to the grease lubrication of rolling element bearings, alas, in the late 40's & early 50's, so it seems that the 1927/8 change was probably not the introduction of roller or ball bearings.

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

It's not only me...

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriescoach1928.html

 

See caption of photo of G1 coach - this wasn't where I got it from

 

Simon

[Wenrash]

How accurate is the roof profile of these old Hornby Bow ended coaches. It does not seem correct to me.

Richard

[chrisf]

Not very.  

 

Chris

 

EDIT - On reflection, that was not very helpful.  The profile reminds me of the one on the old Bachmann Thompsons save that it is a lot worse.  Inspired by one of Tony Wright's DVDs I set about trying to correct it with a very coarse file using the draw-file technique so ably described by TW.  Unlike him I was able to make very little visible difference.  The plastic is of a strange consistency and at times reminded me of custard.  It was inevitable that the cantrail would be a casualty of the filing process so I have to replace it with Microstrip somehow.  I'm hoping that fixing the new one a bit higher up will help to make the roof look a bit less bulbous.  I should add that I am using the body, which I bought for not very many pennies at a swapmeet, as a foundation for some Comet sides.  As with all my projects it goes in fits and stops so do not expect to see it in the RMweb challenge.

Edited March 19, 2015 by chrisf

[sjrixon]

What are the vents on the top called? Tornado vents?

 

I was looking at wizard models to get some replacements and there are two GWR types.

 

Also, have a repainted restaurant car that sits in the middle of a rake of centenary stock. I'll grab a picture for you.

Edited March 19, 2015 by sjrixon

[Wenrash]

Not very.  

 

Chris

 

EDIT - On reflection, that was not very helpful.  The profile reminds me of the one on the old Bachmann Thompsons save that it is a lot worse.  Inspired by one of Tony Wright's DVDs I set about trying to correct it with a very coarse file using the draw-file technique so ably described by TW.  Unlike him I was able to make very little visible difference.  The plastic is of a strange consistency and at times reminded me of custard.  It was inevitable that the cantrail would be a casualty of the filing process so I have to replace it with Microstrip somehow.  I'm hoping that fixing the new one a bit higher up will help to make the roof look a bit less bulbous.  I should add that I am using the body, which I bought for not very many pennies at a swapmeet, as a foundation for some Comet sides.  As with all my projects it goes in fits and stops so do not expect to see it in the RMweb challenge.

Thank you Chris.

I wondered if any one has attempted to fix the roof profile. I have a Van 3rd, I think a RH D95, and have always wanted to correct the roof for a coach using Comet sides.

I considered it not worth it.

Why do manufactures get it wrong I wonder.

The published GA drawings in the GW Journal and John Lewis's book do not give dimensions of the roof profile. I have only ever seen one drawing that does, and that is one by Stan Hunter of a rebuilt articulated 1st class. So what drawing was Mr Hunter looking at that gave him the dimensions?

 

Richard

[chrisf]

 So what drawing was Mr Hunter looking at that gave him the dimensions?

 

Good question!  It struck me as odd that the drawing for the C77 in John Lewis's book was accompanied by the wrong underframe drawing.  Maybe the drawing/s to which Mr Hunter had access have disappeared into very private hands.  Maybe someone who knows will step forward.  Maybe pigs will sprout wings ... 

 

Meanwhile, I had the thought this afternoon that a Surform blade would take off enough of the Hornby roof to achieve something nearer to the proper profile.  If this is a daft idea, and why would it not be, please speak now before the next 15% day at Homebase!  

 

Chris

[sjrixon]

As you were talking about roof colour... The one on the right wasn't done by me.. What I didn't realise until I put them side by side like this, is how much higher on the boggie the old one sits.. Roof colour however is much nicer, it's a shame the transfers have been done badly..  It's been in my long list of jobs to tidy this one up, but it never gets to the top.

 

 

I'd go for the surform blade.. If if works, you can do mine I liked the way Tony did the Thompson coach, but I've never had the confidence to go at one with a file.

[Adrian Wintle]

What are the vents on the top called? Tornado vents?

 

I was looking at wizard models to get some replacements and there are two GWR types.

 

Also, have a repainted restaurant car that sits in the middle of a rake of centenary stock. I'll grab a picture for you.

 

They would be shell ventilators:

Comet: http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/modules/viewcatpic.php/11/519

MJT: http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2941.php

 

Adrian

[Il Grifone]

1084

I can remember taking a coarse file to a 'Gordon' coach (basically the same in weird colours) in an attempt to correct the roof profile. It's still sitting in a box somewhere so I assume I wasn't 100% successful.  In any case replacement roofs are available as an aluminium extrusion. (Comet do them I believe.) Unfortunately the sides also have the wrong profile and the ends appear to have LMS origins (??? ).

 

Perhaps we'll get some retooled coaches for 2016. The three lesser railways have all had decent coaches, so perhaps it's time...... (Hawksworth coaches don't really count!)

 

A set of these coaches would be ideal, covering almost the whole grouping era and relatively short - suitable for our less than scale radii. It is true that 5 mouldings (not counting the restaurant car) are necessary for a complete train, but with CAD that shouldn't be a problem. A set in 1920's faux panelled livery would be particularly attractive.

759

Edited March 29, 2015 by Il Grifone

[george stein]

So, reading this in the USA, I would conclude that "weathering" of coaching stock (except bogies & dusty undersides) should be fairly light-handed (e.g., dust on bellows) but a more prototypical "rake" of Bachmann Colletts would display a variety of (soot-stained) shades of grey and the white Hornby roofs be fairly heavily faded light grey and soot.  Aiming for the last year of peace - 1938 - but not war-time blackout.  Advice???

 

George

North Carolina

[NCB]

So, reading this in the USA, I would conclude that "weathering" of coaching stock (except bogies & dusty undersides) should be fairly light-handed (e.g., dust on bellows) but a more prototypical "rake" of Bachmann Colletts would display a variety of (soot-stained) shades of grey and the white Hornby roofs be fairly heavily faded light grey and soot.  Aiming for the last year of peace - 1938 - but not war-time blackout.  Advice???

 

George

North Carolina

 

For 1938, roofs would have started off white. Depending on time since last repaint they would tend to a greyish colour. Plus any acquired soot etc. There's a well known pic (forget where) showing the carriage sidings at Old Oak Common, where there's a fair amount of white but also some very dark roofs.

 

I've heard it said that the "brown vehicles" had grey roofs but I'm unconvinced.

 

I too model GWR around 1938. For goods vans I use a technique of spraying the roofs with alternate passes from Halfords white and grey primer cans. The dots mix to give a sort of grey with a slight grain, looks reasonably convincing to me, and each roof comes out a slightly different grey, some nearly white, some almost the grey primer colour. However, tried it on coaches and it doesn't work anything like as well, something to do with the larger area involved. So for coach roofs I stick to white primer and my story is they've all been recently repainted.

 

Here's an example of 3 similar GW vans done using this technique: a rebuilt V4, a V12 and a V14.

The wagons themselves will receive further weathering when I'm in the mood for it.

 

Nigel

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by NCB

[The Johnster]

I HATE WHITE ROOFS ON MODELS!!!

 

They are prototypical for ex-works vehicles but I doubt they lasted even the first journey, behind steam locos and in pre Clean Air Act days.  They seem to be associated with exhibition layouts on which excessive direct overhead lighting worsens the effect, and look bloody awful from a considerable distance.  They denote (in my mind) a type of modelling that insists that everything was always bright and new, it was always summer, and are there strawberries yet for tea?, because of course everything was much better in the good old days.  Immaculate, sometimes immaculately modelled, trains run through picture postcard villages and the sun shines on the thatched tied cottages, inhabited by happy rustics who were in no way impoverished, unhealthy, ill-fed, and too terrified of losing jobs and homes to do anything about it.

 

Unless you are modelling the Blue Train or the Orient Express, don't have white roofs.  Please.  Just for me...

[Simond]

I HATE WHITE ROOFS ON MODELS!!!

 

They are prototypical for ex-works vehicles but I doubt they lasted even the first journey, behind steam locos and in pre Clean Air Act days.  They seem to be associated with exhibition layouts on which excessive direct overhead lighting worsens the effect, and look bloody awful from a considerable distance.  They denote (in my mind) a type of modelling that insists that everything was always bright and new, it was always summer, and are there strawberries yet for tea?, because of course everything was much better in the good old days.  Immaculate, sometimes immaculately modelled, trains run through picture postcard villages and the sun shines on the thatched tied cottages, inhabited by happy rustics who were in no way impoverished, unhealthy, ill-fed, and too terrified of losing jobs and homes to do anything about it.

 

Unless you are modelling the Blue Train or the Orient Express, don't have white roofs.  Please.  Just for me...

 

 

well, your railway your rules, and I don't wholly disagree with you, but have a look at this

 

http://blogs.reading.ac.uk/special-collections/files/2016/03/HP-OS-265.jpg

 

Huntley and Palmers, Reading with the GW mainline behind.  1926.

 

There is one pale roofed coach to the far right, the 5-coach train mid-left has two dark, two pale, and another darker one, but LOTs of the goods vans have very white-ish roofs. I counted 21 but your criteria for "white" may differ from mine - either way, a substantial proportion of the goods vehicles have pale roofs.

 

best

Simon

[bécasse]

White roofs go a dark grey (with a tinge of brown) colour not so much because of soot and other grime (after all they are the best rain-washed part of any vehicle) but because of a chemical reaction between the white lead paint used and the traces of hydrogen sulphide gas in the atmosphere. Vehicles which spent a lot of time in the general vicinity of gasworks usually darkened most quickly, but even in country areas much marshland gives off hydrogen sulphide, so the effect happens there too.

 

I suspect that the canvas on goods van roofs received fairly regular top-ups of white lead paint as their simpler construction was inherently less waterproof than the roofs of coaching stock and yet it was important to keep the van contents dry - and this may well be the main reason why white-roofed vans seem to be proportionally more commonplace than white-roofed carriages when examining period photographs. An element of catch-up maintenance after the end of the Great War may be a factor too.

[Simond]

Becasse

 

Interesting point, could well indicate a differen5 maintenance regime for goods and passenger stock. Of course, wet passengers would be problematic too, but as you say, maybe the structure has different needs.

 

I’d be interested to get more info, and would certainly like to see more photos of the era, which would help me paint my models accordingly.

 

Best

Simon

[57xx]

I HATE WHITE ROOFS ON MODELS!!!

If you're happy modelling non-prototypical then feel free to apply Rule #1 to your models.

 

They are prototypical for ex-works vehicles but I doubt they lasted even the first journey, behind steam locos and in pre Clean Air Act days.  

 

There are dozens upon dozens of photographs that will refute this meme. Only the other night I came across some new ones I'd not seen before whilst reading GWR Goods Train Workings Vol. 1.

 

Unless you are modelling the Blue Train or the Orient Express, don't have white roofs.  Please.  Just for me...

 

Unless you are talking about have a whole rake of vans with pristine white roofs, then no, sorry, I'm going to stick with having what the evidence shows to have been a reality.