Hand operated points

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi All

 

Following a recent post on this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73622-modelling-pet-hates/?p=1638229 I thought it would be a good idea to make this a topic of its own.

 

When I was building Pig Lane I wanted to make sure I had the hand levers for my points facing the right way. I made a collection of the curved type point levers and  looking at loads of photos they always pointed away from the point. This looked the opposite to what I would have expected. Fitted as per the photos but why were they that way round? A friend of mine loaned me a book on GWR track and at the back was a short chapter stating why.

 

They are an early H&S feature. Wagons being shunted in the trailing direction will push the blades over if they are set against them. This is not possible with model railways as we have some locking device on our points so we need to chnage them in both directions. In real life there is no lock on the points in a yard so there is no need to change the points when vehicles are travelling in the trailing direction as they will do it themselves.

 

 

When approaching in the facing direction and they are set the wrong way the shunter (human type) needs to re-set them. The lever always faces away from the point towards the oncoming train so the shunter can see the train and keep himself out of the way. There is crank gubbins under the lever which changes the point and allows the lever to face the right direction.

 

 

The older straight levers which would face the way the point was set often left the shunter (human type) with his back to the train and in a noisy yard he might not hear the train and splat, another letter of condolence needs to be written.

 

 

There is another type of lever, a straight one with a foot pedal, these are found at spring points. A spring point returns to is "normal" route once a trailing wagon or train has passed. Most facing trains would take the normal route.

 

 

If on the odd occasion a train, loco, wagon etc. needs to go down other route then the lever needs to pulled, the shunter (human type) presses down with his foot on the pedal, this holds the spring over so he can pull the lever. They were/are not the easiest levers to pull as the spring wants to catapult the person pulling it.  Again this type of lever faces away from the point.

 

 

 

I hope this helpful and that we now start to see layouts where the levers face the right way and do not endanger our little plastic or whitemetal shunters.

 

Edit: In post number 6 Dave mentions that I have indicated that the points are being pushed, it has taken me a week to work out the confusion is to do with the blue arrow. This is meant to represent where the shunter is looking, so I now added an eye to the drawings.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Clive Mortimore

[garethashenden]

Thank you for that. Very useful. I think I've got a few to adjust now...

[kenw]

A useful item.

 

I have though come across plenty of single-way pull points (as in the first example) with straight levers, not just the curved type as suggested here. (In fact I've never come across a lever type that pulls both ways).

On this single-pull type, the lever only pulls the point when pulled in one direction, whichever way the points being changed, it's then returned freely to it's normal position. It's worth noting that the lever is always returned to normal after use, as if left facing the 'wrong' way when a vehicle passes through trailing against the point, as it changes the point the lever would spring back quite violently, hazardous to anyone stood near it.

 

Spring points require the lever to be 'held over' by the lever while a movement passes over in the reversed direction, and were often used where vehicles entering by mistake could be hazardous.

This type of lever was also used for catch points on running lines to allow emergency movements such as an assisting loco going to a failed train.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Ken

 

Thanks for the addtional information.

[The Stationmaster]

Two way handpoint levers come (or came ) in a  variety of shapes - both the 'bent ones' (upper illustration) in at least two different forms and with straight handles, which seem have been the usual form for those installed new from the late 1960s onwards (and possibly earlier).  Two way levers have long been the most common type no doubt because of their ease of use and their ability to be trailed through - very handy in a yard but a potential trap for the unwary should you happen to reverse the movement with a wagon in just the wrong position.

 

I have never seen a one way point lever of the type illustrated above with the exception of those fitted with a foot pedal for holding over the points (technically they amount to a one way lever because they have to be held down for the reverse position).  The only one way levers I have seen - and it's a long time back - were of the old-fashioned style with a nice big cast weight to hold the lever, & point, in position and they had to be turned right over to change the points as the weighted handle lay parallel to the ground and only just above it, nasty things.

[Dave Scott]

I am colncerned re the pics showing a shunter pushing a lever. you allways pull a point lever. What might interest those who have not seen the mechanism it has more in common with Peco than you think.Hand points have an over centre spring just like model points. To change the direction pulling the lever throws the spring over centre so the blades snap over to the other direction. Pull the lever again and the blades smapover to the other direction again. The lever allways pulls in the same direction. Hand points can be trailed but you cannot guarantee the blades go right home. Most preserved railways tend to change the points in the trailing direction.

 

There is another thpe of lever I saw on the Docks at Dover. The lever was set flush with the deck/ The shunter lifted the lever to the vertical and pulled, points changed the lever was dropped back into it recess.

[Clive Mortimore]

Two way handpoint levers come (or came ) in a  variety of shapes - both the 'bent ones' (upper illustration) in at least two different forms and with straight handles, which seem have been the usual form for those installed new from the late 1960s onwards (and possibly earlier).  Two way levers have long been the most common type no doubt because of their ease of use and their ability to be trailed through - very handy in a yard but a potential trap for the unwary should you happen to reverse the movement with a wagon in just the wrong position.

 

I have never seen a one way point lever of the type illustrated above with the exception of those fitted with a foot pedal for holding over the points (technically they amount to a one way lever because they have to be held down for the reverse position).  The only one way levers I have seen - and it's a long time back - were of the old-fashioned style with a nice big cast weight to hold the lever, & point, in position and they had to be turned right over to change the points as the weighted handle lay parallel to the ground and only just above it, nasty things.

Thanks Mike for the addtional information. I am trying to find the safe place where I put a photocopy of the chapter, but form memory it did state that the two-way levers came into use around 1900 but took time to replace the one way levers.

 

 

I am colncerned re the pics showing a shunter pushing a lever. you allways pull a point lever. What might interest those who have not seen the mechanism it has more in common with Peco than you think.Hand points have an over centre spring just like model points. To change the direction pulling the lever throws the spring over centre so the blades snap over to the other direction. Pull the lever again and the blades smapover to the other direction again. The lever allways pulls in the same direction. Hand points can be trailed but you cannot guarantee the blades go right home. Most preserved railways tend to change the points in the trailing direction.

 

There is another thpe of lever I saw on the Docks at Dover. The lever was set flush with the deck/ The shunter lifted the lever to the vertical and pulled, points changed the lever was dropped back into it recess.

Hi Dave

 

Thanks to you as well for more information.

 

Sorry my drawing of the shunter (human type) looks like he is pushing the lever not pulling but he is meant to be pulling. If anyone can do a better drawing I would be happy to replace him.

 

The main theme of this thread was to inform other modellers that the lever faces away from the point and why it does. As I stated to start with I wanted my levers to face the right way and was surprised when viewing photos of the real thing they faced opposite to what I thought they should. Many modellers do not seem to have viewed photos beyond the loco in the front.

 

 

They are only small but if the right way round help the look of a layout.

[Dave Scott]

Thanks Mike for the addtional information. I am trying to find the safe place where I put a photocopy of the chapter, but form memory it did state that the two-way levers came into use around 1900 but took time to replace the one way levers.

 

 

Hi Dave

 

Thanks to you as well for more information.

 

Sorry my drawing of the shunter (human type) looks like he is pushing the lever not pulling but he is meant to be pulling. If anyone can do a better drawing I would be happy to replace him.

 

The main theme of this thread was to inform other modellers that the lever faces away from the point and why it does. As I stated to start with I wanted my levers to face the right way and was surprised when viewing photos of the real thing they faced opposite to what I thought they should. Many modellers do not seem to have viewed photos beyond the loco in the front.

 

IM (29)a.jpg

 

They are only small but if the right way round help the look of a layout.

Clive - my drawing skills would not do any better. Your model looks great and I agree the levers do add that certain something

[Pacific231G]

Interesting that in Britain this type of point seems to depend on springs to hold the blades to the stock whereas elsewhere gravity is frequently used

 

This type of point lever with a swinging weight attached to the lever collar (which is often lockable) used to be more or less universal in France and other European countries and are still used very extensively. The operator can either pull the lever and allow the weight to swing round or swing the weight around and let gravity do the hard work. I'm guessing that trailing them is more reliable than springs particularly when they're not frequently used and they would have the advantage of giving an indication of the point's setting when it was for example hidden under snow.

These do need some space to operate and are invariably placed on the outside of a fan of tracks as here.

This station - Sabres in Landes - is used by passenger trains in a tourist operation and certainly  on light railways and branch lines there seems to have been no difficulty about using them without any kind of facing point lock. With the collar locked the points could still be trailed but the weight would always return them to the their normal position.

 

I have seen other types which would use springs in yards where space is more limited such as this one in Noyelles (the junction for the Baie de Somme)

The lever is protected by a railing .

Edited October 31, 2014 by Pacific231G

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting that in Britain this type of point seems to depend on springs to hold the blades to the stock whereas elsewhere gravity is frequently used Fr hand point (Marqueze)2.jpgFr hand point (Marqueze).jpg

Fr hand point (VFL)1.jpg

 

Gravity of of course used in one way levers in Britain (although i'm sure they will have disappeared from the national network a long while back) but in the 2 way lever the switch is held over by an over-centre cam arrangement and it is pressure on the spring, from either a trail through or the handlever which makes the cam move over centre.

[big jim]

as an aside, since the beginning of august you are not allowed to trail through any points in EWS yards anymore, you have to get down and set the route correctly

 

some EWS yards have american style 'switch levers' which are like a loop handle that swings over and locks in position, rather than havving to pull it, there are 2 versions of those, orange handled ones that you can run through and white handled ones that you cannot at it will damage the points

[The Stationmaster]

as an aside, since the beginning of august you are not allowed to trail through any points in EWS yards anymore, you have to get down and set the route correctly

 

some EWS yards have american style 'switch levers' which are like a loop handle that swings over and locks in position, rather than havving to pull it, there are 2 versions of those, orange handled ones that you can run through and white handled ones that you cannot at it will damage the points

I could see the point (sorry) of them but I've always wondered quite how traditional British railway folk would take to them - it would seem the new edict might suggest that some traditionalists might not have entirely got the message.  sorry about the extra work it will cause Jim but I'm sure you'll be paid more in consequence (not).

[big jim]

the new rule is regards traditional points too, i must admit i always used to set the 'american' points anyway

 

the reason behind the new ruling is they recon it will reduce wear and tear and maintainace costs

[Clive Mortimore]

as an aside, since the beginning of august you are not allowed to trail through any points in EWS yards anymore, you have to get down and set the route correctly

 

some EWS yards have american style 'switch levers' which are like a loop handle that swings over and locks in position, rather than havving to pull it, there are 2 versions of those, orange handled ones that you can run through and white handled ones that you cannot at it will damage the points

Hi Jim

 

The real thing is now copying us modellers

[ajwffc]

as an aside, since the beginning of august you are not allowed to trail through any points in EWS yards anymore, you have to get down and set the route correctly

 

some EWS yards have american style 'switch levers' which are like a loop handle that swings over and locks in position, rather than havving to pull it, there are 2 versions of those, orange handled ones that you can run through and white handled ones that you cannot at it will damage the points

If i remember correctly the problem with running through the american switch stands was caused by the stiffness of them snapping  the stretcher bars. 

[The Stationmaster]

If i remember correctly the problem with running through the american switch stands was caused by the stiffness of them snapping  the stretcher bars. 

When points are run through it's always the weakest thing which will go first.  This could be the strecher bars, or rather joints or fixings etc in them etc, could be the rodding on a 'box worked point or even the crank beds moving and sometimes you might get no damage at all on a 'box worked point if the lever isn't fully home in the frame and it can move although I have heard of rodding flexing with no permanent damage.

 

But the big advantage of a two way handpoint lever was that you could/can just sail through without going to the trouble of having someone throw the point - a big advantage in a busy yard (but of course as we no longer have busy yards ... )

[LNER4479]

I recall, when working in a (coaching stock) depot 20 years ago, a meeting with the local p-way maintenance guys who were bemoaning the standard practice of running through hand points in the trailing direction and the damage it did to the cam mechanism. They brought some broken bits with them and explained how the vehicles pushing the points over caused the damage and reckoned that even hand points were 'designed' to be set by humans, not rail vehicles. They naturally tried to 'persuade' us to use the hand points 'properly'; naturally, they failed...

 

The recent EWS (DBS?!) edict comes as no surprise therefore, especially as (so I understand) they now do their own in-house maintenance of the track in their own yards.

Edited November 6, 2014 by LNER4479

[The Stationmaster]

We had a derailment one evening when I was at Radyr and I simply couldn't understand how it had happened - the obvious cause was that a handpoint had changed underneath a wagon, that bit was simple.  But the really difficult bit was why it had changed.  The immediate suspicion is that someone had changed it (such causes of derailments were not unknown) but there was no one near it at the time.

 

Back to normal working and later the same day, in the evening, exactly the same thing happened again so off I went to site and once we had a chance for a good look the Yard Chargeman and I found the cause - the handpoint lever box was working like a spring point when the point was trailed and unless it was pulled over on the lever it just sprang back the way it had been set before being trailed.   So I duly arranged for the PWay gang to come in and change the lever  which I found them doing at 08.00 the next (Saturday) morning - and really it is more accurate to say 'caught them' as the offending handlever box was about to be consigned to the river so no one else could have a good look at it and the worn cam which had caused the problem wouldn't have come to light.  Simple lack of maintenance but equally it was a result of years if trailing through the point wearing the cam,  and the PWay gang not bothering to check handpoint mechanisms.

[big jim]

And always remember to check the points are set under your train before you move off!!

 

 

 

Couple of pics from a few years back in derby after a loco moved off and one bogie went one way and the other went the other way after someone stabled a loco foul of the points and the driver next day never checked them before he moved off (someone had come in the yard and changed them during the night)

[ozzyo]

And always remember to check the points are set under your train before you move off!!

 

 

 

 

Couple of pics from a few years back in derby after a loco moved off and one bogie went one way and the other went the other way after someone stabled a loco foul of the points and the driver next day never checked them before he moved off (someone had come in the yard and changed them during the night)

 

Must have looked a bit like this?

 

OzzyO.

[Clive Mortimore]

The train arriving at Platfom 5 and 6 has come in sideways. :nono:

Edited November 12, 2014 by Clive Mortimore

[LNER4479]

Must have looked a bit like this?

6137222211_1541e74ffb_b.jpg

 

OzzyO.

That don't half look like Edge Hill (Downhill) carriage sidings?

 

A not uncommon occurrence in that neck of the woods, although they've made a good job of that one...

[bescotbeast]

And always remember to check the points are set under your train before you move off!!

 

 

 

Couple of pics from a few years back in derby after a loco moved off and one bogie went one way and the other went the other way after someone stabled a loco foul of the points and the driver next day never checked them before he moved off (someone had come in the yard and changed them during the night)

Crikey Chad's looking a bit rough since I worked there. We used to take Coalfish, MTA and PNAs for loading with Sand over the road crossing back in 2004. Here at Lovers Walk the Shunters are thankfully allowed to drive through and push the points over, if they had to stop and pull each set over it would really slow the job down.

[ikcdab]

with the "curly" type, is there an accepted length for the extended sleepers?

[bécasse]

13 hours ago, ikcdab said:

with the "curly" type, is there an accepted length for the extended sleepers?

See this drawing of a lever at Witney Goods.