GWR dual braked or air piped coaches @1900

[duncan]

Hi All,  I model the Caledonian Railway @1900, when there were through carriages from Glasgow to Bristol.  These were CR & GWR and seemed to run on alternating days.  I am looking at the possibility of modelling a GWR through carriage.

 

Can anyone advise of the diagram numbers of dual braked, vacuum / Westinghouse, carriages (would probably have been pretty rare) running in the period 1890 to 1905. 

 

I have seem topics on non passenger vehicles, but not carriages.

 

Also would have been used for a through train, eg for shooting party.  The CR had a few dual braked engines, so could possibly have taken over a GWR vacuum braked train at Carlisle, but I am guessing dual braked vehicles would be used.

 

Thanks in advance,  Duncan

[The Stationmaster]

The GWR had some dual braked family saloons which were the sort of thing a shooting party would probably have used.

[Western Star]

I model the Caledonian Railway @1900, when there were through carriages from Glasgow to Bristol.  

An interesting snippet.  Whilst I have nothing to say about the through carriages Glasgow to Bristol I have seen a photo of GWR NPCS with Westinghouse brake at Perth pre-WW1.  The vehicles were Siphon to Dia O11 and (I think) a pair of PLV to K14/5/6 (cannot tell if with or without corridor connections).

 

My reading of the photo is that the Siphon is in lake with large G W on the ends.

[corneliuslundie]

There is no mention of Westinghouse brakes for Diagram O11s in the GW Siphons book, though right at the end it mentions that all Westinghouse brake fittings were removed by the early 1930s. Lot 1211 was the only O11 lot built before WW1, in 1913, 20 in all numbered from 1462 to 1481. Late with large lettering would be right for this period.

 

I don';t have much on the PLVs.

 

John Lewis is your man. He is currently preparing a new book on GWR brown vehicles and will have amassed a lot more information since the book was published in 1986. You can ask a question via the HMRS website.

[buffalo]

The mention of an O11 at Perth is interesting, but is well beyond Duncan's period of interest. What evidence is there for lake livery. However, many earlier SIPHONs were Westinghouse piped or dual fitted, in particular, several lots of O4s built between 1896 and 1902, as well as all O5s built 1903-4.. SIPHONs regularly travelled to the north carrying fruit, veg and fish, some specifically labelled for fish only, and later, sausages, bacon, etc.

 

As to coaches, the lot lists in the back of Harris mention the following as having Westinghouse brakes:

 

1896 Brake compo clerestory E44, three of (7)584-9 with W brakes

1901 3rd brake clerestory G18 2592-2600

1903 Invalid saloon clerestory G33 (8)221-2

 

There may, of course, have been others...

 

Nick

[Londontram]

Hello Duncan I presume your a member of the Caledonian association and have seen this thread http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=458 which discusses this subject (Once you get past there fascination with posts) the speculation being that the lead coach is of GWR origin on a through service.

 

   Off topic its good to know I'm not the only one modeling the "True Line" around the 1900 period. Regards Steve

[duncan]

Many thanks all, I have seen some photos of NPS & the CRA forum, which suggested E44 (I am a member of CRA).  Agree that pre WW1, probably fruit & veg.  During WW1, could be anything in a vehicle that was capable of moving, especially going north of Perth.

 

However I thought approaching the problem from the other end might pay dividends, as I am not sure how many GWR enthusiasts read the CRA forum, and it has.  Once this thread stalls, will have the information transferred to the CRA forum for wider dissemination.

 

Mike, you don't have any saloon numbers do you ?

 

Thanks  Duncan

[buffalo]

Yes, the E44 seems the most reasonable bet so far. I wouldn't entirely discount fish in the SIPHONs, there's a photo of one Westinghouse braked example marked "FOR FISH TRAFFIC ONLY" in the SIPHON book. It is, however, being loaded with churns

 

Although I doubt the notes in Harris' list are complete, the family saloons may have been the same as the invalid saloons listed in my earlier post. Conversion would involve no more than removing the suspended couch, perhaps just placing it on the floor or, perhaps, replacing it with a table? Those for the invalid saloons are in my post above. You'll need to ignore the digit in brackets, I believe that refers to a 1907 number change.

 

Nick

[Adrian Wintle]

Russell has diagrams for E43 and E45, both of which were non-gangwayed, semi-corridor*, lavatory brake tri-composites. It seems reasonable to assume that E44 would be a similar Westinghouse-braked coach. Both the E43 and E45 had a guards/luggage compartment with duckets, 4 thirds, a second, and one and a half firsts. E45 had the half first at the end, with end windows (so the three passengers in that compartment had a nice view if the coach was positioned correctly), while E43 had the half first as the second compartment and had no end windows. Capacity would have been 8-9 first, 7 second, and 32 third. E43 had end duckets while E45 had them inboard of the luggage doors. E43 and E44 were 56'0³/₄" long while E45 was 58'0³/₈" long.

 

The other diagrams in Russell for contemporary compos/brake compos are E38, a tri-compo with side gangways, E39, the 'Falmouth Coupe', a brake tri-compo similar to those described above (but with one less third-class compartment and two full firsts), and E48, a corridor brake tri-composite with centre gangways.

 

*there was a side corridor for the third-class passengers to access their two lavs. The only person without a lav was the guard.

 

For modelling purposes, the Bettabitz/247 Developments E39 Falmouth Coupe sides (to go on the Hornby long clerestory) would probably be an acceptable stand-in.

 

Adrian

[Londontram]

I don't see the E39 coach sides on 247 Developments list, do they still do them?

[Welchester]

I don't see the E39 coach sides on 247 Developments list, do they still do them?

 

No. See the announcement about coach parts:

http://www.247developments.co.uk/Carriage_announcement.html

[The Stationmaster]

Many thanks all, I have seen some photos of NPS & the CRA forum, which suggested E44 (I am a member of CRA).  Agree that pre WW1, probably fruit & veg.  During WW1, could be anything in a vehicle that was capable of moving, especially going north of Perth.

 

However I thought approaching the problem from the other end might pay dividends, as I am not sure how many GWR enthusiasts read the CRA forum, and it has.  Once this thread stalls, will have the information transferred to the CRA forum for wider dissemination.

 

Mike, you don't have any saloon numbers do you ?

 

Thanks  Duncan

Duncan,

 

I've got a complete list from 1921 of all GWR vehicles which were either dual braked or Westinghouse piped - complete that is including passenger stock and non-passenger carrying stock and some which I suspect (cattle vans) which might have been freight stock.  They are identified by their contemporaneous description and there are no diagram numbers, merely running numbers.  Oh, and it is quite a long list!

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

Assuming that you want 4mm vehicles, don't forget that Worsley Works have some GW coaches and include a 'through' coach.

 

Here is a link for you

 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_GWR.htm

 

Yours Peter.

[corneliuslundie]

 "What evidence is there for lake livery?" (post 5).

 

Just to clarify the record, though not really relevant to the discussion, Great Western Way 1st edition states on page 84 "In 1912 in common with passenger stock, the basic body colour was altered to Lake but in contrast to the passenger coaches the ends of the 'brown vehicles' were still the same colour as the sides." 

 

Thanks to others for the info on Westinghouse braked stock. Just as relevant for GW stock on the Rhymney.

[Penrhos1920]

The GWR built at least 20 designs of non-corridor bogie coach amounting to 118 coaches most built specifically for cross country through coaches.  The classic feature of these coaches was they were bi- or tri- brake composites with a small brake/luggage area.  Below is a list of them as I THINK they existed in 1920.  All the data is drawn from various secondary sources, none of it is my own original research as I prefer shorter coaches.  note not all of them would have been dual braked, it would be interesting to match this list with The StationMaster's list.

 

             

 

[The Stationmaster]

Very interesting.  The list I have is in the 1921 General Appendix and it is possible that it contains errors - such things did happen, even on the GWR - but regrettably i have no supplements until that issued in January 1924 (which added various ex RR etc vehicles to the list but did not amend the original) and it is therefore possible that the list had been amended between 1921 and 1924.

 

But if the list is correct very few of the vehicles listed in Penrhos' post are on it.  Only the following vehicles from that list are shown (all are dual braked) -

 

6716

7592-4

7115/6/7/8/9/23  i.e. 6 vehicles of the group shown above as 7115-24

 

Thus a total of 10 from the above list were shown in 1921 as dual braked - out of a total of c.120 'ordinary' (as opposed to saloons) 8 wheel passenger carrying coaches.

[buffalo]

 "What evidence is there for lake livery?" (post 5). [/size]

 

Just to clarify the record, though not really relevant to the discussion, Great Western Way 1st edition states on page 84 "In 1912 in common with passenger stock, the basic body colour was altered to Lake but in contrast to the passenger coaches the ends of the 'brown vehicles' were still the same colour as the sides." [/size]

 

Thanks to others for the info on Westinghouse braked stock. Just as relevant for GW stock on the Rhymney.[/size]

 

Yes. Perhaps my question was not clear. I was asking what Western Star's evidence was whene he said:

My reading of the photo is that the Siphon is in lake with large G W on the ends

What's the reason for suggesting the photo shows the lake livery?

 

Interestingly, in my 1978 edition of GWW, Slinn says 1908 which, of course, is the introduction of the short-lived brown coach livery. Maybe your copy has some corrections as your 1912 is the correct date for lake. You'll notice that his comments on p88 carry some doubt about the numbers of brown vehicles that received lake livery, and John Lewis in the 2009 edition is equally, if not more, doubtful of the extent. Certainly the 1913 lot of O11 may well have been painted in lake but I doubt many other brown vehicles received lake livery unless they were new builds between 1912 and 1920.

 

Nick

[Western Star]

The mention of an O11 at Perth is interesting.... What evidence is there for lake livery?

I showed the picture to John Lewis and his view is Lake, based upon the appearance of the lettering which is visible on the end of the Siphon.

[Brassey]

My interest is the North to West line and I have the marshalling diagrams for the summer of 1912 for both the LNWR and GWR through coaches.  Both are consistent and show a CR 12wheel break composite through vehicle from Glasgow to Taunton.  This was scheduled to leave Glasgow at 10am, Crewe at 4pm and Bristol 9pm so it did not return the same day.  The return working was ex Taunton at 7.7am.  Thus the vehicles involved alternately left Glasgow and Taunton in the mornings.  There is no mention of a GWR vehicle though this could have been on the roster before the CR break composite was introduced.  However, I do not have marshalling information any earlier than this.  

 

I think it is unlikely that different vehicles to those shown in the marshalling diagrams would have been used given the difficulty in the marshalling of through carriages over foreign lines.  This vehicle ran over 3 different companies metals.  It was rostered next to a WCJS break composite that was doing the same journey but ex Edinburgh.  To have different company's vehicles on different days would likely cause a lot of confusion with the staff doing the marshalling.

 

So unless there is original documentation to the contrary, I would not think that a GWR through carriage was regularly arranged in this train.  From memory I seem to remember that a WCJS vehicle was marshalled in years prior to the CR one but can't put my hands on the evidence.  GWR vehicles could of course have appeared in specials or replacing a breakdown which probably explains presence of the coach in the photo on the Society site.

 

I need to model the Caley coach which is on my todo list along with many others.

 

Peter

[Adrian Wintle]

 To have different company's vehicles on different days would likely cause a lot of confusion with the staff doing the marshalling.

 

 

This was done in many instances through the years. In the GWR 1938 carriage workings there is an inter-regional train that was comprised of GWR stock except for the restaurant that was alternately GWR and LMS (probably to balance revenues). There are a fair number of trains where sections were alternately LMS or GWR.

 

Adrian

[The Stationmaster]

This was done in many instances through the years. In the GWR 1938 carriage workings there is an inter-regional train that was comprised of GWR stock except for the restaurant that was alternately GWR and LMS (probably to balance revenues). There are a fair number of trains where sections were alternately LMS or GWR.

 

Adrian

Alternate days working was very common on inter-Company trains such as these and the coach working programmes (in GWR speak) contain numerous examples and some of them consisted of only one or two vehicles and in some cases made quite complicated journeys in the opposite direction, especially vans.  I seriously doubt it would have posed any difficulty at all for staff on the ground who were - at least on the GWR - well used to some quite complex coaching stock workings and restrictions on the use of various types of vehicle.

[corneliuslundie]

Another factor I wonder about was which of the composite carriages mentioned would have been narrow enough to travel over the various lines each, with its own loading gauge. I don't have Harris and Russell is not detailed enough, but I know that some stock was specifically built to narrower body styles for inter-company working. Wider ones were presumably intended for through carriages to GWR destinations.

 

And I agree that apart from new builds during the specific period when lake was used I doubt if many "brown" vehicles ever received lake.

 

Still on lake, on page 61 of the 1978 GWW the headings are "Period 1908 to 1912" and "Period 1913 to 1922". Lake comes up in the second of these sections. "The change was initiated in 1912 and was making itself clearly felt by 1913." I rw\eally must read the equivalent sections in the latest edition but the format does not make for easy browsing.

 

Jonathan

[Adrian Wintle]

Another factor I wonder about was which of the composite carriages mentioned would have been narrow enough to travel over the various lines each, with its own loading gauge. I don't have Harris and Russell is not detailed enough, but I know that some stock was specifically built to narrower body styles for inter-company working. Wider ones were presumably intended for through carriages to GWR destinations.

 

 

All of the clerestory brake compos mentioned above seem to have been 8'6³/₄" wide (9'3¹/₄" over the duckets), so there shouldn't have been a problem.

 

Adrian

[Penrhos1920]

Another factor I wonder about was which of the composite carriages mentioned would have been narrow enough to travel over the various lines each, with its own loading gauge. I don't have Harris and Russell is not detailed enough, but I know that some stock was specifically built to narrower body styles for inter-company working. Wider ones were presumably intended for through carriages to GWR destinations.

 

Jonathan

 

Since they were specifically built as inter company cross country through coaches I think they would have been suitable for most lines.  Maybe not for something like the Hastings Line.  All of the brake composites in my earlier posting were 8' wide if the Lewis Classification ends in N, or 8'6 if it ends in W.  Plus 18" if they had guards duckets.

[corneliuslundie]

Do you know of any 4-wheelers which were dual braked? I don't know if GWR locos hauled RR stock on the joint lines, and vice versa. But it is just possible (and more interesting on a model) that some of the carriages were dual braked to allow for strengthening.

 

Thanks for the clarification re coaches built for through workings. It was the mention of Falmouth coupes that sent me off on the wrong track.

 

I wonder if the reason for the difference between the two lists of dual braked coaches is simply that the company switched the brakes around as and when necessary. I suspect that if Westinghouse brakes were removed things like pipework might be left as not worth the work of removing them - and would make it easier to refit Westinghouse brakes in the future if desired. In the 19th century and for a while after it seems to have been normal for many companies to make quite big alterations to rolling stock. In theory the stock books would show everything that happened but there are plenty of examples where they don't. (I shan't mind if you give me three good reasons why this is impossible!)