Results - Wishlist Poll 2014

[Dunsignalling]

Thanks to the team for a great effort.

 

Unfortunately for the bank balance, 12 of my top twenty hit list appear in the top fifty. Could be an expensive time, as most of the others are in the top few of their category.

But fortunately, the arrivals of whichever examples do get made can be relied upon to be spread over three or four years!

 

John

[MJI]

Funny to think how many in that list I have.

 

117/118 yes I have both

Mark 2 b c yes I have some and waiting on windows

 

BSO well I was going to get a kit

 

But a lot are simply items which were available but no longer

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thanks to the team for a great effort.

 

Unfortunately for the bank balance, 12 of my top twenty hit list appear in the top fifty. Could be an expensive time, as most of the others are in the top few of their category.

But fortunately, the arrivals of whichever examples do get made can be relied upon to be spread over three or four years!

 

John

Yes, John, but there are several pre-orders in the pipeline already.

[Ozexpatriate]

... it has become more noticeable of late there is some 'wishlist scooping/cherrypicking' clearly happening in the industry and also that such an approach is resulting in, or nearly in, considerable duplication of effort if not necessarily production (witness four concerns working on the Adams radial and some of them have been developing their work for a considerable time, although not necessarily for a 'wishlist scooping' reason in one case).

Mike, I think there's a chicken and egg question there.

 

It's certainly true that highly polled items are the being chosen, but at the same time, they are very clear commercial choices, that wouldn't necessarily need a poll to identify them to an astute manufacturer/commissioner.

 

It is certainly true that the poll is "free" market research for all comers, and I think very high-quality market research at that. I completely agree that, based on it's intrinsic quality, it might also be behind the high rates of duplication we are seeing.

 

The Adams Radial tank is a good example. It has scored in the top five of the wishlist poll for the last three years at least. The longer it was ignored, or at least passed over, the higher the probability that potential competitors would (possibly unknown to each other*) simultaneously start working on one.

 

* This aspect of duplication I don't really understand. Stipulating that collusion is wrong and that competitors are free to do what ever they like, with few preserved examples, the people who own/operate/maintain the prototypes must know when people show up to measure them. At some point some level of scuttlebutt must indicate interest by others, and I can only presume that the people who pursue duplicates must be doing so with better knowledge of what is going on than the average punter.  I have to assume that at some point someone (pre-announcement) is making the decision "to heck with it, I'm going to do a duplicate!". 

[Dunsignalling]

Yes, John, but there are several pre-orders in the pipeline already.

True, but I've known about all mine long enough to have put the cash by in readiness.

 

Unless somebody springs something on me at very short notice, my credit card can rest easy in my wallet!

 

John   

[BR(S)]

Having looked through the sections that are of interest to me/I have most knowledge about, the thing that stands out is the relatively low standing of the Electrostar, based on what I would have expected.  It still came 9th in the EMU category but was beaten by much older unit types to varying degrees.  Perhaps this reflects the age of the people voting in this category.

[EddieB]

Curious that a couple of items that could be scratchbuilt have topped the poll this year.  A gated steam-era level crossing isn't that difficult to make (especially now that there's a ready supply of wood from firework rocket fall-out!) - although I concede that making a working one may test ingenuity, particularly where a moving crossing-keeper is involved.

 

As for the air-smoothed Merchant Navy, what was their nickname again?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Good to see Etches Park's finest (the Cl.120) top of the tree.

Interesting in the number of file downloads; around 400 for 4mm and 60 for 2mm. Is this the approx proportion of 00 : N modellers?

[JOHNMCDRAGON]

Various results as expected from poll regarding  new models, and  oft repeated  observations of demand, new tooling and design costs etc.  I just wondered that nobody mentioned so far the  wish  of some (myself included) of a Caprotti Black Five.  Would this be simple and therefore comparatively cheap for manufacturer to do  or are there practical problems, or are we just back to the supply/demand not enough return on investment scenario. What do others think?

[Dunsignalling]

Having looked through the sections that are of interest to me/I have most knowledge about, the thing that stands out is the relatively low standing of the Electrostar, based on what I would have expected.  It still came 9th in the EMU category but was beaten by much older unit types to varying degrees.  Perhaps this reflects the age of the people voting in this category.

Or maybe it justs reflects the proportion of people modelling the different eras. Mind you, that COULD be the same thing.

 

The Electrostar is a quite reasonable means of transport but, however good any models might be I just don't get why anyone models the current passenger scene. It's just go, stop, go back the other way. Even basic run-round facilities are few and far between these days.

 

With next-to-no operational interest left on 99% of the real railway, can there be any pleasure in a true "Modern Image" layout beyond the making of it?

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

I'd be interested in how others approached this year's poll.

 

In the past, I have limited my voting to things I am really keen on, assuming that others did the same. However, this year I voted for anything I would buy if made; assuming that, if something else I wanted more hit the shops at the same time, I could afford both.

 

Is there a third way? Does anyone else apply extra conditions? (e.g. I now refrain from voting for wagons available as Parkside or Cambrian kits!)

 

John

[Budgie]

Interesting to note there appears to be more post steam models in the N gauge top 50 than the 00 gauge top 50...

I've got a OO steam to diesel transition layout in the garden, and I'm building an up-to-date N gauge layout based on my local station indoors. It seemed daft to model the same thing in both layouts. So I voted for steam in OO and diesel and electric in N. 

 

but it still baffles me how the Class 117/118 polls more highly than the far more numerous and widespread Derby Class 116.

 

Couldn't a manufacturer produce both the 117/118 and the 116 from the same basic tools with a few changes between them?

 

Having looked through the sections that are of interest to me/I have most knowledge about, the thing that stands out is the relatively low standing of the Electrostar, based on what I would have expected.  It still came 9th in the EMU category but was beaten by much older unit types to varying degrees.  Perhaps this reflects the age of the people voting in this category.

Don't know what you mean here. I'm 65, and I could use at least six 12-car trains of electrostars on my N gauge layout. That's a lot of cash.

 

Or maybe it just reflects the proportion of people modelling the different eras. Mind you, that COULD be the same thing.

 

The Electrostar is a quite reasonable means of transport but, however good any models might be I just don't get why anyone models the current passenger scene. It's just go, stop, go back the other way.

I think you don't understand what modelling the present day is all about. Did you read the article about Banbury in the November Railway Modeller?

[EHertsGER]

I can only comment on the 00 poll.

 

The BPOT in the poll was an earlier diagram than the one announced by Invicta.  My personal view is that Invicta chose the wrong diagram as the earlier one would have been better, although we would need an early POT too to make up the full West of England TPO of the early 1960s.

 

I was pleased to see one of my personal top items high up - the Swindon Class 120 cross-country unit - but it still baffles me how the Class 117/118 polls more highly than the far more numerous and widespread Derby Class 116.

 

Good to see the Mark I BSO very high up - the most numerous Mark I passenger type that has not been modelled RTR.  I would have liked to have seen the RB and Diag 73 FO a bit higher up as these are the only other Mark I passenger types of which over 100 were built that have not been modelled recently in 00 - the Mainline RB came out around 33 years ago and the Replica FO around 1990 if I recall correctly.

Probably a throwback to the old LIMA 117 from which numerous cut and shut derivations were constructed, so we all just wish for a better version of the 'same old, same old' - yes the 116 would seem a better option, but I'm bound to say that if I want to cobble up a 125. Not much chance of one of those, but why would there be when the 116 looked pretty much the same whizzing past the platform...

[EHertsGER]

Can we have a separate section entitled 'Great Eastern Railway freight stock', please? (Or would that be GER ANYthing??) OK, Hornby J15 - but we haven't actually GOT any yet and it is slipping away to the spring...and I will have finished all my Gibson kits by then. OK, so the N7 (next after the J15s as I fish my Connoisseur kits out of the bank vault) did sneak in there while nobody was looking and there is a B12 lurking at the botttom, but most the frieght stock rattling about in Essex/Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire and nearby was of GER origin for years. Chiz as one was once nown to sa.

 

Best

Marcus of the lower fourth

[Ozexpatriate]

The  'original'  Merchant Navy is - as Ian has identified already - an interesting one but it gets even more interesting when one asks 'which version?'

Indeed so.

[BMacdermott]

I'd be interested in how others approached this year's poll.

 

In the past, I have limited my voting to things I am really keen on, assuming that others did the same. However, this year I voted for anything I would buy if made; assuming that, if something else I wanted more hit the shops at the same time, I could afford both.

 

Is there a third way? Does anyone else apply extra conditions? (e.g. I now refrain from voting for wagons available as Parkside or Cambrian kits!)

 

John

 

Hello John

 

Below is an extract from The Poll Q&A.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

 

What is the purpose of The Poll?

To provide an easy and enjoyable way for modellers and collectors to tell the major manufacturers and commissioners of ready-to-run railway models what they would like to see made from new tooling (excluding models announced, tooled or made since 2000).

 

It aims to seek what you would realistically wish to buy at any time in the future, bearing in mind that new models take around two to three years to develop.

[Padishar Creel]

Hallo,

Thanks to the poll organisers, all credit to them that they do this year after year.

I am an N-Gauger and good to see that the MK2b/c scored so highly. The corresponding locos are either avaiable from the two largest companies (or will soon be), it is logical that the coaching stock is produced - and of course the RB scored so highly, have always thought it makes more sense to manufacture that as opposed to an RU

 

Will be interesting to see what happens

 

es grüßt

pc

 

PS: Am I the only one who was surprised to see the absence of a super GUV in the list - or was I blind? 

[The Stationmaster]

I'd be interested in how others approached this year's poll.

 

In the past, I have limited my voting to things I am really keen on, assuming that others did the same. However, this year I voted for anything I would buy if made; assuming that, if something else I wanted more hit the shops at the same time, I could afford both.

 

Is there a third way? Does anyone else apply extra conditions? (e.g. I now refrain from voting for wagons available as Parkside or Cambrian kits!)

 

John

I simply vote for anything which I would buy - and not for anything else - and I don't reckon doing it that way is a bad idea as nowhere neat everything I vote is ever actually likely to be made and in any case it will spread over years so I think it gives a useful result.

 

If others do the same then sheer weight of numbers will indicate the items which are genuinely likely to sell well.

Good to see Etches Park's finest (the Cl.120) top of the tree.

Interesting in the number of file downloads; around 400 for 4mm and 60 for 2mm. Is this the approx proportion of 00 : N modellers?

From what some retailers have said to me that would sound roughly about right (but maybe the experience of retailers varies?

Mike, I think there's a chicken and egg question there.

 

It's certainly true that highly polled items are the being chosen, but at the same time, they are very clear commercial choices, that wouldn't necessarily need a poll to identify them to an astute manufacturer/commissioner.

 

It is certainly true that the poll is "free" market research for all comers, and I think very high-quality market research at that. I completely agree that, based on it's intrinsic quality, it might also be behind the high rates of duplication we are seeing.

 

The Adams Radial tank is a good example. It has scored in the top five of the wishlist poll for the last three years at least. The longer it was ignored, or at least passed over, the higher the probability that potential competitors would (possibly unknown to each other*) simultaneously start working on one.

 

* This aspect of duplication I don't really understand. Stipulating that collusion is wrong and that competitors are free to do what ever they like, with few preserved examples, the people who own/operate/maintain the prototypes must know when people show up to measure them. At some point some level of scuttlebutt must indicate interest by others, and I can only presume that the people who pursue duplicates must be doing so with better knowledge of what is going on than the average punter.  I have to assume that at some point someone (pre-announcement) is making the decision "to heck with it, I'm going to do a duplicate!". 

I think you will find that many in the industry have a pretty good idea what is going on around them and some of them take a degree of care to try to find out what others have on the go before they commit themselves as they can at least see who else might be likely to make a particular thing.  Similarly with many things that are being released now or are about to be released information can be gleaned from those who own or are custodians of the item involved as most manufacturers are likely to do at least some research on preserved examples.  But there are things upcoming in the marketplace where that has simply not happened and - unless someone is telling considerable porkies - those producing some models haven't been within a country mile of the prototype or haven't even got any original works drawings of it.

 

Now who then pays the price of their inattention to detail research because even a preserved item can yield some information, albeit to be treated with care of course?  Equally surely it is at least polite, and no doubt beneficial to the model, to get in  touch with whoever owns it at an early stage in development as such folk can often be a mine of considerably more information than might otherwise be available?  If that is happening and manufacturer No.2, or No.3, comes along at least the loco/vehicle owners can say 'so & so was here last month measuring that'.

 

Now I know that measuring something, or even spending a few thousand £s on scanning it, doesn't necessarily mean A, or B, or C will actually make it but at least there is knowledge that they might and you might avoid the situation which has arisen with the Adams radial where, presumably, three concerns are casting round for an alternative.

 

The other course is for someone to announce their programme a long way in advance to aid those who aren't 'tuned in' enough to work out what it is likely to be - but then there are repeated cries of 'it was announced X months/years ago so where is it?'  Seems that as we want ever more and the wishlists make those wants more obvious to more people this business of 'bouncing' those who have done the work on the point of their announcing their intention might get even worse  (I wonder if there are still two Q6s under development or did the other contender drop out when DJM announced their intentions?).

[BMacdermott]

Vielen Dank, Padishar

 

I'll check into why we didn't have the Super GUV. Rest assured that I have put it on the 2015 Agenda.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Andy Hayter]

 Equally surely it is at least polite, and no doubt beneficial to the model, to get in  touch with whoever owns it at an early stage in development as such folk can often be a mine of considerably more information than might otherwise be available?  If that is happening and manufacturer No.2, or No.3, comes along at least the loco/vehicle owners can say 'so & so was here last month measuring that'.

 

Now I know that measuring something, or even spending a few thousand £s on scanning it, doesn't necessarily mean A, or B, or C will actually make it but at least there is knowledge that they might and you might avoid the situation which has arisen with the Adams radial where, presumably, three concerns are casting round for an alternative.

 

 

 

 

I would have thought that the unannounced models that are in process might well be considered as commercially sensitive data and as such owners of measured stock might be asked not to reveal that their is already interest.

 

Clearly there are 2 schools of thought here, and Rapido made a big thing about their excursion into the UK market and their chosen model.  This should be enough to keep away any competitor, and could be seen as a good method of putting a stake in the ground.  But I wonder how long in advance Rapido were thinking about a UK entry, and that the APT could be an option before they made their visit to the UK to get a first hand look at those options.

 

Other producers might also be seen as sticking their stakes in the ground by announcing models well in advance of any chance of manufacture (Once upon a time it was 12 months, now it seems to be up to 3-4 years).  But again what is the level of pre-research, before any such announcement is made?

 

I think there is enough experience in the market in both the UK and the continent to show that duplicates on the market at the same time is generally bad for both (or more if it is triplication) producers.  This more so perhaps with locomotives than with loco hauled stock, where at least the different running numbers (assuming they are different) and lower prices than motive power may attract purchasers to buy from both.

[BMacdermott]

Dear All

 

One down.....721 to go.

 

Oxford Rail has just announced the Adams Radial which was in overall 8th place and 3rd in the SR steam loco category (00).

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[BMacdermott]

Can we have a separate section entitled 'Great Eastern Railway freight stock', please? (Or would that be GER ANYthing??) OK, Hornby J15 - but we haven't actually GOT any yet and it is slipping away to the spring...and I will have finished all my Gibson kits by then. OK, so the N7 (next after the J15s as I fish my Connoisseur kits out of the bank vault) did sneak in there while nobody was looking and there is a B12 lurking at the botttom, but most the frieght stock rattling about in Essex/Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire and nearby was of GER origin for years. Chiz as one was once nown to sa.

 

Best

Marcus of the lower fourth

 

Hello Marcus

 

There are a number of GER-specific items in The Poll. These include:

* J70

* J67/68/69

* N7

* B12

* E4

* F4/5/6

* J17

* J19

* J20

* Gangwayed 50ft coaches

* 20-ton Brake Van

* 10-ton Goods/Meat/Banana Van

 

Also for the GE section are:

* Quad Arts (not the same as the GN ones)

* Quint Arts

* Push-Pull Driving Trailers

* 52ft 6in Gresley stock

* Non-gangwayed stock (Diags.265 etc)

 

If you want to suggest specific items for us to consider, we are always pleased to hear - either on this thread, or to the Poll Team email as below.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

thepollteam(at)gmail(dot)com

[Mallard60022]

'Team'. Really appreciate your work on this. Some lovely choices near the top of the lists; well done everyone.

Phil (looking forward to the Bachman S15 and the Hornby Maunsell catering coaches).

P

[stewartingram]

Hello Marcus

 

There are a number of GER-specific items in The Poll. These include:

* J70

* J67/68/69

* N7

* B12

* E4

* F4/5/6

* J17

* J19

* J20

* Gangwayed 50ft coaches

* 20-ton Brake Van

* 10-ton Goods/Meat/Banana Van

 

Also for the GE section are:

* Quad Arts (not the same as the GN ones)

* Quint Arts

* Push-Pull Driving Trailers

* 52ft 6in Gresley stock

* Non-gangwayed stock (Diags.265 etc)

 

If you want to suggest specific items for us to consider, we are always pleased to hear - either on this thread, or to the Poll Team email as below.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

thepollteam(at)gmail(dot)com

You forgot the 109.

 

Stewart

[BMacdermott]

Hello Stewart

 

Indeed....but I was working on items that were 'steam era focused'.

 

We are including the Met-Cam 79xxx Units (fore-runner of Class 101) for next year.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)