Raw data sought - Nasmyth Wilson industrial locomotive

[PGC]

Just recently I have been looking through old copies of MRJ and found in issue 127 a picture of a Naysmyth Wilson industrial 0-8-0T locomotive. The picture was taken by Cyril Golding of Poulton-le-Fylde in Lancs - I trust I have not breached copyright by reproducing it below but if I have, I will willingly remove it.

 

 

I would really like to make a model of this loco, but to start off I obviously need to get raw data such as drawings, photographs etc. I believe the Naysmyth Wilson archives are held at NRM so I will be getting in touch with them, and the internet will obviously play a certain part on getting information (but won't be the total panacea of these ills) but are there any other sources of information and ways of getting information that people could point me to?

 

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

 

Phil

 

Edited November 11, 2014 by PGC

[skipepsi]

Perhaps adding the name and size of the loco in the topic title will get more responses. Were there two of these built for a particular system?

[Fat Controller]

Is it certain the loco's an 0-8-0t; Wikipedia's (I know..) list of production doesn't show an 0-8-0t, but does show a batch of 6 2-6-0ts built for the Bombay Port Trust in 1913. These were 5'6" gauge. If the NRM haven't got the archives, they may have been deposited with whoever runs the local Archive for Paticroft. 

[Adam]

Is it certain the loco's an 0-8-0t; Wikipedia's (I know..) list of production doesn't show an 0-8-0t, but does show a batch of 6 2-6-0ts built for the Bombay Port Trust in 1913. These were 5'6" gauge. If the NRM haven't got the archives, they may have been deposited with whoever runs the local Archive for Paticroft. 

 

Definitely an 0-8-0T. There were two of these, I think, one went by the name of Emanuel Clegg but the other? They were used somewhere in the Manchester area and receive a mention here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76110-moving-coal-a-colliery-layout-in-0-gauge/?p=1223162 

 

The Manchester Museum of Science and Industry has a works pic'

 

http://emu.msim.org.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=13355

 

Someone else has modelled one:

 

http://www.prestonogauge.org.uk/page5.php?ImageGalleryPage=6&view=preview&category=0&image=63

 

Adam

[avonside1563]

I was just typing up a similar reply Adam but you beat me too it!

[Adam]

Sorry Nigel! Interesting locos these, nicely plain and chunky.

 

Adam

Edited November 11, 2014 by Adam

[skipepsi]

Thanks Adrian that confirms that in the dustbin of my brain are still some facts....

[PGC]

Thanks to the people who have replied, especially Adam. Fat controller, Yes, Wikipedia is definitely wrong (No, surely not!     ), the loco in the picture is Emanuel Clegg, was one of a pair that were built for Gin Pit, South Lancashire. The loco in the RM Web thread Adam gave the link to doesn't have the outside valve gear, which makes me wonder if it's different class of loco, that, yet again, has been missed from the Wikipedia data!

 

I have already written to NRM - it seems that they have all the works drawings, in which case I will hopefully get a copy and then I can start learning how to produce an etched kit, but for those of you who are interested in this, don't expect miracles but do learn the art of patience!

 

Phil

[Adam]

Thanks to the people who have replied, especially Adam. Fat controller, Yes, Wikipedia is definitely wrong (No, surely not!     ), the loco in the picture is Emanuel Clegg, was one of a pair that were built for Gin Pit, South Lancashire. The loco in the RM Web thread Adam gave the link to doesn't have the outside valve gear, which makes me wonder if it's different class of loco, that, yet again, has been missed from the Wikipedia data!

 

I have already written to NRM - it seems that they have all the works drawings, in which case I will hopefully get a copy and then I can start learning how to produce an etched kit, but for those of you who are interested in this, don't expect miracles but do learn the art of patience!

 

Phil

 

If you read the post on the other thread (rather than simply look at the picture), you will see that the relevance is that the Manning, Wardle shown there (so yes, totally different loco, and a one off) was the only other 0-8-0T built for industrial use in England. 

 

Adam

[PGC]

If you read the post on the other thread (rather than simply look at the picture), you will see that the relevance is that the Manning, Wardle shown there (so yes, totally different loco, and a one off) was the only other 0-8-0T built for industrial use in England. 

 

Adam

 

Sorry, Adam, perhaps I should have read the post, but I've seen the article so many times while I've been looking for information about Emanuel Clegg that I glossed over it rather than read it when you posted the link. Apologies.

 

Phil

[Arthur]

It's sister was called 'Maden' and it was withdrawn considerably earlier than Emmanuel Clegg, which survived into the 1950's. Naysmyth Wlisons Patricroft works was only a few miles from Gin Pit near Tyldesley. There was a steep bank from the pit yard up to the LNWR line between Partricroft and Wigan hence the need for powerful, sure footed, locomotives.

 

The Manning Wardle 0-8-0t is usually considered as an attempt to 'keep up with the Jones's' by the neighbouring Ellesmere collieries. Their larger system, later better known as that radiating from Walkden Workshops, had long runs and steep banks. The locomotive, unlike the Naysmyth Wilsons, wasn't considered a great success. It's large side tanks made it top heavy and it rolled over on one occasion, the LMS supplying a breakdown crane to recover it. Following that, it's tanks were cut down.

 

I've some other photographs of Emmanuel Clegg, I'll check on their copyright then try to get some copies to you Phil.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Arthur

[Adam]

No worries Phil, good luck with your researches, look forward to seeing the model in due course!

 

Adam

[Castleacreshunter]

In steam locomotives in industry published by David Charles there is a picture of Emanuel Clegg built by Nasmyth Wilson in 1924,scrapped in 1965.As has been said earlier two were built for Gin Pit,and the Manning Wardle were the only 8 coupled tanks built for British industry.   

[EddieB]

As Arthur says, Nasmyth Wilson supplied two 0-8-0Ts to the Astley & Tyldesley Colliery.  Both were standard gauge, 3'6" driving wheels, cylinders 17" diameter x 23" stroke.  The first, MADEN, was NW works number 918 of 1910, the second, EMMANUEL CLEGG, was 1419 of 1924.

[Respite]

There have been three articles about the Gin Pit System in past copies of the Industrial Railway Record which are available to order online from the Industrial Railway Society website.

 

Cyril Golding died some years ago, his collection of photographs is now with the IRS.

There have also been one or two photographs of the Nasmyth locos in past editions of Railway Bylines.

 

The Manning Wardle loco from the Walkden system was swapped with one of the Nasmyths so that they could be tested and comparisons made. However the verdict was that the Manning was still a poor machine! It had a very small smokebox and coal had to be shovelled from the bunker which had a shovelling plate at floor level up to a high firehole, so it wasn't liked for that either.

 

The nature of the work at Gin Pit required outgoing coal to be hauled up a steep gradient to Jacksons (exchange) sidings at Tyldesley. The job was a kille,r with an increasingly steep gradient and a sharp left hand bend at the top where many a trip stalled. The Nasmyths were a great success, however they were gradually superseded by austerity locos which although they couldn't match the haulage abilities of the 0-8-Ts they were faster.

[Marshall5]

It's sister was called 'Maden' and it was withdrawn considerably earlier than Emmanuel Clegg, which survived into the 1950's.

 

As a kid, in 1961, Cyril Golding took me to Gin Pit to see these locos and my recollection also was that 'Maden' had already been withdrawn and 'Emanuel Clegg' was still in use. However, recently re-reading 'The Industrial Railways of Bolton, Bury and the Manchester coalfield' by Jim Peden et al it states  ".both were taken out of service in 1958. Emanuel Clegg stood out of use for several years and was broken up in 1965. Maden was eventually returned to traffic and lasted until 1962". Hope this helps. Ray.

[col07768]

Possibly of interest to this forum is the 080 French tank manufactured by Jouef in 2 different versions, open and closed cab. I have used the works photo of Emanuel Clegg scaled to 4mm using a photocopier from the wheel dimensions and the wheelbase and valve gear looks to be almost spot on. Not very scientific but near enough for me! The cylinders are slightly different and the wheels are not the same appearance. They are also slightly too small but a ready made chassis would make construction easier. Everything above the chassis would have to be scratch built.

I have owned and repaired a number of the Jouef tanks, the original version was made for Playcraft international and had a 3 pole motor, pick up from only two axles and a gear drive. They also have peco type couplings. I have installed extra pick ups on mine and they run very well.

The later version sold under the Jouef brand has continental couplings, five pole motor and a (usually) poor rubber band drive instead of the gears. They also have pick ups on three axles. These tend to run much better when properly set up but when the rubber band slips thy don't move at all. A Hornby class 58 traction tyre is approximately the same size and I have used them to replace the Jouef original.

 

Colin

[5050]

If you read the post on the other thread (rather than simply look at the picture), you will see that the relevance is that the Manning, Wardle shown there (so yes, totally different loco, and a one off) was the only other 0-8-0T built for industrial use in England. 

 

Adam

It went by the name 'Katharine'.  I have a nice photo of it picked up at the Manchester Show in December.  Probably taken around the time of withdrawal as the rods have been removed.

[industrial john]

Supplied new to the Astley and tyldesley collieries, maden was delivered 1910, and Emanuel clegg 1924(courtesy part 2, the industrial railways of Bolton bury and the Manchester coalfield)

[Osgood]

Definitely an 0-8-0T. There were two of these, I think, one went by the name of Emanuel Clegg but the other? They were used somewhere in the Manchester area and receive a mention here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/76110-moving-coal-a-colliery-layout-in-0-gauge/?p=1223162 

 

The Manchester Museum of Science and Industry has a works pic'

 

http://emu.msim.org.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=13355

 

Someone else has modelled one:

 

http://www.prestonogauge.org.uk/page5.php?ImageGalleryPage=6&view=preview&category=0&image=63

 

Adam

 

Just tried to find this works photo from the link above.

 

I have to say the search facility on their website is spectacularly poor, and I don't have time to work through 17,000 odd hits for "naysmith wilson works photograph".

 

Any clues anyone?

[PGH]

Osgood,

This may be the photo you are looking for.  I must have downloaded it some time ago and unfortunately didn't record the source.  Its only a low resolution image and it would be nice to obtain a better quality image if the negative is still in existence.

 

 

 

I visited Gin Pit twice in 1964 and saw and photographed EMANUEL CLEGG, just the "usual" three quarter front views.  Its a big regret that I didn't take more interest in the loco then and I wish I'd taken more photos, detail photos and measurements.  Of course at that time there was still plenty to see in South Lancashire and trips to the area were designed to see as much as possible in the day, usually a Saturday.

 

Both the 0-8-0Ts at Gin Pit were withdrawn in 1958.  There are published accounts that say MADEN saw further use after that date and repairs were actually commenced, but they were never completed.  By that date heavy locomotive overhauls in the Manchester Area were carried out in the newly extended locomotive repair shop at Walkden Central Workshops.  The Lowca 0-6-0T  T.B.WOOD had been sent from Gin to Walkden for repair in 1957, but Walkden decided it wasn't worth repairing and scrapped it.  Possibly fearing the same might happen to MADEN repairs were commenced at Gin.  The loco was stripped down and the boiler sent to a private contractor for assessment.  The wheels were sent to Walkden where they were noted by Cyril Golding in March 1959.  Reports of several visits by Industrial Railway Society (or Birmingham Locomotive Club, Industrial Locomotive Information Section as it was then) members to Gin between 1958 and 1961 confirm that the loco was never re-assembled and in December 1961 it was described as "frame only in shed, other parts outside for scrap".

 

The remains of MADEN were sold for scrap in 1962.  EMANUEL CLEGG was also sold for scrap in 1962 to a different scrap merchant but it was 3 years before the loco was actually broken up as Salford Museum had a proposal to preserve it along with a tram.  However the proposal fell through, the loco was scrapped and the tram went to the USA.

 

 

 

The 7mm scale model of EMANUEL CLEGG shown in the link in Post #4 above on the Preston 0 Gauge Group's website has visited my 'Moving Coal' layout and made an interesting comparison with the Manning Wardle 0-8-0T KATHARINE.

[Osgood]

Many thanks PGH!

 

Tony

[Osgood]

And an advert from the useful Grace's Guide website -

 

[Arthur]

 

Our school badge, essentially the Eccles Borough crest (of which Patricroft was part), included a steam hammer in recognition of Nasmyth's invention of said device at the Bridgwater Foundry.

 

.

[Barclay]

Osgood,

This may be the photo you are looking for.  I must have downloaded it some time ago and unfortunately didn't record the source.  Its only a low resolution image and it would be nice to obtain a better quality image if the negative is still in existence.

 

EC works photoB.jpg

 

 

I visited Gin Pit twice in 1964 and saw and photographed EMANUEL CLEGG, just the "usual" three quarter front views.  Its a big regret that I didn't take more interest in the loco then and I wish I'd taken more photos, detail photos and measurements.  Of course at that time there was still plenty to see in South Lancashire and trips to the area were designed to see as much as possible in the day, usually a Saturday.

 

Both the 0-8-0Ts at Gin Pit were withdrawn in 1958.  There are published accounts that say MADEN saw further use after that date and repairs were actually commenced, but they were never completed.  By that date heavy locomotive overhauls in the Manchester Area were carried out in the newly extended locomotive repair shop at Walkden Central Workshops.  The Lowca 0-6-0T  T.B.WOOD had been sent from Gin to Walkden for repair in 1957, but Walkden decided it wasn't worth repairing and scrapped it.  Possibly fearing the same might happen to MADEN repairs were commenced at Gin.  The loco was stripped down and the boiler sent to a private contractor for assessment.  The wheels were sent to Walkden where they were noted by Cyril Golding in March 1959.  Reports of several visits by Industrial Railway Society (or Birmingham Locomotive Club, Industrial Locomotive Information Section as it was then) members to Gin between 1958 and 1961 confirm that the loco was never re-assembled and in December 1961 it was described as "frame only in shed, other parts outside for scrap".

 

The remains of MADEN were sold for scrap in 1962.  EMANUEL CLEGG was also sold for scrap in 1962 to a different scrap merchant but it was 3 years before the loco was actually broken up as Salford Museum had a proposal to preserve it along with a tram.  However the proposal fell through, the loco was scrapped and the tram went to the USA.

 

 

Emanuel Clegg + Katharine on Moving Coal Layout.jpg

 

The 7mm scale model of EMANUEL CLEGG shown in the link in Post #4 above on the Preston 0 Gauge Group's website has visited my 'Moving Coal' layout and made an interesting comparison with the Manning Wardle 0-8-0T KATHARINE.

 

Hi PGH - It was the builder of that 7mm version shown on your layout who kindly sent me his own drawings of the loco., enabling me to build an EM version. I've attached a photo. for comparison.