Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

[bike2steam]

When talking to some exGW men about loco classes they only referred to them by the first two numbers such as 47 for the class we're talking about,the xx suffix was an enthusiast addition, even Castle class locos were referred to as either 40, or 50.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The last duty for the last member of the class (I think it was 4704)in early 64, the curve on the climb to Central was the problem, the 47 could only proceed up it dead slow, control was worried about stalling so a couple of those type 2 hydraulics were put behind to bank it up gently(ish).

I have seen a minimum radius at normal speed of 8 chains or 7 chains at slow speed quoted for the 47xx. This compares with 7 chains / 6 chains for a 28xx and 6chains / 4.5 chains for the Stanier and WD 2-8-0s so along with the weight, the chassis was very restrictive on route availability.

[Unknown Warrior]

This 'Night Owl' appellation is new to me too. Does anybody have an 'old' reference quoting this nickname? Just curious.

I had a long and detailed discussion with The GWR Study Group at Warley today and our conclusion was that the "Night Owl" name originated in the 1950's in "Spotting Circles." Certainly in BR Days. I will continue to research this and report back as I get anymore info. I look forward to other comments!

[Allegheny1600]

I have a feeling it will arrive with a hefty price tag - although the day of the £200 r-t-r loco is drawing ever closer.

Absolutely Mike!

Then, add nearly another £100 or so for a decent sound decoder and one would have a sublime model, well worth it imho. For once I'm not going to bang on about comparable Euro model prices now as it might soon be time to shelve those ideas! I would far rather have "just enough" quality models that look and run brilliantly than a fleet of average models any day.

So!

In order to tie in with other future models, would an early BR version or a 'proper' GWR version be better for me, I wonder!?!

Cheers,

John E.

[Unknown Warrior]

Visited the Heljan Stand at Warley today and didn't really get much more info. I got the impression that we will have to wait until next year before getting anymore details.

[bike2steam]

'TheSignalEngineer' - The larger the diameter of the wheels, the longer the wheel base, the bigger the minimum radius, that's the problem with the 47, so limiting the route availability for what was a mixed traffic loco class ( 5 foot 8 inch) instead of for those with a freight driving wheel diameter ( 4 foot 7 & 1/2 inch).

Edited November 23, 2014 by bike2steam

[gwrrob]

Visited the Heljan Stand at Warley today and didn't really get much more info. I got the impression that we will have to wait until next year before getting anymore details.

 

They told me that it's too early to ask what liveries and numbers will be done.

[Dunsignalling]

The last duty for the last member of the class (I think it was 4704)in early 64, the curve on the climb to Central was the problem, the 47 could only proceed up it dead slow, control was worried about stalling so a couple of those type 2 hydraulics were put behind to bank it up gently(ish).

That last trip was (IIRC) piloted by a BR 4MT tank. I saw it quite by chance on my way to or from an appointment at the old West of England Eye Infirmary.

 

It was some years later that I learned of its significance but had seen 47s on the duty a couple of times before that though my notebooks in which I recorded their pilots have long since vanished.

 

I also remember the working being double headed on at least one occasion by a Hall and a Grange.

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

When talking to some exGW men about loco classes they only referred to them by the first two numbers such as 47 for the class we're talking about,the xx suffix was an enthusiast addition, even Castle class locos were referred to as either 40, or 50.

The 'XX' suffix was used in official documentation - without going through minute books (unlikely to be the sort that show it in any case) the earliest example I have immediately to hand is the 1927 loads booklet for passenger and parcels etc trains which as it happens doesn't include the 47XX although it does include such interesting things as the 22XX (4-4-0 'County') and allows the same loads for the 29XX, 43XX, and 31XX !!

 

I have seen a minimum radius at normal speed of 8 chains or 7 chains at slow speed quoted for the 47xx. This compares with 7 chains / 6 chains for a 28xx and 6chains / 4.5 chains for the Stanier and WD 2-8-0s so along with the weight, the chassis was very restrictive on route availability.

 

 

'TheSignalEngineer' - The larger the diameter of the wheels, the longer the wheel base, the bigger the minimum radius, that's the problem with the 47, so limiting the route availability for what was a mixed traffic loco class ( 5 foot 8 inch) instead of for those with a freight driving wheel diameter ( 4 foot 7 & 1/2 inch).

The 47XX were quite seriously restricted on route availability being barred from numerous yard sidings etc where the 4-6-0s were allowed plus some serious mainline restrictions as well as they were not permitted to cross the Royal Albert Bridge, were not permitted beyond Beachley Jcn on the Gloucester - Severn Tunnel Jcn route, were not permitted beyond Patchway on the Severn Tunnel route or indeed anywhere in South Wales, were not permitted beyond Worcester on the Oxford - Hereford route, not permitted between Shrewsbury and Hereford or between Bristol and Barnt Green over the former Midland route, not permitted on the West London Line, not permitted Maidenhead to High Wycombe ('Castles' were), , not permitted to Avonmouth Docks via any route, not permitted between Mangotsfield and Bath Green Park, but they were allowed right through to Chester, not permitted Castle Cary to Weymouth. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[Welchester]

 although it does include such interesting things as the 22XX (4-4-0 'County')

 

Wasn't the 22xx the 4-4-2T?

[bike2steam]

That last trip was (IIRC) piloted by a BR 4MT tank. I saw it quite by chance on my way to or from an appointment at the old West of England Eye Infirmary.

John

You've probably got a better memory than me then.

[Gilwell Park]

Hi.

 

When I was train spotting in the late 50s - early 60s they were always known as 47s. The Brush type 4s not having been invented. The RCTS books make no reference to a nick-name. The comprehensive article on the class by R C Riley in the Jan 1966 Railway World does not mention the name, although it does give the names of the express goods they regularly pulled. The J H Russell book of 1975 refers to them as "Night Vacuum" engines although I think that refers to the trains they pulled rather than the engines themselves.  I therefore think that " Night Owl" is an invented name of recent origin.

 

Roger.

[The Great Bear]

The 'XX' suffix was used in official documentation - without going through minute books (unlikely to be the sort that show it in any case) the earliest example I have immediately to hand is the 1927 loads booklet for passenger and parcels etc trains which as it happens doesn't include the 47XX although it does include such interesting things as the 22XX (4-4-0 'County') and allows the same loads for the 29XX, 43XX, and 31XX !!

 

 

 

The 47XX were quite seriously restricted on route availability being barred from numerous yard sidings etc where the 4-6-0s were allowed plus some serious mainline restrictions as well as they were not permitted to cross the Royal Albert Bridge, were not permitted beyond Beachley Jcn on the Gloucester - Severn Tunnel Jcn route, were not permitted beyond Patchway on the Severn Tunnel route or indeed anywhere in South Wales, were not permitted beyond Worcester on the Oxford - Hereford route, not permitted between Shrewsbury and Hereford or between Bristol and Barnt Green over the former Midland route, not permitted on the West London Line, not permitted Maidenhead to High Wycombe ('Castles' were), , not permitted to Avonmouth Docks via any route, not permitted between Mangotsfield and Bath Green Park, but they were allowed right through to Chester, not permitted Castle Cary to Weymouth. 

 

What routes did they work on (regularly)? I think, with my layout being set Oxford-Banbury I miss out, same as I do with the Kings. Good for my wallet, unless I succomb to rule no.1

 

Thanks

 

Jon

[Unknown Warrior]

What routes did they work on (regularly)? I think, with my layout being set Oxford-Banbury I miss out, same as I do with the Kings. Good for my wallet, unless I succomb to rule no.1

 

Thanks

 

Jon

There was an excellent two part article in Steam Days, May /July 2013 by Richard Woodley which details the working of these excellent locomotives during the whole of their long and distinguished careers. A must read for anyone interested in them.

[Andy M]

Wasn't 'Night Owl' the title of the Philip Hawkins painting of a 47xx at Exeter St David's? I'm not saying that is where it originated from but it may have influenced recent parlance.

 

Andy.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Wasn't 'Night Owl' the title of the Philip Hawkins painting of a 47xx at Exeter St David's? I'm not saying that is where it originated from but it may have influenced recent parlance.

 

Andy.

It is sold as "Night Freight". http://www.quicksilverpublishing.co.uk/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34_27&products_id=64

[ed 66 plant]

I believe they were called night owls because a lot of their work was done through the night pulling fast freight. 

I,ll dig a little deeper to see if I can add more.

regards,Ed

[The Stationmaster]

Wasn't the 22xx the 4-4-2T?

Seems I shouldn't look at old publications late at night - it actually reads "County," 22XX, 102-3-4  - and I ought to engage brain as well.  (and before anyone asks the big engines were listed as 40XX, no class names for them).

 

What routes did they work on (regularly)? I think, with my layout being set Oxford-Banbury I miss out, same as I do with the Kings. Good for my wallet, unless I succomb to rule no.1

 

Thanks

 

Jon

They certainly worked to Wolverhampton Jon - and I think probably beyond as they were allowed through to Chester - and they were allowed via both routes north of Oxford.  The only question is whether the trains they worked that way ran via Oxford or the New Line (via Bicester) but I don't think that matters as trains could well be diverted for whatever reason you care to come up with.

 

Fortunately for my pocket they were not permitted into South Wales nor on the North & West Line  

Edited November 24, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[buffalo]

Wasn't the 22xx the 4-4-2T?

 

No, they were always the 2221 class. There had been a 2201 class (2201-2220), Dean 2-4-0s, but the last of those had gone by 1921. The 4-4-0 Counties were the 38XX class, although 3800 and 3831-9 had been 3473-82 before the 1912 renumbering.

 

Seems I shouldn't look at old publications late at night - it actually reads "County," 22XX, 102-3-4  - and I ought to engage brain as well.  (and before anyone asks the big engines were listed as 40XX, no class names for them)....

 

So, did they really mean the County tanks, or am I missing something?

 

Nick

[Coach bogie]

 

 

They certainly worked to Wolverhampton Jon - and I think probably beyond as they were allowed through to Chester -

 And beyond with regular working to Birkenhead docks. 4704 being allocated to Birkenhead on occasions

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Simon Moore]

 I have a feeling it will arrive with a hefty price tag - although the day of the £200 r-t-r loco is drawing ever closer.

I'm Already paying well over £200 for a rtr loco. My last purchase ( Bemo Allegra ) Was nearly £500. Bemo do use Mashima motors though & they are a work of art. I just hope when British rtr starts to creep in at around £200 they have decent motors etc instead of a cheap can motor.

 

Simon

[brian daniels]

What routes did they work on (regularly)? I think, with my layout being set Oxford-Banbury I miss out, same as I do with the Kings. Good for my wallet, unless I succomb to rule no.1

 

Thanks

 

Jon

 

I have a print somewhere of one on the up passing Radley.

[BrushVeteran]

Whilst helping out at the Warley Show I had the opportunity to discuss the 47XX with an ex. Oxford fireman and he confirmed that the term 'Night Owl' was often used by most Oxford men when referring to members of this class. It maybe that this was originally a localised name in much the same way as 'Tango' was to Grantham men when referring to the O2. During the weekend we were visited by some other ex.Oxford men and certainly they had known the class as 'Night Owls', owing to their nocturnal workings.

 

As the model's research has been conceived in Oxfordshire then I would imagine that the nickname has come from part of that exercise ................ not as a result of scanning photographs and drawings at night!

[The Stationmaster]

No, they were always the 2221 class. There had been a 2201 class (2201-2220), Dean 2-4-0s, but the last of those had gone by 1921. The 4-4-0 Counties were the 38XX class, although 3800 and 3831-9 had been 3473-82 before the 1912 renumbering.

 

 

So, did they really mean the County tanks, or am I missing something?

 

Nick

I reckon they meant the County Tanks Nick.  There were some very odd things like that in some of the GWR class descriptions in official documentation - both then and later - I'll PM some of them from 1827 to you later on as I'm off out shortly and they'll be a bit out of place in this thread I think.

[TrevorP1]

When talking to some exGW men about loco classes they only referred to them by the first two numbers such as 47 for the class we're talking about,the xx suffix was an enthusiast addition, even Castle class locos were referred to as either 40, or 50.

 

Interesting and makes sense. In a different era I understand railwaymen referred to 'Westerns' as 'thousands'.

 

My feeling is that the name 'Night Owl' was coined by the enthusiast press, just like - as has already been noted - 'Taffy Tank' and even worse, 'Flat Top' for an original West Country.