Hornby LSWR M7 245

[Nearholmer]

Agreed.

 

I'm only an armchair LSWR coach enthusiast, but those books are seriously interesting, and serious pieces of scholarship.

 

It was a sad day when our local library rationalised their collection, and let-go the copies that I'd borrowed multiple times. My guess is that they bought the wrong thing in the first place, and eventually realised that the big carriage works just down the road had belonged to the NORTH Western, not the SOUTH Western.

 

K

[Scottest]

Good luck with it all, and I hope we see the results posted on RMWeb.

 

The 3 volumes cover (1) Up to 1900, which is important because it includes all the non-bogie stock plus the 1890s bogies coaches, which lasted a long time , (2) 1900 onwards, including vehicles built after grouping, and (3) Brakes/NPCs

 

I believe they are all out of print, and vol. 2, LSWR Carriages in the Twentieth Century, is hard to find for under £100.  The other 2 should be in the £20-35 range.  I guess a lot of people assumed they'd only need the volume dealing with 20th Century coaches.  They are missing out if they neglect the other 2 IMHO.

 

When I grow up, I want one of these (built and painted in this case by Mr C R Phillips):

 

Regarding the representation of LSWR Coach salmon and brown, this topic generated much sensible debate at the Circle Meetings at Keen House from the 1970s onwards, and the members attending would hang on Gordon's words. Eventually Gordon was able to publish the first of his books on Coaching Stock. He (Gordon) explained how he had gone to great lengths to reproduce the two coach colours on the dust wrapper of Vol 1. (I still have mine, cherished and in fine condition). The spine of the wrapper has faded a little over the period since, but the original colours - out of daylight - survive and I consider them to be as reliable now as when Gordon first approved them for publication.

 

Scottest.

[Edwardian]

415 lswr coaches.jpg

 

A Hornby M7 will pull 4 coaches, if they are very light like these old Triang/Hornby clerestory ones. They do now have replacement metal tyred wheels, (the square axle Hornby ones), but the current turned metal wheel sets may be a future step.

 

 

 

 

415 lswr coaches.jpg

 

This is the look I'm going for once the roofs are cut back or replaced with non-clerestory ones. and coaches  are repainted in LSWR colours.

 

 

 

P1180340.JPG

 

The roof vents (and lamps?) look like this. Looking at your pics I think they are gas lamps?

 

 

 

 

P1180341.JPG

 

This is the end view.

 

P1180342.JPG

 

Don't know who made these, they've been in the parts box for years. Had some ABS ones once but they were 7mm and I never went that way.

 

 

.Apologies for confusing T1 and O2!    A rather elegant loco.

 

Thanks for info, very useful.

 

A good point there by Scottest, yet another reason to buy volume 1.

 

Another reason, is this:

 

If you are prepared to cut and shut (and build just 3 incy-wincy sections of side(!)) you can use the Triangs to form a pukka branch set for your Radial and M7.

 

Your post prompted me to return to Volume 1, as I had a feeling that the Triangs would work best as short 1890s bogie coaches.  I know that the Triangs as LSW stock is not a new dodge, but I've not looked into the possibilities before, so it's new to me!

 

May I start by giving you three pieces of good news:

 

• One problem you have with the Triangs is that there is nothing helpful for representing the lavatory compartments that seem to have been so relatively plentiful in SW non-corridor stock - but I have identified 3 lavless prototypes that work together.

 

• Further good news is that the panel style is consistent with SW practice.  For instance, the waist panels are at the same height, and Third and Second Class compartment spacings are a reasonable match.

 

• In fact, as I have just started trying to convert Triangs into pukka GW Van Thirds, I assure you, it looks easier to make a LSW branch set than it does to turn the coaches into anything resembling a GW diagram!

 

And one piece of bad:

 

• You would need 8' Fox bogies.  Mailcoach produced plastic ones.  They are ostensibly available separately from the Cooperdaft website.  Good luck with that.  247 Developments once upon a time produced white-metal ones, but I believe the new management is still looking into what bogies they may be able to obtain (they don't have the moulds).

 

Back to the coaches.  In 1909, the SW took a number of 42' Thirds and 45' Tri-Composites dating from the early 1890s and converted them to Brake Thirds and Brake Compos respectively.  They were formed in pairs for branch work.  Some had an arc roof, and some the more recent semi-elliptical (like the Roxey coaches).  The pairs had matching roof profiles.

 

One of the arc roof sets is pictured at Lyme Regis, nicely in time for your Radial to arrive in 1914.  I have not researched the branch, and am not the person to tell you what coaching stock ran on it, but judging from the picture they did have one of the sets from circa 1909.   

 

(1) The Brake Third.  For this you require 1 Triang brake coach.  The Third Class compartment spacings are a good match and you have enough of them.  The double luggage doors and 3 blind panels, ditto. The bit in between (3 blind panels, projection/ducket and Guard's door) you cut out and discard.  Replace it with a wider SW style ducket and a narrow vertical strip of blind panelling. The resulting coach is a little shorter that the Triang.  If modelling the arc roof, I suggest the Ratio Midland Suburban coaches have ends and sides that are likely to be of a similar profile (but I have not checked).

 

(2) The Brake Composite.  For this you require 1 Triang brake coach and 1 non-brake coach. The brake end is exactly like the Brake Third: End section of your Triang brake plus the narrow panel and ducket section you will need to build.  You will find that the Triang non-brake coach has compartments that work well for Second Class.  To reproduce the next 4 compartments (Second, First, First, Second) just take 2 pairs of the Triang compartments and add a thin sliver between them to give you the additional width between the 2 First Class compartments.  Then add a Third Class compartment from your Triang brake coach.

 

That is all you need do.  And, I suggest, even Hornby's M7 could pull it!

 

Weddell says that later, these sets were often strengthened by inserting a 48' Third in between, though the only photographs he shows of this arrangement date from Southern days.  These Thirds date from 1894 and have the semi-elliptical roof profile. Weddell has 2 photos from Southern days.  One shows the Third inserted between an arc-roofed pair, and the other between a semi-elliptical-roofed pair.

 

You will guess that this conversion involves compartments from 2 Triang brake coaches in order to make up the 8 compartments you need.

 

I hope this assists.

 

In fact, I'm minded to have a go myself!

[brossard]

I put my oar in and suggest this book for liveries:

 

 

of particular interest are paint chips at the back:

 

 

I used this to create the 1912 version of LSWR salmon.

 

 

One of the rake of 5 from Roxey.

 

John

[railroadbill]

I put my oar in and suggest this book for liveries:

 

 

of particular interest are paint chips at the back:

 

 

I used this to create the 1912 version of LSWR salmon.

 

 

One of the rake of 5 from Roxey.

 

John

Looks a very useful book, particularly the colour patches.  Pity some very useful reference books go out of print and disappear.  The Roxey coach looks very good as well, been looking at their web site and they still do a good selection of LSWR stock.

The pic of the Roxey coach is very useful as it shows the right type of roof ventilators and gas lamps which I needed to know.

 

 

A good point there by Scottest, yet another reason to buy volume 1.

 

Another reason, is this:

 

If you are prepared to cut and shut (and build just 3 incy-wincy sections of side(!)) you can use the Triangs to form a pukka branch set for your Radial and M7.

 

Your post prompted me to return to Volume 1, as I had a feeling that the Triangs would work best as short 1890s bogie coaches.  I know that the Triangs as LSW stock is not a new dodge, but I've not looked into the possibilities before, so it's new to me!

 

May I start by giving you three pieces of good news:

 

• One problem you have with the Triangs is that there is nothing helpful for representing the lavatory compartments that seem to have been so relatively plentiful in SW non-corridor stock - but I have identified 3 lavless prototypes that work together.

 

• Further good news is that the panel style is consistent with SW practice.  For instance, the waist panels are at the same height, and Third and Second Class compartment spacings are a reasonable match.

 

• In fact, as I have just started trying to convert Triangs into pukka GW Van Thirds, I assure you, it looks easier to make a LSW branch set than it does to turn the coaches into anything resembling a GW diagram!

 

And one piece of bad:

 

• You would need 8' Fox bogies.  Mailcoach produced plastic ones.  They are ostensibly available separately from the Cooperdaft website.  Good luck with that.  247 Developments once upon a time produced white-metal ones, but I believe the new management is still looking into what bogies they may be able to obtain (they don't have the moulds).

 

Back to the coaches.  In 1909, the SW took a number of 42' Thirds and 45' Tri-Composites dating from the early 1890s and converted them to Brake Thirds and Brake Compos respectively.  They were formed in pairs for branch work.  Some had an arc roof, and some the more recent semi-elliptical (like the Roxey coaches).  The pairs had matching roof profiles.

 

One of the arc roof sets is pictured at Lyme Regis, nicely in time for your Radial to arrive in 1914.  I have not researched the branch, and am not the person to tell you what coaching stock ran on it, but judging from the picture they did have one of the sets from circa 1909.   

 

(1) The Brake Third.  For this you require 1 Triang brake coach.  The Third Class compartment spacings are a good match and you have enough of them.  The double luggage doors and 3 blind panels, ditto. The bit in between (3 blind panels, projection/ducket and Guard's door) you cut out and discard.  Replace it with a wider SW style ducket and a narrow vertical strip of blind panelling. The resulting coach is a little shorter that the Triang.  If modelling the arc roof, I suggest the Ratio Midland Suburban coaches have ends and sides that are likely to be of a similar profile (but I have not checked).

 

(2) The Brake Composite.  For this you require 1 Triang brake coach and 1 non-brake coach. The brake end is exactly like the Brake Third: End section of your Triang brake plus the narrow panel and ducket section you will need to build.  You will find that the Triang non-brake coach has compartments that work well for Second Class.  To reproduce the next 4 compartments (Second, First, First, Second) just take 2 pairs of the Triang compartments and add a thin sliver between them to give you the additional width between the 2 First Class compartments.  Then add a Third Class compartment from your Triang brake coach.

 

That is all you need do.  And, I suggest, even Hornby's M7 could pull it!

 

Weddell says that later, these sets were often strengthened by inserting a 48' Third in between, though the only photographs he shows of this arrangement date from Southern days.  These Thirds date from 1894 and have the semi-elliptical roof profile. Weddell has 2 photos from Southern days.  One shows the Third inserted between an arc-roofed pair, and the other between a semi-elliptical-roofed pair.

 

You will guess that this conversion involves compartments from 2 Triang brake coaches in order to make up the 8 compartments you need.

 

I hope this assists.

 

In fact, I'm minded to have a go myself!

Brilliant, thanks for that Edwardian. I've printed off your post. Sorting through my old MRCs to find more Weddell drawings. I was originally thinking of a quick repaint of re roofed Triang coaches but it looks like they could be made more authentic with a bit of cut and shut.

Haven't got the precision paint yet but trip to local model shop planned first.

 

Thanks to both,

Bill

[brossard]

Agree about books going out of print Bill, a proper shame and some of them really should be reprinted.  I got this one from a second hand stand at a show.  It came from the CN library and there was more than one copy because my friend got one too.

 

I built the coach with the bits supplied.  I assumed Roxey knew the correct ventilators and lamps.  I always like to see how others have tackled a particular model but with the caveat that what someone else has done is not necessarily right.

 

John

[asmay2002]

You would need 8' Fox bogies.  Mailcoach produced plastic ones.  They are ostensibly available separately from the Cooperdaft website.  Good luck with that.  247 Developments once upon a time produced white-metal ones, but I believe the new management is still looking into what bogies they may be able to obtain (they don't have the moulds).

 Try Dart/MJT "GNR" Fox bogies. which should be almost identical.

[Edwardian]

 Try Dart/MJT "GNR" Fox bogies. which should be almost identical.

 

Thanks.  These may, indeed, be the answer, though if I had a choice, I would choose to avoid the extra expense and faff of cosmetic sides and brass frames.

[jwealleans]

I would choose to avoid the extra expense and faff of cosmetic sides and brass frames.

Been down that line of thought... what you have to put up with in faff is more than outweighed by the strength, weight and smooth running of the result.

 

We're putting our carriages at Ormesby Hall onto MJT bogies on a gradual basis and the improvement in running is significant.

[railroadbill]

Now got the Precison paint tins, P411 salmon and P412 coach brown.  From the splashes on the lids, the salmon is a slightly more pinky version of flesh colour and the brown is very dark.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The coach bodies are now in primer so if I've got time later in week and it doesn't rain, I'll have a go at spraying them .

After that they will need a new non-clerestory  roof made.

 

The MJT Fox bogies mentioned above will be worth getting as replacements if the coach bodies look ok.

 

 

The 2 I'm going to try the paint on are both compartment coaches. Here's another one that just happens  to be lying on a drawing of an LSWR 48' coach. (The upper one). The original has 8 compartments while the old Triang/Hornby model has 7. However, the length width and profile of the model are close. The ends of the model do curve inwards at  the bottom, though.  And it's  on Mk1 bogies  (which do take later type metal Hornby wheels which improve running).  

Still, close enough to be worth an experiment with the paint.  [And the clerestory coaches are available for under £5 each on e-bay if you're patient so a cheap experiment].

 

And they are light so an M7 can pull lots of them!   :-)

 

If this approach turns out to be worth going on with, I'll start a separate thread.

 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

Now got the Precison paint tins, P411 salmon and P412 coach brown.  From the splashes on the lids, the salmon is a slightly more pinky version of flesh colour and the brown is very dark.

 

 

 

P1180353.JPG

 

 

 

P1180354.JPG

 

 

The coach bodies are now in primer so if I've got time later in week and it doesn't rain, I'll have a go at spraying them .

After that they will need a new non-clerestory  roof made.

 

The MJT Fox bogies mentioned above will be worth getting as replacements if the coach bodies look ok.

 

P1170913.JPG

 

The 2 I'm going to try the paint on are both compartment coaches. Here's another one that just happens  to be lying on a drawing of an LSWR 48' coach. (The upper one). The original has 8 compartments while the old Triang/Hornby model has 7. However, the length width and profile of the model are close. The ends of the model do curve inwards at  the bottom, though.  And it's  on Mk1 bogies  (which do take later type metal Hornby wheels which improve running).  

Still, close enough to be worth an experiment with the paint.  [And the clerestory coaches are available for under £5 each on e-bay if you're patient so a cheap experiment].

 

And they are light so an M7 can pull lots of them!   :-)

 

If this approach turns out to be worth going on with, I'll start a separate thread.

 

 

If you cut and shut 2 of the Triang Brake coaches, you should get 8 compartments within your 48'

 

The compartments on the brake coach are narrower, and of Third Class dimensions. 

[Scottest]

Now got the Precison paint tins, P411 salmon and P412 coach brown.  From the splashes on the lids, the salmon is a slightly more pinky version of flesh colour and the brown is very dark.

 

 

 

P1180353.JPG

 

 

 

P1180354.JPG

 

 

The coach bodies are now in primer so if I've got time later in week and it doesn't rain, I'll have a go at spraying them .

After that they will need a new non-clerestory  roof made.

 

The MJT Fox bogies mentioned above will be worth getting as replacements if the coach bodies look ok.

 

P1170913.JPG

 

The 2 I'm going to try the paint on are both compartment coaches. Here's another one that just happens  to be lying on a drawing of an LSWR 48' coach. (The upper one). The original has 8 compartments while the old Triang/Hornby model has 7. However, the length width and profile of the model are close. The ends of the model do curve inwards at  the bottom, though.  And it's  on Mk1 bogies  (which do take later type metal Hornby wheels which improve running).  

Still, close enough to be worth an experiment with the paint.  [And the clerestory coaches are available for under £5 each on e-bay if you're patient so a cheap experiment].

 

And they are light so an M7 can pull lots of them!   :-)

 

If this approach turns out to be worth going on with, I'll start a separate thread.

 

The ingredients shown are suitable for a first class result, and I hope to watch with the closest interest. The 48ft stock was one of the more common pre-grouping lengths for LSW non-corridor coaches; there were others as well. One suggestion might be the 56ft brake Tri-Compo ( to D1190) as currently part of the collection in the NRM, or even a 50ft Brake Third (to D 1046). These lend themselves to the Triang clerestory base unit. Any one would suit an M7, just to show topic awareness. At one time the SWC could supply suitable roof sections for both 8ft and 8ft 6inch prototypes. I used the 8ft version for my malachite cross-country set on a Roxey base.

[Edwardian]

If anyone is interested in modelling the LSWR, there is now a topic in the Pre-Grouping section of the site that is concentrating on the use of RTR models for representing the LSWR, one of several topics appearing to consider how RTR models might be used for earlier periods.

The topic includes the Radial, M7, Well Tank, rolling stock etc and is to be found here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115499-using-rtr-models-to-represent-the-lswr/

[dandrews2000]

Well well Hornby 4 Hornby locos brought and 4 Hornby locos with problems.

 

1) Hornby 08 with sound replaced by Hornby and replacement still lurches. (XMAS PRESENT)

 

2) Hornby caerphilly castle blew decoder upon installation as tender wired wrong (shop refund) (BIRTHDAY PRESENT)

 

3) NRM LSWR M7 body weights glued as opposed to screwed in, pipes from chasis glued to body so had to break to gain access to chip. Oh and noisy motor, would have have got a refund as not fit for purpose had i not had it sitting in a display cabinet for 14 months.

(XMAS PRESENT)

 

4) And finally D16/3 Claud Hamilton which runs fine on dc but is an absolute dog on dcc. Have tried esu lokpilot, gaugemaster dcc26 x 2 and Hornby's own decoder to no avail (BIRTHDAY PRESENT) Refund or replacement?

[olivegreen]

Well well Hornby 4 Hornby locos brought and 4 Hornby locos with problems.

 

1) Hornby 08 with sound replaced by Hornby and replacement still lurches. (XMAS PRESENT)

 

2) Hornby caerphilly castle blew decoder upon installation as tender wired wrong (shop refund) (BIRTHDAY PRESENT)

 

3) NRM LSWR M7 body weights glued as opposed to screwed in, pipes from chasis glued to body so had to break to gain access to chip. Oh and noisy motor, would have have got a refund as not fit for purpose had i not had it sitting in a display cabinet for 14 months.

(XMAS PRESENT)

 

4) And finally D16/3 Claud Hamilton which runs fine on dc but is an absolute dog on dcc. Have tried esu lokpilot, gaugemaster dcc26 x 2 and Hornby's own decoder to no avail (BIRTHDAY PRESENT) Refund or replacement?

 

Hmmm… and what value does all that add to this particular thread?

[dandrews2000]

Hmmm… and what value does all that add to this particular thread?

Hmmm.......nothing apart from trying to raise awarness to the manufacturing inconsistencies in what is an otherwise fine looking little model. Some of which are not readly evident upon first inspection.

[olivegreen]

If you say so...

[Ian Hargrave]

Hmmm.......nothing apart from trying to raise awarness to the manufacturing inconsistencies in what is an otherwise fine looking little model. Some of which are not readly evident upon first inspection.

And you left your first inspection of the M7 for 14 months ?

[dandrews2000]

Yes as it was originally going to be a display only loco.

[Hilux5972]

And, with all those issues Dandrews, Hornby are increasing their prices this year? Doesn't seem right does it!

[Ian Hargrave]

And, with all those issues Dandrews, Hornby are increasing their prices this year? Doesn't seem right does it!

Curiously,the issues with these models seems to occur only with DCC examples.We appear to be hearing these issues with increasing frequency or so it would seem to me.Though to be fair I did have to return a new M7 (DC) for a replacement early last year as it appeared to be a coffee grinder.With regard to the price/qc ratio,I have to agree with you which is a point I recently made on the D16/3 thread.

[John M Upton]

I always find it odd how some people seem to find breakages with every single model they buy and instantly blame the manufacturers whereas I am more inclined to say that poor handling across the board by the owners (or their postie) may be more relevant to create so many problems.

[Ian Hargrave]

I always find it odd how some people seem to find breakages with every single model they buy and instantly blame the manufacturers whereas I am more inclined to say that poor handling across the board by the owners (or their postie) may be more relevant to create so many problems.

And you are speaking from experience as a fly on the wall as a host of ham fisted modellers maltreat their models or watch the postie fling it on their doorsteps ? I think not. One wonders where else your inclinations may take us.