DMU conversions for Sheffield Exchange

[31A]

One of the delights of travelling in modernisation DMUs was the view out the front windows. One of the downsides of model DMUs, I can see inside through most windows. Now do I place passengers and crew in them or not?

 

A driver in the lead cab seems to be a must. However Sheffield Exchange is a terminus station so I need a driver in the rear cab as this becomes the front on its next move. Another consideration is when I run two units in multiple, the two middle cab would have drivers in them because they would be the lead cabs if the units were on their own.

 

Should I go down the crew and passenger route which figures do I use, or do I make my own? If I make my own how detailed do they need to be?

 

I will also have to crew my locomotives, in the past I have not as my layouts have been of depots. Now I have some steam locos the tender ones do scream where is my driver and fireman?

 

With compartment loco hauled coaches I do not always notice they are missing their passengers but if I populate the DMUs it might notice there is no passengers in the suburban coaches next to them.

 

Something to ponder.

 

I put drivers in both ends of my DMUs; I seem to recall sometimes when travelling on the real ones a railwayman (fitter or driver 'on the cushions') might get in the rear cab and spoil the view!  And no real reason why drivers shouldn't be in cabs in sidings, e.g. if 'prepping' the unit.  On the other hand, I don't put passengers in them (or in coaches) as they would look ridiculous in sidings or during shunt moves, but when the train is moving the lack isn't too obvious, and some trains may have few passengers, anyway.

[Clive Mortimore]

I put drivers in both ends of my DMUs; I seem to recall sometimes when travelling on the real ones a railwayman (fitter or driver 'on the cushions') might get in the rear cab and spoil the view!  And no real reason why drivers shouldn't be in cabs in sidings, e.g. if 'prepping' the unit.  On the other hand, I don't put passengers in them (or in coaches) as they would look ridiculous in sidings or during shunt moves, but when the train is moving the lack isn't too obvious, and some trains may have few passengers, anyway.

Hi Steve

 

It is quite noticeable that DMUs are missing their passengers, in my opinion. Having a terminus station it will seem strange that in the layover/turn round time that no passengers leave or join the train but that is one of limits of model railways. I have no sidings to park my trains into. I do not envisage shunting of trains. May be joining two DMUs but most of the time that will happen at the station they will be routed into the same platform. Empty coaching stock trains will be a problem as they will have passengers in. Conversely if at an exhibition how are the punters to know the train departing platform 3 is an ECS? Running full ECS will be better than running empty service trains.

[31A]

Ah well, chacun a son gout...... 

[Ravenser]

I would put four or five figures in each coach, maybe less as lines facing closure often had very lightly loaded locals (I seem to recall that in Rails across the Fells David Jenkinson worked out from the S&C booking figures that by the end Carlisle-Hellifield locals were carrying about a dozen people)

 

I don't think quality really matters inside a coach - all you're going to see is people-shaped blobs. Certainly figurine wargaming quality work is totally unnecessary. I've used Slaters seated figures painted by me and some cheap prepainted plastic figures off someone's stand where the figures really are little more than shaped blobs.

 

The conductor-guard might well be found in a cab for part of the run . Admittedly he would probably join the driver for a bit of company , but in the back unit of a 2+2 formation with no through gangways he might well take refuge in the front cab of the back unit. So I think it's defensible - the anomalies of having figures are going to be far less than the anomalies created by not having them

 

For what it's worth I've put figures in coaches and DMUs I've worked over/weathered, with a driver each end and painted the interiors. Duck-egg blue (as in Spitfire) seems a useful shade to represent the pale formica interiors

[31A]

Don't forget though, first generation DMUs had Guard's compartments for the Guard to ride in, which I think they usually did.  Must admit though, that is one of my pretexts for having a crew member in the back cab....

[Ravenser]

I certainly remember in the 80s the conductor -guard going through the train checking/selling tickets and then continuing through the door into the cab to sit with the driver 

[MJI]

Where did the term conductor come from, I have never come across a BR orchestra while travelling by rail.

[CloggyDog]

Where did the term conductor come from, I have never come across a BR orchestra while travelling by rail.

 

I recall travelling (as a nipper) on Paytrains around the wilds of East Anglia where the guard/conductor has a bus-type ticket machine (Setright) hung around his neck, so probably a carry-over from a 'bus conductor in terms of his job.

 

Happy days of rattling around in Cravens and Met-Camm carts.

[31A]

Where did the term conductor come from, I have never come across a BR orchestra while travelling by rail.

 

I think it's been used for a long time where Guards also issued tickets (e.g. Kelvedon & Tollesbury) which was referred to as 'Conductor Guard' working, but those situations were quite rare on UK railways until the 'Paytrain' schemes which went hand in hand with de-staffing of stations from the mid 1960s.  I first came across it in East Anglia where (as Cloggydog mentions) Guards issued tickets using bus ticket machines (at first Setright, but later also Almex machines) - the Guards had badges with 'Conductor Guard' on their hats.

[Ravenser]

I'm starting to wonder if it was an ER term - as I grew up in Lincolnshire, and I think I may have seen the term on the bottom of pocket timetables , explaining "Paytrain"

[Clive Mortimore]

This post on Rail UK Forums is interesting, the poster was a conductor guard but does not call himself it. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=711665&postcount=6

 

It is also interesting as to the loadings of the trains in the Sheffield area............how many passengers do I put in each DMU?

[Ravenser]

It does explain why the Clayton West branch closed in 1983.... 

 

I'd say it depends on what the back story for the layout is - ie do these lines get axed by Beeching or make it through to S. Yorks PTE ?(official policy - "nothing round here is ever going to change from 1974 / Year 1 of the People's Republic of S.Yorkshire. Especially not the fares")

 

Though assuming they don't susrvive and you only need a few passengers is the quickest, easiest and cheapest option. You can always say that while the DMU is in the station these are just the few passengers whove got there early and are waiting for departure

[Market65]

Hi. There were also Conductors on the York, Knaresborough and Harrogate line. They also used a bus Setright machine. I believe that this line became a Paytrain service after being saved from closure.

 

Passenger numbers can vary so much. I cannot say much about the Sheffield area, but the time of day has a big part to play in this, and peak times will usually see trains full and standing. Back the early '60's the newly dieselised York to Hull service was reported, in the Beeching Report, to be averaging 57 passengers per 2 car unit - 9 trains each way Mondays to Saturdays. I suppose, working this out , that it would mean about c80 to 40 passengers peak to off-peak on that service. If, on the model, just a handful of passengers are put into a DMU, then that might give the right kind of overall effect. For, of course, you do not want a train to be full when it is in the fiddle yard!

 

With regards,

 

Market65.

[Broadway Clive]

A very enjoyable thread Clive. A great location for a layout and an interesting subject for which I share your pain!

In the mid sixties I once got left behind in Leeds on the first day of a two day shed bashing trip to the North East because I was still writing down DMU numbers in Neville Hill depot. The guy sitting next to me on the coach never reported me missing till later (maybe glad to get rid of me!), but I got a refund afterwards.

 

I really like what you are doing with them. I bought a couple of white metal fronts for 104s from Chris Leigh over 20 years ago but other things intervened and I now have a 4 car on order from Silver Fox. On the subject of drivers, I seem to remember some pulling down blinds when it got dark, much as bus drivers did. On my Hull based layout, passenger trains pass either side of the freight yards and I cant say i've noticed the lack of people, so I think it very much depends on the particular layout. With depot and sidings as the focal point I would find a driver always peering out from a stabled DMU rather eery. I do find train passengers problematic on exhibition layouts as one can often recognise them easier than one could a particular carriage without reading the number (here are those school kids again!), so the illusion of many trains is shattered. Ideally I feel that less direct light, sombre interiors, and platform obstructions are best combined to obscure a clear view of the interior. Details inside like luggage racks will only draw the eye in, and for the same reason passengers might be better to be drab and slightly "weathered" as if in shadow, with no eyes staring out of windows to attract attention. I've recently started a new London Transport layout and am keeping the trains empty as the combination of passengers and doors that dont open at the station would ring alarm bells in my brain!

[John Tomlinson]

As this thread is very much to do with DMU's and their improvement, I thought I should mention that I stumbled yesterday across an outfit called "Worsley Works" who produce all manner of etched brass sides and ends for DMU's, at what by today's standards look to be quite reasonable prices. They have a website with full details but no pictures, entry into Google will bring this up.

 

Not plastic I know but might be of interest.

 

John.

[CloggyDog]

Seated figures - I recently picked up a couple of bulk-packs of seated figures via a well-known online auction site - 100 painted seated figures for just under a fiver, including postage.

 

They aren't brilliant - pretty basic mouldings (6 different ones) and simply painted, but once sat in a coach they don't look so crude and do make the trains look loaded

[Clive Mortimore]

As this thread is very much to do with DMU's and their improvement, I thought I should mention that I stumbled yesterday across an outfit called "Worsley Works" who produce all manner of etched brass sides and ends for DMU's, at what by today's standards look to be quite reasonable prices. They have a website with full details but no pictures, entry into Google will bring this up.

 

Not plastic I know but might be of interest.

 

John.

Hi John

 

I have looked at the Worsely Works site in the past. Their 4mm DMUs are not top of my list of "must have" but looking at their 3mm list, I might be tempted to ask if they would be willing to enlarge some of them. Thanks for teh reminder.

[Clive Mortimore]

Seated figures - I recently picked up a couple of bulk-packs of seated figures via a well-known online auction site - 100 painted seated figures for just under a fiver, including postage.

 

They aren't brilliant - pretty basic mouldings (6 different ones) and simply painted, but once sat in a coach they don't look so crude and do make the trains look loaded

Hi Alan

 

I too have looked at figures from China via E-bay. If you consider them OK then it looks like it is worth an investment in some of these.

[Clive Mortimore]

Today I took delivery of a pair of Derby 108 3 car units with the sole intention of making a NER 4 car set like I have with the 101 and 104 units. Body wise no problem once I worked out how to take the lighting etc out from the two coaches that will make up the trailer brake second. And with Hattons selling the blue 3 car sets at almost half price I would be daft not to have a go.

 

I thought I could do what I have done with the Lima and Hornby models and mount the motor in the TBS. With the Hornby it was a quick bogie swap, job done. With the Lima model I had to remove the under gubbins from a DMBS and replace them with those from a TS. I like the motor to be hidden in the luggage section, and doing so there are less coaches to be propelled either way as the motor is in the middle. Neither method can be done with the Bachmann model. The motor bogie is mounted on a metal under frame! No way can I just swap the bogies, the motor is mounted in a box structure that is screwed to the chassis. What to do?

 

I have taken the choice of running the unit with the motor in one of the DMC coaches. I swapped the body off the DMBS with that of the DMC. OK when you look in to the coach you can see the back end has a solid block of something not seats. I ran it on Sheffield Exchange with the two center coaches and the other (unpowered) DMC. No problems propelling three coaches in either direction. Whilst on the layout going backwards and forwards the lack of seats in the rear of the DMC did not notice.

 

Next stage to cut off the van end off the DMBS and the non toilet end of the TS and make the TBS.

 

I do like seeing four car DMUs and I like the Bachmann Derby units so a 4 car 108 will be a winner.

[John Tomlinson]

Clive, I hope you'll keep us informed of progress, and I don't think I've ever seen a model of a 4-car 108 as you describe.

 

I have 7 Hornby 110 bodies awaiting painting, worked on to become 3 & 4-car 104 sets, and now that warmth seems finally to have arrived I may be forced to go outside into the garden and fire up the airbrush!

 

John.

Edited May 8, 2016 by John Tomlinson

[John Tomlinson]

Further to my last post, I've been spraying the seven 104 bodies today. Sadly further action with filler and sanding will be needed before proceeding to the finishing coats.

 

I've attached four pictures that might be of interest;

 

Overview

A pair of cab ends showing defects around the re-formed windows and domes

The TBSL in the area of the join - tumblehome crease needs further attention

Interiors remodelled for the seven, drivers cabs sprayed white, also seat mouldings that were in blue are painted white as undercoat

 

The eight bodies used all came from Ebay in various states, after removing windowframes, tumble home creases and refashioning the end windows and the domes I decided to strip the little remaining paint to give a clean start, hence the bare shells.

 

I'm not sure I should be hijacking Clive's thread, and will gladly move if he wishes.

 

 

John

Edited May 23, 2016 by John Tomlinson

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi John

 

Hijack away..............we have just put our house on the market so I doubt I will be modelling very much in the near future so feel free to share your modelling, there are not many of us DMU modellers.

[Waveydavey]

Have you ever had a crack at doing a Rolls Royce engined Met Cam Clive?

All three front ends would be suitable so just the underframe details would need sorting if you didn't fancy doing the four figure headcode conversion.

I reckon the engines and radiators from a Hornby 110 would be a good start for grafting onto a Limby 101.

[Market65]

Hi. Ideally something better than the old Hornby Rolls Royce engine moulding is needed for either a class 110 or 111. I have scratchbuilt replacements for them for use on my class 110 unit. I used all manner of materials, including plasti-card, aluminium tubing, balsa, and old wiring. All this was a good two years ago, so I cannot recall all that I did, but it did take about a month per power car.

Anyway, here are a couple of photos of one the class 110 power cars, which will, hopefully, give a better idea. I used a cheap, at the time, Bachmann class 108 chassis.

 

The secondman's side of the DMBC:

 

The driver's side:

 

And underneath the car:

 

Best regards,

 

Rob.

[Clive Mortimore]

Have you ever had a crack at doing a Rolls Royce engined Met Cam Clive?

All three front ends would be suitable so just the underframe details would need sorting if you didn't fancy doing the four figure headcode conversion.

I reckon the engines and radiators from a Hornby 110 would be a good start for grafting onto a Limby 101.

Hi David

 

I have made a start on a 111, with four figure headcode box, see the first page of this thread. I haven't even thought about the under gubbins yet.