Southern Maunsell Coaching Stock discussion

[2ManySpams]

After cleverly disguising myself so no GWR fanatics will recognize me, I would like to ask a luddite question. Before nationalisation, were Maunsell lined green coaches ever seen mixed with Malachite ones in sets? Would make it much easier to obtain a correct set. Just asking for a friend....

Sierd, tell your friend that the answer is probably 'sometimes yes but not very likely'. The Southern were very frugal and mastered the art of varnishing rather than repainting coaches. Multiple layers of (yellowish) varnish probably also altered colours making arguments over 'the correct colour' a little pointless.

 

Graham will probably be able to help with pre-BR questions (it's not really my period) but post nationalisation you could certainly see mixed rakes of blood and custard with BR green.

 

See also Bill's answer a few posts below.

[BR60103]

Were sets kept securely fastened together until remarshalled?  Were loose coaches added outside the sets only?

[2ManySpams]

Were sets kept securely fastened together until remarshalled? Were loose coaches added outside the sets only?

The Southern (and I believe LNER) used buckeye type couplings between coaches. These look like the Kadee coupling used by American and some UK modellers. Other than that general difference there was nothing special about how coaches in Sets were connected together. There are two points of interest about the buckeyes:

 

1. The buckeye was mounted over the conventional coupling hook and could be dropped down to enable coupling using normal screw couplings.

2. When the buckeye was used the buffers were withdrawn/compressed so that the didn't touch. On some Southern sets the buffers were actually removed between coaches.

 

Loose coaches were predominantly thirds and brake composites. Planned strengthening of Sets was undertaken in carriage sidings and berths with the additional Loose coaches generally added into the Set. For example

 

A 3 coach BTK CK BTK could have two thirds added to make BTK TK CK TK BTK.

 

This obviously took time and planning to achieve - the revised Set formation details would be passed to the traffic (?) department so that passengers could book seats. For more reactive situations, particularly if the train was already in service, additional Loose coaches or Sets were tacked on the end. For example:

 

Our BTK CK BTK could be strengthened by adding two coaches BTK CK BTK TK BCK or an additional Set BTK CK BTK BCK BTK. In extreme cases entire additional relief trains were put into service. (my memory may be playing tricks but I recall that it was a requirement to always have a brake at each end of the train until some time in the 1960s)

 

The main thing to remember is that the railway companies kept coaching stock to meet peak operational requirements. Many coaches sat in sidings for all but one week of the year waiting to be used.

 

The famous Mr Beeching found this situation very wasteful. This was the start of the railways moving away from meeting passenger requirements and to the same train being used throughout the year - standing room only!

[bbishop]

After cleverly disguising myself so no GWR fanatics will recognize me, I would like to ask a luddite question. Before nationalisation, were Maunsell lined green coaches ever seen mixed with Malachite ones in sets? Would make it much easier to obtain a correct set. Just asking for a friend....

Sierd,

The answer is probably no, as the set was likely to be maintained and repainted as one unit. But loose coaches could be inserted into a set on a semi-permanent basis, for example a 3-set could have two Thirds inserted for the summer timetable. And it would be on the basis of next available stock, irrespective of livery.

Bill

[The Lurker]

This is a great thread, thanks for taking the time to post it.

[2ManySpams]

Note post 18 (body styles) has been corrected to remove a late night posting error and add an extra image to complete the set.

[2ManySpams]

Table added showing Diagram numbers vs coach types vs body styles in Post 23.

 

Anyone fancy checking it? 

 

(Explanatory text still to be drafted) 

[2ManySpams]

I envy the detail you are able to go on these subjects.

 

If you need any coaches reducing in width, I have selection of tools that may help......

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Consider it part of your education Mr Ross...all those green coaches on Treneglos are all thoroughly researched and correctly sit in Sets that ran on the line to Padstow. 

[olivegreen]

The Southern (and I believe LNER) used buckeye type couplings between coaches. These look like the Kadee coupling used by American and some UK modellers. Other than that general difference there was nothing special about how coaches in Sets were connected together. There are two points of interest about the buckeyes:

 

1. The buckeye was mounted over the conventional coupling hook and could be dropped down to enable coupling using normal screw couplings.

2. When the buckeye was used the buffers were withdrawn/compressed so that the didn't touch. On some Southern sets the buffers were actually removed between coaches.

 

… and of course, to confuse the  non-Southern enthusiast even further, some sets used for inter-company (later, inter-regional) services had British standard gangways at the outer ends.  I don't know, but I suppose the same must have applied to the LNER.

Isn't this fun? 

Great work in explaining all this, by the way!

Mike

 

 

(Edited because of gross finger trouble - spelling)

Edited December 18, 2014 by olivegreen

[talisman56]

Link to a 'potted history' of Maunsell 'low window' stock, mainly with respect to the forthcoming Dapol 'N' Gauge releases...

 

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=24227.0

 

...and a similar one for the Farish Bulleids...

 

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19041.0

Edited December 23, 2014 by talisman56

[2ManySpams]

Link to a 'potted history' of Maunsell 'low window' stock, mainly with respect to the forthcoming Dapol 'N' Gauge releases...

 

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=24227.0

 

...and a similar one for the Farish Bulleids...

 

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19041.0

Just had a look but you need a login to see the content.

[talisman56]

Just had a look but you need a login to see the content.

 

Ouch... one of the sections that is off-limits to guests, then. I'll use a couple of posts to copy the content over (I am the author), if that's OK...

 

Edited December 23, 2014 by talisman56

[talisman56]

Maunsell Low Window Restriction 4 coaching stock, **Dapol models. Per Gould and King:

**Diagram 2001 eight-compartment Third: numbers 769-778 (built Eastleigh 7/27-8/27), 783-832 (Eastleigh/BRCW/Metropolitan 3/28-7/28), 2349-55 (Ashford/Eastleigh 12/26-6/27). 802 was damaged by fire 7/35, a new body to D.2008 was built 7/36 on its underframe.
D.2101 four-compartment Third Brake: nos. 3214-3233 (Eastleigh 7/26-10/26), 4055-4062 (Metropolitan 8/28-9/28).
**D.2102 six-compartment Third Brake: nos. 4048-4051 (Eastleigh 12/26-2/27).
D.2201 eight-compartment Second (identical to D.2001 TK): nos. 4483-4486 (Ashford 6/27).
D.2251 six-compartment Second Brake (identical to D.2102 BTK): nos. 4481/4482 (Ashford 6/27).
**D.2301 seven-compartment (1st/3rd) Composite: nos. 5137-5146 (Eastleigh 7/26-10/26), 5147-5150 (Metropolitan 8/28-9/28).
D.2401 six-compartment (1st/3rd) Composite Brake: nos. 6565-6574 (Eastleigh 8/26).
**D.2501 seven-compartment First: nos. 7208-7227 (Eastleigh/Midland 6/27-11/27), 7665-7674 (Ashford/Eastleigh 12/26-3/27).

Of the above, the following were formed in sets, created from new unless otherwise noted:
3-sets 'P' 390-399 (10/26, for London to Plymouth/Torrington/Ilfracombe services): D.2101 BTKs 3214-3233 (in pairs, in order), CKs 5137-5146 (not in order).
3-sets 'P' 445-448 (9/28, as above): D.2101 BTKs 4055-4062 (in pairs, in order), CKs 5147-5150 (in order).
Set 469 (2/27, London-Worthing service): formation BTK-TK-TK-FK-FK-FK-TK-BTK, using 4048/2351/2350/7667/7665/7666/2349/4049.
Set 470 (10/26, London-Eastbourne service until 3/27, then Worthing): formation BTK-TK-FK-FK-FK-FK-TK-BTK, using 4050/2355/7674/7673/7672/7671/2354/4051.
FKs 7218 and 7219 were formed in sets 206 and 207 in 1931; 7211-7213, 7215, 7225, 7230-7231 and 7675-7676 were formed in sets 244-247, 430, 329-330 and 241-242 in 1933; 7216 and 7222 were formed in sets 248 and 327 in 1936. All these 'new' sets were otherwise formed of high-window stock. 7227 was condemned with fire damage, 8/36.

The TKs and (initially) the FKs were loose 'strengthener' vehicles for making up trains at periods of heavy demand and could turn up anywhere R4 stock was permitted.
The BCKs were intended for single car through services to the West of England, which effectively meant any branch line west of Salisbury and Bournemouth.
The SK and BSKs were part of the 'pool' of stock for the Newhaven Boat Train, with TKs 2352/2353 and FKs 7668-7670 built at Ashford at the same time. In theory any number of vehicles from the pool (with the BSKs one at each end, of course) would form the Boat Train subject to demand. A Pullman First would be included in the train to provide dining facilities. As the SK/BSKs were outwardly identical to the D.2001 TKs and D.2102 BTKs then the Boat Train could be modelled with suitably rebranded vehicles. An often quoted formation was BSK-Pullman-FK-SK-BSK, with a TK inserted for the 'Night' service.

469 was reduced to 6-cars in 1933, 7666 (to loose) and 7667 (to set 430) being removed; 4049 was replaced by 2789 (a D.2113 high-window 1935 stock BTK) in 1945 due to war damage.
470 was reduced to 3-cars in 1933, all of the TKs and FKs (all to loose) being replaced by 5656 (a D.2301 high-window 1929 stock CK). 7672 and 7674 were formed in sets 202 and 250 in 1936.

Apart from the early period when one or two would run with added First and Third dining vehicles on the Bournemouth main line services, the 'P' sets were the only sets which maintained the same formations from introduction until the very end of Maunsell stock operation in the early 1960s.

Matching stock not being produced by Dapol (ie look for available kits): D.2551 Three-compartment Pantry First Brake; D.2651 Kitchen and Dining First; D.2652 Dining Third Saloon; D.2653 'General' Saloon.

This basically covers the Southern operation of the 'low window' Maunsell stock right up to the start of the war; I shall ignore the war and immediate post-war (the Malachite) period as formations were very fluid and difficult to keep a track of.

The following were lost due to accident or enemy action between 1938 and the end of 1947: 801, 807, 4049 (as noted above).

One 1945-created set which did last into BR days was set 273, one of six (268-273) formed BCK-TK-CK-TK-BCK from previously loose stock; low-window BCKs 6571/6574 and TKs 771/787 were joined by high-window CK 5636 in 273. As part of the same exercise, three sets (265-267) formed BTK-TK-FK-TK-BTK were created and low-window FKs 7209/7220/7669 were formed in 265/266/267 respectively. The other vehicles in all these sets were high-window stock. These were classified 5-sets 'G' and allocated to West of England, and Brighton to Bournemouth and Plymouth services. In 1947 265-267 lost a TK each and were then used on Waterloo-Bournemouth-Weymouth services as 4-sets 'H',  strengthened with First and Third Dining vehicles as required. Sets 265-267 were disbanded in 1948; by 1953, 273 was a 10-car Pullman Dining set on the Waterloo-Southampton Docks service, but ran as a 5-set in the winter.

Sometime before the end of 1947, sets 390-399/445-448 were reclassified as 3-sets 'M' (along with several similarly-formed 'high-window' sets) and were put to working Waterloo to Weymouth/Salisbury services.

In 1948, eight 2-sets 'R' (22-29) were formed, low-window BCKs 6567/6569/6575 (in sets 29/28/23 respectively) being included with other high-window BCKs and Third Brakes. By 1959 they had been demoted to 2-sets 'P' and were on local services in the Western District, mainly on the Bude and Padstow branches.

In 1950, BCKs 6565/6566 were formed with TKs 818/819, two high-window TKs and three new Bulleid CKs in an Eastern Section special services 9-set, 263. The low-window vehicles lasted in this set through several reformations until the set was disbanded in 1959, the BCKs being condemned and the other vehicles redeployed.

By 1953, 3-set 'M' 391-395 were reclassed 3-set 'N' and transferred to Bournemouth West-Bath Green Park services. The remainder were still on Weymouth, Salisbury and West of England services.

In 1954, the Boat Train second-class vehicles were reclassified as Thirds and renumbered; BSKs 4481/4482 became BTKs 2772/2773, and SKs 4483-4486 became TKs, 1921-1924. 2772 was in set 234 in 1957, the others remained loose stock.

In 1956, all Third class was redesignated as Second class.

In 1958, BCK 6570 and SKs 823/824/827 were included with various high-window vehicles in two new 6-sets for the Western District, 340/341. The BCK was replaced by a high-window version in 1959 at the same time as SKs 810/829 replaced high-window CKs. The SKs remained until the sets were withdrawn in 1961, all of them being condemned.

Also in 1958, 2-sets 'W' 100-110, for Western District local services were created, BCKs 6572/6573 was the only members of the 'low-window' fleet included, in sets 101/106 respectively. Initially the other vehicle was an ex-SECR 10-compartment non-corridor second, but in late 1959 a Maunsell Second Open was substituted; by then 6573 was the only low-window BCK remaining, the 6572 having been replaced by high-window version. These sets then remained unchanged until withdrawl. They worked on the Bere Alston-Callington line, and the Sidmouth, Exmouth and Lyme Regis branches.

Sets 391/393, 445/448 were withdrawn in 1958; 273, 392, 447, 470 in 1959.

By 1960, the remaining 3-sets were reclassified 3-set 'SD', 390/394-399 and 446 working Bournemouth West-Bath

The remaining 3-sets were withdrawn in 1961, along with the remains of set 469; the 2-sets 22-29/100-10 were 'withdrawn' in 1962, being part of the 'dowry', along with several loose BCKs (one of which was low-window 6569), of the turning over of the lines west of Wilton to the Western Region. The WR immediately painted out the set numbers and changed the coach number prefixes to 'W'.

Of the loose stock, all of the SKs had been withdrawn by the end of 1961, bar 811, which lasted until 10/62; the 'Boat Train' BSKs 2772/73 were withdrawn in 12/58 and 10/59 respectively; the BCKs were all gone by the end of 1959, 6568/6569/6573 being the exceptions, the first withdrawn in 11/61 and the others as noted above; and of the FKs, the majority had been withdrawn by the end of 1959, five examples lasting until the end of 1961 and a further three struggling into 1962.

Edited December 24, 2014 by talisman56

[talisman56]

What sets can you make up from the Farish Bulleid coaches?

The Farish Bulleids are TO (Diag.2017) 1462-506; TK (Diag.2019) 26-80; BTK (Diag.2123) 3942-62/71-4040; CK (Diag.2318) 5848-907. The Farish TK does not represent TKs 81-130, which, although to the same Diagram and numbered in the same series, have a larger lavatory water tank in the roof.

Four-sets 'N' 80-94 for Eastern section, formed BTK-TK-CK-BTK
These used vehicles numbered 4011-40 (BTK), in pairs; 26-40 (TK); and 5823-37 (CK). The First class end of the CK was next to the TK and the corridor on the TK was on the opposite side to that of the CK.

In February 1959, sets 80 and 86 were lengthened to seven-cars, using CK 5884, TOs 1477/79 in set 80 and CK 5886, TOs 1482/87 in set 86, the additional vehicles being inserted between the CK and its neighbouring BTK. These two sets were later (about June 1961) transferred to the Western section as 10-sets with TKs 45, 103/04 in set 80 and shallow-vent TKs 1932-34 in set 86.

Three-sets 'L' 830-37 for Western section, formed BTK-CK-BTK
These used vehicles numbered 3971-86 (BTK), in pairs; and 5848-55 (CK). The First class end of the CK was formed next to the lower-numbered BTK.
Three-sets 'L' 767-69 for Eastern section, formed as 830-37
Vehicles 3950-55 (BTK), in pairs; and 5878/80/79 (CK) respectively. These were formed from the loose vehicles detailed below.

Five-sets 'H' 838-49 for Western section, formed BTK-TK-CK-TK-BTK
These used vehicles numbered 3987-4010 (BTK), in pairs; 57-80 (TK), in pairs; and 5856-67 (CK). The lower-numbered TK was formed next to the lower-numbered BTK, with the First class end of the CK next to the lower-numbered TK. As originally specified, the corridors of the TKs were on the opposite side to that of the CK, but in practice the orientation of the corridor sides tended to vary.

In the summer season, 830-37 were augmented to match 838-49, using loose TKs. Sets 834-37 later became five-car using TKs 123-30 in pairs. 830-33 later still became permanent five-sets using TKs 114-21 in pairs.

The rest of the vehicles to these designs were 'loose' stock, these were BTKs 3943-62, CKs 5868-907, TKs 41-56/(81-130, see above), TOs 1462-506.

Many of the loose stock vehicles were later placed into fixed sets 264-67, 874-76, 803/04 and 350-54, some of which included Bulleid FKs, Maunsell Brake 3rd and catering vehicles, and BR Mark 1s.

Livery notes: When new, 80-94 were released in Malachite Green, later some sets were repainted into Crimson and Cream, others, through judicious use of varnishing and cleaning, stayed in Malachite.  All the other sets and loose vehicles were in Crimson and Cream from new. In 1956 the SR was permitted to use the later BR(SR) Green, and most of the fleet were rapidly repainted into green, but some loose vehicles retained Crimson and Cream until the early 60s.

Other coaches associated with the Farish-released vehicles (i.e. built at the same time as the sets/loose stock noted above):
FK (Diag.2552) 7608-7647 (40 vehicles); the 'Tavern sets' - 'Inn cars' (Diag.2663) 7892-99, restaurant cars (Diag.2664) 7833-40.

Stock note: Bulleid CK 5898 was withdrawn damaged in April 1953.

Edited December 23, 2014 by talisman56

[FourSUB]

Our BTK CK BTK could be strengthened by adding two coaches BTK CK BTK TK BCK or an additional Set BTK CK BTK BCK BTK. In extreme cases entire additional relief trains were put into service. (my memory may be playing tricks but I recall that it was a requirement to always have a brake at each end of the train until some time in the 1960s)

Post war it was very common to have loose coaches between loco and first set. Most often Third/Seconds though up West Country trains would often have the catering pair added to the front at Exeter Central. Plenty of photographs of this but not of the other end of the trains where it was not unknown for loose non-brake coaches to be marshalled. See King's Southern Coaches pages 78, 84 and 155 for comment plus details of the Oxted line sets 194 and 767 with the brakes inside the set. Having brakes at both ends of a train was a MoT requirement but it didn't happen in the real world!

 

The main thing to remember is that the railway companies kept coaching stock to meet peak operational requirements. Many coaches sat in sidings for all but one week of the year waiting to be used.

 

The famous Mr Beeching found this situation very wasteful. This was the start of the railways moving away from meeting passenger requirements and to the same train being used throughout the year - standing room only!

Working through a 1955 Waterloo departures listing on the SRLHCS Yahoo Group I was surprised to find that virtually all the express train sets did just one round trip a day with a few doing just a single trip and returning empty to their start point.

 

Graham

Edited December 27, 2014 by FourSUB

[TimC]

Bill, Slaters have just bought out the 6 compartment brake third. Chris has one stashed away. One of life's mysteries why they took so long to bring one out.

 

Edit: Still not on their website, but Tower are advertising it for sale.

 

The 6 comp BTK kit (refs 7C027E/7C027P) is on the Slaters website, its just under GWR Bogie Coach Kits.....

[colin penfold]

If any of you find you need a coach to complete a correct set, the following half price maunsells may be of use, courtesy of andymac2008 in the bargain hunter thread

http://www.modellers-mecca.co.uk/199-half-price-sale?p=3

[mattingleycustom]

Chris,

 

Congratulations on trying to explain the full Southern coach set history, it is something I have pondered over many times when renumbering stock to make different sets out of existing Hornby models.

 

I've made one discovery since re-reading your notes on the 2-Coach 'P' Sets and that is that I have put the wrong number on the BCK in Set 25 on more than one occasion; I really must get my glasses fixed!

 

Thanks for pointing out the source for the Bill Bedford sides, I wondered where I could obtain these.

 

Of course the easiest way to make different sets is to renumber the Hornby models, but they have not produced all the diagrams across all the livery combinations (yet), most notable is the lack of High Window stock in lined SR olive (other than in train packs). This is the most complicated livery to reproduce, so repainting and lining is not an option unless you are a lining expert.

 

HMRS produce the coach numbers and Set numbers for SR liveries, I use the yellow Fox transfers or HMRS for BR green coach numbers and Fox 8" off-white are the best size match for Set numbers in BR days.

 

Glenn

Edited January 4, 2015 by mattingleycustom

[talisman56]

SEMG have a lot of useful information on their website about Southern coaches here -

 

http://www.semgonline.com/photoind.html#coaches

 

Plus a list of all known coach sets, the file for which is embedded on this page -

 

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/sets.html

 

I was going to post a link to these, particularly the Sets spreadsheet, but it looks like I've been beaten to it

 

I have taken the spreadsheet file, added a 'coach type' column and then split it into separate sheets for different types of coach (Mark 1, Bulleid, Maunsell, early Maunsell, and pre-Grouping). It is surprising how many sets are present on more than one sheet, particularly in the late 50s and 60s period.

 

One result of doing this and then checking against reference books (particularly Gould and King) is that the spreadsheet itself is incomplete and/or contains errors, or uncertain or conflicting information - I'm trying to find alternative sources of information in order to try and complete it. The amount of coloured cells denoting uncertain data is diminishing slowly...

 

One set I'm particularly interested in is Mark 1 set 560, the three original coaches for which were available ready numbered in 'N' from Farish. In later years it was lengthened with Bulleid stock (an ex-290 series set restaurant car and either one or two FKs,- the second of which would replace the original Mark 1 CK - depending on what you read) and the Mark 1 RFO S9. Was it one or two FKs or did it receive one and then later on the second to oust the CK from the formation - and when? In the period I'm modelling it was a 7-set (which is too long for 'Dunestone' but what the hey...) but it obviously is an interesting set to model and I've got the bit between my teeth now...

 

Edited January 4, 2015 by talisman56

[Mallard60022]

Were sets kept securely fastened together until remarshalled?  Were loose coaches added outside the sets only?

That's a good question. I would have said yes, until the WR took over west of Salisbury etc in '63. However, I have discovered a special, through Seaton Junction in 1958, with a 3 set split (751?), top, somewhere in the middle and tail and Pullmans + 2 Bulleid SOs interspersed (if that is the term). So there we go.........unusual but an excuse for fun.

P

Edit to add 2 SOs!

Edited January 7, 2015 by Mallard60022

[talisman56]

Were sets kept securely fastened together until remarshalled?  Were loose coaches added outside the sets only?

 

AFAIAA, apart from the standard buckeye coupling, there was no additional 'security' to keep the coaches in a set together.

 

Loose coaches which were added for specific journeys were marshalled outside the set. Where sets were augmented for extended periods (usually for the Summer timetable), then the extra coaches were added into the set, e.g. Bulleid Sets 'L' 830-37, and Mallard's example above.

Edited January 5, 2015 by talisman56

[Bodmin Bob]

Post war it was very common to have loose coaches between loco and first set. Most often Third/Seconds though up West Country trains would often have the catering pair added to the front at Exeter Central. Plenty of photographs of this but not of the other end of the trains where it was not unknown for loose non-brake coaches to be marshalled. See King's Southern Coaches pages 78, 84 and 155 for comment plus details of the Oxted line sets 194 and 767 with the brakes inside the set. Having brakes at both ends of a train was a MoT requirement but it didn't happen in the real world!

 

 

Another slight variation on the position of brake coaches in Maunsell sets was found with the 4 car Restriction 1 sets used on the Reading - Redhill service up until the mid 1960s.

 

In the early 1960s a decision was made to split each of these BSK+CK+CK+BSK sets into two completely separate 2 car sets, each now formed BSK+CK. Half of the old set retained it's original set number whilst the other half was allocated a brand new set number. However the revised sets still usually ran together in pairs as 4 coach trains but with the BSKs now coupled together, brake end to brake end  in the middle of the formation i.e. CK+BSK+BSK+CK. 

 

The reason was apparently to ensure that all the guard's/luggage accommodation was situated in the middle of the train at stations to help the platform staff - but this seems very strange after 30+ years in service on the same route in their original formation

[2ManySpams]

Another slight variation on the position of brake coaches in Maunsell sets was found with the 4 car Restriction 1 sets used on the Reading - Redhill service up until the mid 1960s.

 

In the early 1960s a decision was made to split each of these BSK+CK+CK+BSK sets into two completely separate 2 car sets, each now formed BSK+CK. Half of the old set retained it's original set number whilst the other half was allocated a brand new set number. However the revised sets still usually ran together in pairs as 4 coach trains but with the BSKs now coupled together, brake end to brake end  in the middle of the formation i.e. CK+BSK+BSK+CK. 

 

The reason was apparently to ensure that all the guard's/luggage accommodation was situated in the middle of the train at stations to help the platform staff - but this seems very strange after 30+ years in service on the same route in their original formation

I'd read that somewhere too. As you say very strange, perhaps reduced staff at the station??

[Mallard60022]

...........though up West Country trains would often have the catering pair added to the front at Exeter Central. 

This was usually the case but as ever not always, especially on The ACE and 'ACE Extras'. I discovered this when researching the movements at Central. Sometimes there would be something forward of the catering carriages. The loco would be east of the scissors crossover, towards the end of the up platform, waiting for the pilot to shunt the catering cars; it would sometimes have a 'section' already attached. It would then reverse with the section and catering cars, onto the rest of the train. 

This was probably a summer timetable happening though.

[olivegreen]

I'd read that somewhere too. As you say very strange, perhaps reduced staff at the station??

Agree, it seems a bit odd at that late stage.  But then, mankind has a history of living for years with inconveniences… for example, how is it we put a man on the moon years before we put wheels on suitcases?

 

Back to topic….!