Southern Maunsell Coaching Stock discussion

[sem34090]

Right, just a very quick question, hopefully:

 

Between a friend and I we have a four-car set of Hornby Maunsells (BTK, TK, FK, BTK) finished in BR Crimson & Cream, the brakes indicating that it is set No.247... now, I've looked it up via SEMG, and I think we may have a prototypical set (albeit the individual coach numbers may need changing). SEMG lists two sets under '247' and one of them matches the make-up of our set:

 

247 M     1933 - Wat-Bmth BTK-TK-FK-BTK 3777 1187

 

Now, no date of disbanding is given.

 

Basically, could someone confirm if we have a prototypical set?

[talisman56]

According to my records, Set 247 was formed in 1933 from previously loose stock, 1929 R4 high-window 6-cpt BTKs 3777/94 and TK 1187 were joined by low-window FK 7212, in service in 1927.

 

The original formation was BTK 3777-TK 1187-FK 7212-BTK 3794.

 

In the June 1951 CWA it was reported to have 1932 high-window CK 5691 in place of the TK and FK.

 

In 1955, CK 5691 was replaced by similar CK 5659.

 

In November 1961, CK 5659 was replaced by Bulleid CK 5881. Unit 247 was disbanded in 1962, the Maunsell brakes being condemned and the Bulleid CK released for further use.

Edited July 11, 2018 by talisman56

[talisman56]

While I'm on here, with the latest Dapol Maunsell offerings in the process of being delivered (the outstanding Olive Green ones should be in late this month), I have updated the Dapol production list and applicability which some of N gauge modellers might have seen on the Dapol Digest forum and which might be of interest here...

 

NB: These are all low-window R4 stock.

 

(Click on image to see readable version )

 

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by talisman56

[sem34090]

Ah... so I need to get a CK then... blast...

 

I doubt the set (BTK+TK+FK+BTK) will have been put into Crimson & Cream by 1951 would it?

[talisman56]

Ah... so I need to get a CK then... blast...

 

I doubt the set (BTK+TK+FK+BTK) will have been put into Crimson & Cream by 1951 would it?

 

Unlikely. They tried to keep the Maunsell stock in green for as long as possible...

[Dorsetmike]

Finally got my 3 set 394 and 2 x 4 compt brake 3rds to make up another set that the compo has been waiting for. I've been exchanging words with a chap on Shapeways "forum" re 3d printing open 3rds and catering cars. I'll also hopefully be having words with Adam Warr of Electra about some vinyls,in tha absence of any restaurants it should be possible to hack the windows etc of a Farish mainline to get an Ironclad Restaurant, the Maunsell restaurants have recessed doors which make things a bit more awkward.

 

The following image is work in progress, stretched to 59' to fit the Farish mainline, needs a bit more work, ventilators could be improved, only photo I could find the lining is not visible, so I've gone for the general looks of the Dapol stock. If anybody wants to play with it just right click the image and select "Copy image", open it in any image editor. I'm also working on a 3rd open, but those recessed doors again!

 

[CarriageShed]

I asked Etched Pixels about the availability of the Ironclad Pantry Third, but that was over a week ago now, and he hasn't replied.

 

Update 06 Aug 2018: He replied. The Ironclads are on a list of stock that needs to be replenished, but he's not sure when it'll happen.

Edited August 6, 2018 by CarriageShed

[autocoach]

Unfortunately the Hornby Restaurant Cars topic is mired in a OT discussion of Le Mans France and racing tracks.  So I will repeat my request here in hopes of a more enlightening response:

 

I have my Hornby R 4817 now on hand and have located my HMRS Sheet 10 with enough small shaded "SOUTHERN" s to re-letter. But does anyone know of a picture of a Malachite 1947 restaurant car so I can correctly place the lettering.  I have checked my King Illustrated Southern Coaches, John Scott-Morgan's Atlantic Coast Express, and every page of this forum and have not yet found a representation of the Malachite Southern livery version either in B&W or color.   And was the car lettered Restaurant Car? If so was it in the same location as the BR(S) Hornby version but in shaded lettering?

 

If you know of a picture, please post the picture or provide the reference so I can re-livery with confidence and have some assurance and peace of mind that will not incur the wrath of the MEN IN MALACHITE.....If copyright material, please send offline.

[Mallard60022]

Quick note to thank Spams for this archive as it has helped enormously in my search for clear info on Dining Cars used circa 1960 on the WOE Main Line through Seaton Junction. I have a 1961 CWN for Loco Hauled Trains; Restaurant and Buffet car workings with the actual coaches identified for each train and so I can now try to replicate this with various conversions/builds/ RTR (two Hornby D2651 Restaurant Firsts, either as D2651 or D2657 version (loose seats but almost identical externally). 

Thank you Spams.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Just a comment on the Hornby BR version. I reckon you can get away with a slight bit of modification and renumbering to create certain D2655s (roof detail differences) and D2657s (loose chairs), the latter being almost identical externally AFAICS, as I mentioned in post  159. This widens the scope for workings considerably.

Phil

[Wickham Green]

Unfortunately the Hornby Restaurant Cars topic is mired in an OT discussion of Le Mans France and racing tracks.  

Only very briefly mired - and now back on RAILWAY tracks ........

[ColHut]

Out of curiosity, did they try and keep the corridors on the same side within the sets? I am thinking that if they did then the brake 3rds would some times have the passenger-end of the brakes nextt to the loco or at the very end of the train.

 

regards

[bécasse]

Out of curiosity, did they try and keep the corridors on the same side within the sets? I am thinking that if they did then the brake 3rds would some times have the passenger-end of the brakes nextt to the loco or at the very end of the train.

 

No, but the Southern Railway did, in fact, have very strict rules about how its sets were formed. Generally numbered sets were made up using carriages numbered in sequence (bearing in mind that different types of carriage were in different number series) and there were even rules about which way round the composite vehicle was marshalled in the sets. The Southern Region carried on with the custom even up to the late fifties.

[N15class]

The LSWR liked alternating sides. I believe SR followed this practice.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Ah... so I need to get a CK then... blast...

 

I doubt the set (BTK+TK+FK+BTK) will have been put into Crimson & Cream by 1951 would it?

I don't have information about that particular set, but there are photos of Maunsell stock from 1949 onwards in Crimson and Cream. 

 

Mike Esau's 'Southern Then and Now' has pictures including one at Charing Cross in 1949 and an undated one at Padstow of a two coach set in Crimson and Cream hauled by a T9 with the tender still in 'Sunshine' livery but the loco carrying BR numbers. 

[bbishop]

The LSWR liked alternating sides. I believe SR followed this practice.

But not to the extent of having left and right hand brake thirds.

 

Bill

[N15class]

But not to the extent of having left and right hand brake thirds.Bill

I am afraid they did make odd handed brakes. Not so many as they are only needed on the sets with odd number of coaches.

Edited September 16, 2018 by N15class

[Wickham Green]

I am afraid they did make odd handed brakes. Not so many as they are only needed on the sets with odd number of coaches.

......... which didn't necessarily stay odd-numbered, of course ! 

[StephenB]

Hi

In 1959 some 40 Maunsell carriages were converted into 20 push-and-pull sets. This involved 20 dia 2403 BCK and 20 dia 2005/2007 SO, and this has been produced by Hornby in the 2403/2005 form. Two questions,

1) Has anyone attempted to backdate the BCK to as built condition, and

2) Does Hornby have any plans to produce this version?

I know the first page shows what can be done with Bill Bedford overlays.

Many thanks.

Steohen

For Steohen read Stephen

[talisman56]

I am afraid they did make odd handed brakes. Not so many as they are only needed on the sets with odd number of coaches.

 

To clarify: the LSWR constructed 'handed' brakes up to and including the 'Ironclads' (even the ones the SR built), but the SR Maunsell standard stock did not have handed brakes.

[Wickham Green]

Hi

In 1959 some 40 Maunsell carriages were converted into 20 push-and-pull sets. This involved 20 dia 2403 BCK and 20 dia 2005/2007 SO, and this has been produced by Hornby in the 2403/2005 form. Two questions,

1) Has anyone attempted to backdate the BCK to as built condition, and

2) Does Hornby have any plans to produce this version?

 

Many thanks.

Steohen

For Steohen read Stephen

1 : Dunno ! - but probably.

2 : They'd sell a few if they did .......... and the other 1935/6 variants too !

 

What's odd about these Brake Compos is that most were converted for P/P use and a couple had been broken up many years earlier, so there weren't many in original condition when the 'Preservation Era' arrived ......... yet No.6686 managed to find its way to the Bluebell in the very early years - and is still a joy to travel in !

Edited October 8, 2018 by Wickham Green

[Purley Oaks]

Really interesting thread.

 

Regarding the new Hornby Maunsell coaches and Set 399 in particular, can anyone tell me whether R4842 BR Maunsell Corridor Composite is low or high window on the corridor side? The two 4 Compartment Brakes, R4840/1 are low window.

 

All of my books are in storage prior to a house move. Typical!

 

Mal

[Dunsignalling]

Out of curiosity, did they try and keep the corridors on the same side within the sets? I am thinking that if they did then the brake 3rds would some times have the passenger-end of the brakes nextt to the loco or at the very end of the train.

 

regards

No, and van ends in sets were always marshalled outward.

 

Any running the other way round would have been loose stock added to the end of a set in which event there'd  be two coaches running van-to-van.

 

The last SR coaches to be built with "handed" brakes were the Ironclads.

 

John

Edited December 14, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Really interesting thread.

 

Regarding the new Hornby Maunsell coaches and Set 399 in particular, can anyone tell me whether R4842 BR Maunsell Corridor Composite is low or high window on the corridor side? The two 4 Compartment Brakes, R4840/1 are low window.

 

All of my books are in storage prior to a house move. Typical!

 

Mal

If it's intended to be part of the 3-set, it should be low window.

 

I'm a bit puzzled by Hornby selling these separately, their packaging of the previous "Somerset & Dorset" set displayed a refreshing flash of logic as these sets stayed together in their original formations  pretty much until withdrawal and few, if any, of the two types ran in other formations or as loose stock.

 

John

Edited December 16, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[chris45lsw]

If it's intended to be part of the 3-set, it should be low window.

 

I'm a bit puzzled by Hornby selling these separately, their packaging of the previous "Somerset & Dorset" set displayed a refreshing flash of logic as these sets stayed in their original formations pretty much until withdrawal and few, if any, of the two types ran in other formations or as loose stock.

 

John

 

Really interesting thread.

 

Regarding the new Hornby Maunsell coaches and Set 399 in particular, can anyone tell me whether R4842 BR Maunsell Corridor Composite is low or high window on the corridor side? The two 4 Compartment Brakes, R4840/1 are low window.

 

All of my books are in storage prior to a house move. Typical!

 

Mal

R4842 is numbered as S5145S, the low window composite in set 399 (the brake thirds were S3232S & S3233S).

 

Chris KT