RMweb Gold Popular Post kipford Posted December 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) 90% of my posts to date have concerned Brighton East the EM layout built by my son and myself using EMU’s etc around the year 2000. However my first love will always be kettles and for the last 20 years I have been involved with building the SHMRC’s EM pre-grouping Joint LNWR/GWR Shrewsbury to Hereford line layout called Hope under Dinmore, see layout of the month in Railway Modeller, October 2013. About 10 years ago I came across the LNWR 4.0’ shunting engine and its sister the crane engine. The crane engine was used to unload wagons in places that did not have yard crane available. I especially like quirky locomotives and rolling stock and the crane engine really fits the bill. So I started to gather information to scratch build one for Hope. Fast forward 10 years and I had got involved in other projects and the crane tank had languished. However as work runs down on Brighton I needed a new lunchtime challenge and thoughts turned again to producing a crane tank for Hope. To cut a long story short, discussion with fellow club member Dave Bridges, our guru of all things LNWR and John Redrup and Jol Wilkinson of London Road Models has resulted in me going away to design two kits. One for the crane tank and one for the shunting engine which if they prove up to the job will go into the LRM range of kits. Already John and Jol have provided a lot background help to help the project along. As this is my first loco kit (I have scratch built an R1 tank and most of the buildings on Brighton are effectively kits), I thought RMwebbers may be interested in the trials and tribulations of a first loco kit. So what weird and wonderful locos are we looking at: Crane Tank: Shunting Engine: Variants, there are number of basic variants that will need to be catered for: Crane Tank: 1. Wooden and metal brake shoes 2. Long and short jib 3. Small spectacle plate and large spectacle plate with cab roof. 4. Multitudes of different buffers! Shunting Engine: 1. Wooden and metal brake shoes 2. Small spectacle plate and large spectacle plate with cab roof. 3. Multitudes of different buffers! Initial discussions with Jol (LNWRmodeller on this parish) suggest we will end up with a mixed media kit. Etched brass/NS for the chassis cab sides etc, Milky Bar resin casting for the boiler, lost wax castings for the fiddly bits. Progress to date. I am starting with the crane tank, on the basis the shunting engine is relatively small modification (chop off the back!!!). first step is to create a CAD model of the complete engine. This is not the kit but takes into account some aspects of material thickness, wire size, allowance for gauge, compensation, motor/gearbox combinations. This model is probably about 80% complete, the basic shape is established and I am now adding detail. Once model is complete it will be used as a template to break the model into its constituent kit components, I effectively remodel it again. This is a technique I found very effective on my Brighton Layout, although it does add extra design time. Motor/Gearbox combination has been decided and either an LRM or Highlevel gearbox with a Mashima 1220 motor and flywheel will fit. The chassis will have half etched slots to allow for hornblocks and compensation to suit the builders choice. I am though going to design the parts for rigid beam compensation and may include the parts in the etch. That will need to be discussed with LRM. Once the kit components are designed, my thoughts are at the moment to 3d print the cast resin and lost wax parts, then laser cut in plastic the metals bits and assemble it as an engineering prototype to try and eliminate as many problems as possible before we commit to etches etc. Final picture is a couple of orthogonal views against the weights drawing I used to establish the basic sizes. Updates will come when there is something more interesting to show. Edited December 18, 2014 by kipford 22 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
avonside1563 Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Very interesting and such an unusual prototype. I would imagine the L&NW Society will be interested and may have some useful resources for you also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Oh wow! Ive been wanting a model of this. If a kit does get developed, Id seriously consider buying one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 (edited) Once the kit components are designed, my thoughts are at the moment to 3d print the cast resin and lost wax parts, then laser cut in plastic the metals bits and assemble it as an engineering prototype to try and eliminate as many problems as possible before we commit to etches etc. I am not sure that I would bother with the laser cut plastic prototype. Metal does behave slightly differently and if you design the kit well you will want to fold up components and/or use jigs to enable them to be fitted with each other. This can't be replicated in plastic for the most part. I would simply spend the little bit of money to have the etching done. As it is a smallish prototype, my guess is that the set up fee would be £20 and the metal another £20, per thickness that you use (possibly less if you go for a good proportion of resin). Edited December 24, 2014 by Portchullin Tatty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicktoix Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 (edited) Why not do the whole lot in metal? The saddle tank presents no great problems look at Judith Edge Kitson and High Level Kits for how it is done. Resin is not without its problems. A test etch in metal will reveal the problems: plastic will not! 3d printing an resin seems to be the current answer to everything. Both technologies have serious limitations in the scales in which we model and for the details we want. Nick Edited December 24, 2014 by Nicktoix Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Why not do the whole lot in metal? The saddle tank presents no great problems look at Judith Edge Kitson and High Level Kits for how it is done. Resin is not without its problems. A test etch in metal will reveal the problems: plastic will not! 3d printing an resin seems to be the current answer to everything. Both technologies have serious limitations in the scales in which we model and for the details we want. Nick Nick, I disagree with the suggestion of doing the saddle tank as etched parts. The original George Norton Class 23 L&Y tank kit has this but many people found it difficult to assemble so London Road Models now provide it as a resin casting. The same approach was then used with the LNWR Special Tank. If it was designed to be produced from etched parts then some sort of jig on which to build it would be a very good idea - along the lines of the running plate jig used on a number of LRM and Finney kits (and possibly others). As I haven't built a HL or JE kit, can you enlighten us as to how they do it? Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted December 29, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 29, 2014 Mark, Nick. One of the keys to achieving good design in a speedy but cost effective way is to mitigate risk. Preparing the etch masks is a time consuming business once you have sorted out the actual design of the product you are aiming to manufacture. So if you can sort out a lot of the problems, like does it actually go together, does it look right, oops I forgot that part, that part is wrong etc BEFORE the etch artwork is prepared it can save a lot of aggravation and potentially cost. If you look at post 114 of my Brighton Thread, you will see the plate steel buffers which were laser cut in phenolic paper and were designed to be put together in the same manner as an etched brass kit except using superglue. The phenolic is available in 0.25, 0.5 and 0.75 mmm thickness, it is a lot stiffer than Romark (laser cutting plastic) and it can by successfully scuffed to achieve the laser equivalent of a half etch. Whilst not exactly the same as brass it is going to allow me to get very close to the actual item. Another reason to do it (apart from the fact I can) is that I have very easy access to Jonathan Buckies (Great Shefford/Clockwork Models) laser cutter so any problems parts can usually be turned around within 24 hours if I ask nicely! which will not be possible with an etch. Why the problem with 3D printing? The level of detail you can achieve in a 3-printed part is equal to or better than cast parts, see post 99 of my Brighton thread for the Southern region buffer sides I had printed. There is no intention to use 3D printing for production parts (I have concerns over long term durability of some of the plastics used anyway). However I do intend to use it for pre-production parts to check the fit etc and to make the masters for the cast parts (I have access to a very expensive printer at work ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicktoix Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 1) To make the tank in metal : fit formers to the spectacle plate and smokebox front plate, aligned on each with wire thro holes. Tin the edges of the formers before fitting as well as the edges of the tank. Mark on the waste of the etch where the sharper bend need to be. Bend the tank to suit, large radius first and the solder it all together. There are some issues with the riveted straps but easily dealt with. 2) 3D printing is fine for small part patterns which can then be tidied up. It doesn't seem to work too well for large radius bits tho' (been trying to produce clerestory roofs) 3) Drive the rear axle and make the lower half of the boiler part of the chassis ? High Level Models of the Neilson and Black Hawthorn do this. You do not need a large motor. Both my HL kits will pull 10+ wagons more than enough for this size loco have no extra weight in them and a 1220 motor and the wagons are all kit built. 4) I think only 3 crane tanks were built by the LNWR and their main duty was in the works. They were certainly not trip working locos (fancy firing one for a 50 mile trip??) and would very rarely if ever be seen in local yards although they could have been found in docks where the 0-4-0s spent alot of their time. That's my last words on the subject. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Any news on this project? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted January 30, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2015 LNWR Lives On This is not going to be a quick project, I have not had time to do any work on it since the new year, due to layout commitments and writing an article for BRM. I expect to restart work in about two weeks. How long after I am not sure, However I would like to have an RP version for EXPO EM or at the latest Scaleforum so at least we can see what it looks like. I will update the thread when I have something more interesting to add. Regards Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Dave, I will look forward to it in a few weeks, ive yet to find the info I do have on these locos but when I do I will let you know, somewhere in a sheaf of papers I know I had a very interesting article on the crane tank Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted January 30, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2015 Dave Any info would be gratefully recieved Regàrds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Dave, Two background info sources for you "A pictorial Tribute To Crewe Works In The Age of Steam", Edward Talbot, OPC, 0-86093-395-4 Its not page numbered but towards the back is a page labelled Works Shunting Engines, which shows in 1913 six crane shunters were employed in the works, numbers 3246, 3247, 3248, 3249, 3251 and 3252 (Spare). There was also six 4ft shunters, 3001, 3007, 3009, 3084, 3087 and 3101 as well as 3 2ft 6in shunters and a single special tank. "Crane Locomotives" by R.A.S Abbott, Goose, 0-900404-19-1, pages 54-55 states the LNWR built a class of 8 crane locomotives between Dec 1892 and May 189, Final No's 3246-3252 and 3310. All were classed as departmental stock, no 3250 was moved to Wolverton in Feb 1895 and no 3310 followed in August 95, but did a bit of back and forth with Crewe. I will keep looking for the articles I have Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestag Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 Kipford, I'd especially be interested in the 4' shunter. Considering how small the model would be, possibly the saddle could profitably be cast in W/M rather than resin, for weight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I haven't bought any of the saddle tank kits precisely because of anxieties concerning rolling the tank. I have heard stories of vastly more skilled modellers than I getting saddle tanks wrong and I have decided they're not for me. Looking at the preserved example the other week at Preston the saddle tank seems to be unusually 'thin', perhaps it would present even greater problems then the normal 'chunky' tanks. Nice prototype though, unusually large for an 0-4-0ST. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted May 4, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 4, 2015 Saturday week I am going to photograph the shunting engine at the Ribble Railway on my way back from holiday in the lake district. On the Sunday I have a meeting with the LRM crew at EXPO EM to discuss progress and a couple of design conundrums I have with the chassis. About 90% of the modelling to get all the bits looking right is done and about 30% of the kit design. As to materials nothing is finalised yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 I would definitely say avoid having to roll anything in the kit. This is a lovely and unusual prototype, and would be useful to many people, best not overcomplicate it if a casting can be made. Resin may work, but WM would add weight right over the wheels. Not all much room for weight on this loco otherwise. Im looking forward to more updates and an eventual release. Ill be one of the first to order one, thats for sure. Any idea on price range, wheels, and gearbox? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestag Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Correct wheels are not currently available for this loco, to my knowledge. Gibson does H pattern wheels in the correct diameter but the drivers are a GW item and have too many spokes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Unfortunately that is a problem we are faced with on many kits. Sharman would have been the most likely source but I don't have their last list to hand to confirm whether they did do them. Edited May 8, 2015 by LNWRmodeller Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestag Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Unfortunately that is a problem we are faced with on many kits. Sharman would have been the most likely source but I don't have their last list to hand to confirm whether they did do them. I'm mystified by the whole Sharman thing. The few that are available are priced outrageously, yet they cannot cost remarkably more to produce than Gibson wheels. No point in wishing that whoever owns them would sell off the tooling to somebody who was prepared to make the whole range available again and at a sensible price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Wait. What are the wheel sizes? Even if we cant get the proper spoked wheels, we must be able to get some sort of acceptable compromise or this kit is already dead. Or better yet, someone may have the means to make wheels for it. Surely someone on the forum knows how to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I'm mystified by the whole Sharman thing. The few that are available are priced outrageously, yet they cannot cost remarkably more to produce than Gibson wheels. No point in wishing that whoever owns them would sell off the tooling to somebody who was prepared to make the whole range available again and at a sensible price. Currently(?) £11.00 per axle AFAIK, including crankpins, so less than Markits, Ultrascale and Exactoscale. They are fairly labour intensive to produce, as the tyre has to be placed in the mould, the crankpin screw fitted into a holder and located in the mould which is then closed and the plastic injected. Wait to cool, remove and dismantle the mould, etc. By comparison AGW wheels have the centre moulded and pressed into the tyre (which is why they occasionally come adrift). If the centres are moulded on an automatic machine, then it is a much faster process. I happen to know the current SW owners quite well and I am aware that the moulds need updating to make the process more streamlined. MRJ #5 carried an article by Iain Rice aptly named "Sharmanworks". Worth a read to understand Mike Sharman's "cottage industry" manufacturing approach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Also, a 'standard' sized rim doesn't fit all the same nominally sized moulds, so batch production of the rims on a CNC lathe is more expensive than it need be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluestag Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Jol, OK, possibly they are not over priced. But they are expensive. I'm in EM and Gibson wheels suit me. I'll dig out MRJ5 and give it a read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted May 19, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) UpdateTook a lot of photos of the shunting engine at the Ribble Railway, it has filled in a lot of gaps. Had a good session with thr LRM boys on Sunday, which sorted out a few issues I had. The only real area of concern now in terms of the definition of the crane engine is the detail of the crane below the beveL gear (what you cannot see in photographs taken from the outside). Hopefully some drawings John Redrup is sourcing from the LNWR Society will help. The wheel situation should be solved as Colin Seymour of Gibson Wheels has agred in principle to supply them. So its onwards with the design. Hopefully I will have a mock up by Scaleforum or at the lastest the SHMRC Show in Portsmouth in November.PS Thinking when the kits are finished of building a 5" gauge live steam version of the shunting engine! Edited May 20, 2015 by kipford 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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