Sarn (Montgomeryshire) and Nantcwmdu (South Wales) plus Montgomery Town in 7mm

[Quarryscapes]

That drawing is the one that goes with the odd brake gear we were discussing not so long ago, and it doesn't go a long way to explaining it! The comment same as low sided wagon is interesting, since to my knowledge none of the 2 planks ever had such brakes, they just had regular single sided lever brakes. 

 

I've got a couple of HMRS drawings for Cambrian cattle wagons, one by Mike Lloyd which is prototypical (Official photo is widely published) and the other is a Metropolitan Cammell design of 1892 which uses the ancient style of having an iron grid in the bottom of the sides but is built on a steel underframe. 

 

In the NRM are some more interesting Cambrian wagons - an LNWR proportioned 10 ton open with steel underframe, 18' long and 9'9" wheelbase and another of 12 tons 17' long and on 9'6" wheelbase, also steel framed. I have no idea if these were ever built, but I have a photo of a steel underframed 2 plank that I have not seen a corresponding drawing for! 

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

The wagons look very nice.  I should not be too hard on yourself with the roofs.

 

I assume you use the method of bending plasticard around a whisky bottle or some such and filling it with boiling water having stuck it to it with something.  The last one I tried using masking tape as advised and the tape fell off after the bottle was filled.  It has only ever worked for me in 009.  Still, we must keep trying.

 

Your diorama/backscene looks really interesting.  Hopefully I will have something to take photos against soon.

 

The only picture of timber wagons I have seen is on the Welshpool and Llanfair where there was about 10ft between the two trucks.  Is it the same on the Cambrian mainline or are they closely coupled?

 

Thank you for information on the 5&9 kits I will go and have a look.  I will have to have a look in my histories; I think the Coal Merchant was, Jones the Coal Merchant, but I am not sure.

 

I am just getting over a very short sharp stomach bug as well.  Hope you get back to normal soon.

 

All the best,

[corneliuslundie]

I hadn't previously noticed the comment on the timber wagon drawing about the brakes. Thanks to Quarryscapes for drawing my attention to it. I wonder if the relevant vehicle is on HMRS drawing 21737, though that is dated a decade earlier. I may get this drawing when I go to Butterley next. The Mike Lloyd drawings may be available to me from the WRRC, I think.(and will eventually be in one of the WRRC Cambrian volumes of Mike Lloyd drawings when it appears, which will be a couple of years at least) though I can only see one which might fit the bill.

 

I don't think timber wagons would often have travelled in the style ChrisN suggests on the main line, though someone will now prove me wrong (and then we can all model it).

 

Re the cattle wagon with "an iron grid in the bottom of the sides", the Rhymney and Brecon & Merthyr both had some. I am still trying to think how to model one of the Rhymney ones (there is a drawing in one of the wagon books and there has also been a larger scale drawing in Welsh Railways Archive, redrawn from the Metropolitan RC&W Co drawing). The problem is to make the sides strong enough to hold the vertical rods without being too thick, as that would be extremely obvious. Also the vertical rods come out pretty fine in 4mm. I made a start in plastic about two years ago, having sourced some suitable wire, but ground to a halt, and I suspect it might need metal and soldering, not my favourite technique.

 

Something from a query I put in another section of RMWeb which may be useful. I need quite a few "To carry" transfers for Rhymney wagons, and there is only one pair per HMRS GWR wagons sheet. But I was informed that the Broad Gauge Society has a sheet with multiple sets of this lettering. I shall have to investigate the Society further as this is the second time they have had something I needed for a company other than the GWR.

 

I didn't realise one could catch stomach bugs over the web!

 

All the best and thanks to all for the comments.

 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

Thank you.  Again very interesting and useful as long as I remember it or where to look.  I ought to make notes I suppose.

 

I have looked on the 5and 9 website which I again knew about but had not made to connection.  I will probably use whatever comes up next, PO coal wagon that is unless of course Jones has managed to buy a second hand LB&SCR wagon cheap, although where from I do not know.  The LCDR wagons would go with my LCDR beer vans but I would be stretching things to run them in Wales.

 

My wife said she did not believe it was the same bug as it would mean that computer viruses were getting more virulent.

[Quarryscapes]

Jonathan,

Thank you.  Again very interesting and useful as long as I remember it or where to look.  I ought to make notes I suppose.

 

I have looked on the 5and 9 website which I again knew about but had not made to connection.  I will probably use whatever comes up next, PO coal wagon that is unless of course Jones has managed to buy a second hand LB&SCR wagon cheap, although where from I do not know.  The LCDR wagons would go with my LCDR beer vans but I would be stretching things to run them in Wales.

 

My wife said she did not believe it was the same bug as it would mean that computer viruses were getting more virulent.

 

There's that great pic of Morfa mawddach with the Cambrian's stash of foreign wagons - quite a few LCDR wagons in their midst! 

[Quarryscapes]

Looking at the photo in GWW, it's worth noting that the timber wagons as built did not have crown plates fitted to the solebars, and the brake shoes are only mounted one side, but lever both sides same end. Perhaps it was this 2 shoe arrangement that was meant by the note on the drawing? Would definitely be worth Seeing the Metropolitan drawing. EDIT: I wrote that before realising you have a different photo in GWW of the 2 permanently coupled wagons, they're not in mine but I do have a poor copy of the photo from the Mike Lloyd collection. They are smaller, and are drawing number 71429 (Cambrian), 9006 (NRM) and I think they are the same as in HMRS 25454, sadly my photo isn't clear enough to make out running number. 

 

I built an LNWR cattle wagon of similar design using 3D printed outside framing, then a fold up etched fret containing the planking and the vertical rods which acted as a box to which the outside framing was glued. Worked very well, was thinking of doing the same for the Cambrian ones. 

 

 

I hope you don't mind but I've been preparing a 3D printed body for the above timber wagon from your measurements and drawing, I think I'm going to have to get a large scale copy of the drawing though to fathom out the brake gear! 

[corneliuslundie]

Just to clarify regarding the timber wagons. The earlier edition of Great Western Way has a photo of a single timber wagon which looks likeno 2241 and has the script lettering with the feathers emblem. There is also what could be a builder's plate and it has no crown plates. I wonder if the solebars are flitched.  It also has the single ended brake gear with brake shoes only on the side with the right hand lever.

 

The later landscape foprmat edition has two photos of timber wagons. One is of a permanently coupled pair which are pretty similar to the draweing I have but again no crown plates. I can't read the number but it seems to start 22 and has four digits. I can't tell whether both vehicles have the same number. Livery is similar to the above. The right hand vehicle again appears to have a builder's plate, which would point to it not being the same as the drawing.

 

There is also a photo of a single timber wagon.  This time the number is given as 598. The lettering is in a sans serif style and there are no feathers. Again no crown plates. There is a brake lever on only yhe side with the brakes.  This one has no side rails so one can see tghe whoile depth of the solebar and the ends of the flolor planks. There is what looks like a builder's plate though I can't read it.

 

The drawing shown above does have crown plates so is of none of these wagons! More research needed.

 

I am interested in the suggested way of constructing the cattle wagon. It sounds like a good idea.

 

Completely off topic for Sarn but within the theme of the Railways of Wales, yesterday I took the express bus from Newtown to Cardiff, some of it roughly along the route of the Mid Wales Railway, though more direct and missing out Llanidloes and calling at Llandrindod Wells. It made me appreciate living in Mid Wales. A beautiful day with a little snow on the higher hills, especially the Brecon Beacons. And through the disaster that is modern Merthyr. I can't help feeling that it is much, much worse than the industrial revolution version which has been virtually eliminated. In comparison, Pontypridd looks a proper town with proper town buildings rather than seemingly endless sheds and office buildings which never saw an architect.

 

Then back this morning from Newport by train, through idyllic countryside with lots of young lambs in the fields and plenty of traditional signalling. Even Cwmbran looks OK if one concentrates on the hiils beyond! I really recommend this trip to see the Marches; though perhaps the scenery wouldn't look so good when it is raining cats and dogs with a gale blowing.

 

Jonathan

[Donw]

Having lived in the boarders (shropshire and Glocestershire) for some time We have travelled quite a lot round there. I had a series of meeting at Oswestry my choice of route was to take the quiet roads where possible. now with the Motorhome we frequently use the Mid Wales route along the wye.

Don

[alanbuttler]

We are lucky to live in a fabulous part of the world Jonathan, the days this week have been stunning with the sun out and a little snow on the tops.  

[steveNCB7754]

We are lucky to live in a fabulous part of the world Jonathan, the days this week have been stunning with the sun out and a little snow on the tops.  

 

Hi Alan,

You are right about the area at this time of year.  Tomorrow I shall be making my leisurely way up from Dorset, to stay with friends in Rhayader, as I have (on a regular basis) since 1985.  Then, on Friday, I shall travel from there up to the Llangollen Railway for the first day of the 'Steel, Steam & Stars IV', gala event.  Sunshine and scenery on the Wye and the Dee, all in one weekend -  it does not get much better than that.

 

Regards

Steve

[Quarryscapes]

Just to clarify regarding the timber wagons. The earlier edition of Great Western Way has a photo of a single timber wagon which looks likeno 2241 and has the script lettering with the feathers emblem. There is also what could be a builder's plate and it has no crown plates. I wonder if the solebars are flitched.  It also has the single ended brake gear with brake shoes only on the side with the right hand lever.

 

The later landscape foprmat edition has two photos of timber wagons. One is of a permanently coupled pair which are pretty similar to the draweing I have but again no crown plates. I can't read the number but it seems to start 22 and has four digits. I can't tell whether both vehicles have the same number. Livery is similar to the above. The right hand vehicle again appears to have a builder's plate, which would point to it not being the same as the drawing.

 

There is also a photo of a single timber wagon.  This time the number is given as 598. The lettering is in a sans serif style and there are no feathers. Again no crown plates. There is a brake lever on only yhe side with the brakes.  This one has no side rails so one can see tghe whoile depth of the solebar and the ends of the flolor planks. There is what looks like a builder's plate though I can't read it.

 

The drawing shown above does have crown plates so is of none of these wagons! More research needed.

 

I am interested in the suggested way of constructing the cattle wagon. It sounds like a good idea.

 

Completely off topic for Sarn but within the theme of the Railways of Wales, yesterday I took the express bus from Newtown to Cardiff, some of it roughly along the route of the Mid Wales Railway, though more direct and missing out Llanidloes and calling at Llandrindod Wells. It made me appreciate living in Mid Wales. A beautiful day with a little snow on the higher hills, especially the Brecon Beacons. And through the disaster that is modern Merthyr. I can't help feeling that it is much, much worse than the industrial revolution version which has been virtually eliminated. In comparison, Pontypridd looks a proper town with proper town buildings rather than seemingly endless sheds and office buildings which never saw an architect.

 

Then back this morning from Newport by train, through idyllic countryside with lots of young lambs in the fields and plenty of traditional signalling. Even Cwmbran looks OK if one concentrates on the hiils beyond! I really recommend this trip to see the Marches; though perhaps the scenery wouldn't look so good when it is raining cats and dogs with a gale blowing.

 

Jonathan

 

I must hunt out that version of GWW, sounds like I'm missing out!

 

The timber truck with the sans serif is the later design 1918-9 or thereabouts when the Cambrian seemed to have run out of wagons! HMRS 25453 should cover this one, and Dragon models do an etched kit. There's a photo of a GW liveried one in Cambrian Album v2. 

 

Mid Wales always looks good to me, used to love going to work on the rescue boats on Clywedog when I lived in Oswestry. 

[alanbuttler]

Hi Alan,

You are right about the area at this time of year.  Tomorrow I shall be making my leisurely way up from Dorset, to stay with friends in Rhayader, as I have (on a regular basis) since 1985.  Then, on Friday, I shall travel from there up to the Llangollen Railway for the first day of the 'Steel, Steam & Stars IV', gala event.  Sunshine and scenery on the Wye and the Dee, all in one weekend -  it does not get much better than that.

 

Regards

Steve

 

I'm up there for Friday as well and possibly Saturday.  Lets hope the weather is good!

[corneliuslundie]

Out of interest I looked up Bradshaw for 1922 to see what the train journey to Newport would have been like. Instead of 12.00 I would have had to leave Newtown at about 9.35. Change at Moat Lane and Brecon with a long wait at the latter (plenty of time for lunch) and about an hour earlier arrival at Rhiwderyn. But only two changes, the same as by bus.

 

And I noted on a placard this morning that Newtown is apparently among the 50 best towns in which to live.

 

Back to timber wagons soon, but at the moment it is too dusty in the workroom as I deal with an old door.

 

And a delay on the loco as the EMGS is out of one of the components I need.

 

Jonathan

[Anotheran]

And I noted on a placard this morning that Newtown is apparently among the 50 best towns in which to live

Possibly because it takes so long to get to Newport

 

But you do get to travel through some of the most beautiful countryside... The Radnorshire hills to Builth, then the Wye Valley... Almost makes it worth going to Newport!

[Donw]

Back in 1904 you could have caught the 9:35am ex Aberystwyth with a through coach to Newport Moat lane 11:20 arriving at Newport 3:45. The return left Newport at 10:55am reaching Moat Lane at 3:25 and Aber at 5:10. Not exactly impressive timings but oh that one could do the trip today!

Don

[steveNCB7754]

I'm up there for Friday as well and possibly Saturday.  Lets hope the weather is good!

 

Just got back home this afternoon.

 

Great day on Friday.  Parked at Corwen -  pretty chilly waiting for first train of the day there, especially as it was 40 minutes late!  Plenty of 8-coupled action, plus the Bulleid and the the 9F amongst others -  what more could you want.  My day finished at 6.15 (then 2-hour drive back to friends), but you could hold out until gone 11.00 if so minded.  Hope you had a good day too.

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

I just picked up The Cambrian Railway Vol II by Christiansen and Miller.  Page 138 it says that if a timber load was too long for one wagon then two wagons were held together with a chain, the load acting as the framing.

[corneliuslundie]

It's a good job I shan't need to propel loaded pairs of timber wagons connected by a chain. On Sarn they will come in empty and go out loaded, so an interesting option opens up.

 

Today I hope to complete the wiring so I can actually start testing the trackwork. A trip to Shrewsbury yesterday allowed me to buy the odd plugs and sockets I needed so there is now really no excuse (as always, very helpful staff in Maplins).

 

But the door is still occupying part of the modelling room so I shall be a bit limited on activities as I continue to remove many, many layers of paint and create enormous amounts of dust and paint shavings.

 

Jonathan

[corneliuslundie]

From the Mid Wales Bugle and Sarn Courant

Great Excitement at Sarn

Sunday 15th March, from Our Correspondent

There was great rejoicing in Sarn yesterday, and bunting flew from every tree, to celebrate the arrival of the first Steam Locomotive on the new railway line at present being constructed from Abermule to Church Stoke. Lent to the Cambrian Railways by the Great Western Railway, the locomotive managed, with assistance from a hand from the sky, and after various alterations to the interlocking and other mechanisms, to reach the end of each of the sidings at Sarn though no track has yet been laid any further in the direction of Church Stoke.

Sad to say, however, it appears that those laying the rails have not been working to the standard specified by the Railway Company and the locomotive left the rails on several occasions on the point work in the station entrance. The Railway Company has called on the Contractor to rectify these defects in the track as soon as possible and made it clear that no further payments will be forthcoming until this has been achieved. In the meantime opening of the line to goods traffic has been postponed indefinitely.

A correspondent writes: Later in the day when the locomotive was returning to Abermule it left the track, rolled down an embankment and sustained no little damage. An eye witness reports that both buffers at one end of the locomotive were damaged and will have to be replaced, and one at the other end was bent. Fortunately, the crew were unscathed and remained in the locomotive cab, though both were suffering greviously from shock and had to be relieved of their duties for the rest of the day. An enquiry is to be held to ascertain the cause of the derailment. Colonel Druitt, representing the Board of Trade, is expected to arrive in the next few days.

[Donw]

You haven't got a P4 vehicle on EM track have you. I suspect a bit of fetling by the ganger will sort it out. As a former project manager I know the pressure to declare something open before all the bugs have been sorted out.

Don

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

My 'Like' was for the way you did the post not that your loco was damaged.  I hope that it is not too bad.

 

As for the engine crew, well, Edwardian railwaymen were as tough as old boots, or rather hard plastic/whitemetal. 

[corneliuslundie]

Report from the GWR at Stafford Road

 

Locomotive 1542 has been repaired following the accident on the Sarn branch. Steel buffer heads have been fitted at the the front and rear in place of the damaged cast white metal ones fitted when it was built. At the same time the opportunity has been taken to fit the locomotive with couplings of the type normally used on the Sarn branch in place of the AJ type previously fitted. The rear screw couplings have also been replaced as some parts were missing, and vacuum brakes have been fitted.

 

Back to 2015: GWR locomotive no 1542 was built at the Stafford Road works of the GWR in 1880 to the designs of William Dean. It was built with a type W3 boiler with a large dome, received a Belpaire type B4 boiler in 1904, pannier tanks in 1928 and was withdrawn in 1951, the last of its class. The model was acquired when a collection was being sold at Expo EM a few years ago. It appears to be from a kit, and may once have belonged to a modeller much more eminent that I shall ever be. What in fact happened was that I had it on the baseboard because I was testing the wiring, but forgot when I upended the board to access wiring on the underside. It fell about six inches onto the back scene board. Unfortunately, it is evident that the break gear also suffered damage as it recently dropped onto the ballast during further track testing. Examination revealed that the plastic is very brittle and had sheared in two places. Repairs are possible but will be fiddly.

 

I have now replaced the recalcitrant Lemanco point motor and this one works. However, I still need to adjust the link between the point motor and the turnout as the first attempt to use it showed that it was putting such a great strain on the soldered joints between the tiebar and the switch rails that one failed. This is currently causing some heads scratching as there is not much room under the board to reposition the point motor.

 

One of the other turnouts was causing derailments because the gap between the switch rail and the stock rail was too small and also the switch rail was not sitting close enough to its stock rail when closed, so that the loco wheel was going the wrong side of the switch rail when it should be following the straight route. This has now been adjusted and is working correctly. The linkage on the third turnout has been redone with one fewer crank so there is less loss in the movement and this is now working fine.

 

It is likely that while I think about how to resite the point motor and repair the loco brakes I shall get on with the timber wagons. Somehow, I always go back to wagon building – which is why I have far too many, no complete carriages and only a couple of working locos.

 

Jonathan

[Donw]

You seem to be sorting it out. Regarding the problem with the point blade. It is important that it sits snuggly against the stock rail. Have you put a set in the curved stock rail the set should be at the same angle as the blade planning. That gives the blade a straight piece to close against. If you try to close the blade against a curve it is easy to get the tip out slightly. The other thing I have started doing Is to chamfer the top edge of the blade tip rather than trying to get it wafer thin the suggestion came from Martin Wynne. 

As  regards to the last bit I don't think you can have too many wagons can you the real railways seemed to have an awful lot.

Don

[burgundy]

Jonathan

You have my sympathy. I have spent much of the available modelling time over the last few weeks in "system integrating" Vintners Yard. By this I mean sorting out the locos that do not run smoothly, trying to work out why certain stock does not like particular sections of track/turnouts and trying to get AJ couplings to work as intended.

I am sure that no layout ever gets built without some snags to iron out, but, with hindsight, I can now see how much of the last weeks' work could have been avoided by doing things more precisely in the first place - in particular, attention to detail in building turnouts and loco chassis. Never mind. It will all be better next time.

Best wishes

Eric     

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

Railway modelling is about relaxing and enjoying yourself.  If where you have the most fun is wagon building then that is not a problem, is it?