Mid-Cornwall Lines - 1950s Western Region in 00

[5BarVT]

Paul, it's just occurred to me that you could get the best of both worlds. You could build a frame but without the mechanical interlocking, then use EEMECks to provide electrical interlocking. You could probably drive the EEMECKs from your computer, although don't ask me how!

I have already had that thought and looked at Harold’s web site. I’m not sure whether I can get all types of electric lock that I would want (which may be different to need). However, to add EEMECKs to each lever that I would want comes up with a nasty price tag so I haven’t investigated further.

My plan is ‘on screen’ to begin with, then perhaps by switches to give something physical. A frame could come later when I’m rich and famous!

But thanks for the thought anyway.

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

I have already had that thought and looked at Harold’s web site. I’m not sure whether I can get all types of electric lock that I would want (which may be different to need). However, to add EEMECKs to each lever that I would want comes up with a nasty price tag so I haven’t investigated further.

My plan is ‘on screen’ to begin with, then perhaps by switches to give something physical. A frame could come later when I’m rich and famous!

But thanks for the thought anyway.

Paul.

 

It could get very interesting trying to create a circuit controller handling 4 lever positions 

[5BarVT]

It could get very interesting trying to create a circuit controller handling 4 lever positions 

That’s why I don’t think that Indication Locking using an NBDR lock is possible. I think that an NR lock with detection in the signal locks might be achievable.

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

That’s why I don’t think that Indication Locking using an NBDR lock is possible. I think that an NR lock with detection in the signal locks might be achievable.

Paul.

Normal Both Directions (Detection?) Reverse?

 

Paul/Mike, please feel free to carry on the discussion - it's fascinating even though most of it is beyond me!

[The Stationmaster]

Normal Both Directions (Detection?) Reverse?

 

Paul/Mike, please feel free to carry on the discussion - it's fascinating even though most of it is beyond me!

 

Paul can do the technical translation and I'll start with the operational 'why'.  If you are using mechanical interlocking signal levers are interlocked with point levers as you know and signal levers are locked or released by the point lever being in a certain position.  The assumption in that is that the position of the point switches will correspond with the position of the operating lever in the signalbox because there is a rigid mechanical link between the two.  And with a facing point there is an additional safety feature through point detection which ensures the point switches are properly closed to the specified tolerance before the wire connection to the signal will operate the signal arm (although the lever might still be released in the interlocking.

 

But if you operate the points by power there will be a time lag between the position of the lever being changed and the movement of the point switches to correspond with the position of the lever (and if the points are operated by hand generator that time lag will be even greater).  Therefore you need a mechanism to ensure that the lever in the signalbox cannot travel  its full distance in either direction until the points have moved to a position which will correspond with the position of the lever at full travel.  This is done by using a circuit controller (instead of a normal electric lock) and having 4 notches in the lever frame floor plate instead of the normal two.  

 

Thus the lever which operates the point is moved part way to the relevant intermediate position where it is checked by the notch in the floor plate - basically there to remind the Signalman it has to stop there and not at full stroke - and is electrically locked at that position, this operation causes the points to motor to the required position.  Once the point switches are (electrically) detected as having fully moved to the desired position the lock is released allowing the lever to be fully moved to its intended position which is therefore now in agreement with the position of the point switches.

 

Sorry but I don't think I've got any photos to illustrate this.

[St Enodoc]

Paul can do the technical translation and I'll start with the operational 'why'.  If you are using mechanical interlocking signal levers are interlocked with point levers as you know and signal levers are locked or released by the point lever being in a certain position.  The assumption in that is that the position of the point switches will correspond with the position of the operating lever in the signalbox because there is a rigid mechanical link between the two.  And with a facing point there is an additional safety feature through point detection which ensures the point switches are properly closed to the specified tolerance before the wire connection to the signal will operate the signal arm (although the lever might still be released in the interlocking.

 

But if you operate the points by power there will be a time lag between the position of the lever being changed and the movement of the point switches to correspond with the position of the lever (and if the points are operated by hand generator that time lag will be even greater).  Therefore you need a mechanism to ensure that the lever in the signalbox cannot travel  its full distance in either direction until the points have moved to a position which will correspond with the position of the lever at full travel.  This is done by using a circuit controller (instead of a normal electric lock) and having 4 notches in the lever frame floor plate instead of the normal two.  

 

Thus the lever which operates the point is moved part way to the relevant intermediate position where it is checked by the notch in the floor plate - basically there to remind the Signalman it has to stop there and not at full stroke - and is electrically locked at that position, this operation causes the points to motor to the required position.  Once the point switches are (electrically) detected as having fully moved to the desired position the lock is released allowing the lever to be fully moved to its intended position which is therefore now in agreement with the position of the point switches.

 

Sorry but I don't think I've got any photos to illustrate this.

Ah, I see. That makes sense although I've never come across it. I have come across three-position levers in Southern boxes, e.g. the king lever at Horsted Keynes (27, although I'm pretty sure it used to be 24 before the latest resignalling). I don't think that you can do three- or four-position lever locks with EEMECKs and a Modratec frame. There wouldn't be enough room to make four holes in a single tappet. However, if you really wanted to go that way a different solenoid with a smaller armature and hence smaller holes might work, although I suspect that one reason the EEMECKs are sized as they are is to give enough mechanical strength to the locks.

[St Enodoc]

Back in August last year we had a brief canter off in the direction of the reason why the Hawksworth pannier, 1664, wasn't working too well. I had thought that the gears were out of mesh, causing it to draw too much current for the decoder, so I took the body off yesterday to have a look. In fact the gears (Romford 40:1) were actually meshing OK, with a couple of thou clearance, but the teeth on the pinion were looking slightly worn. Nevertheless, I gave the motor bearing oil pads a good soaking, lubricated the axles and coupling rods and put some Hob-e-Lube 655 (other lubricants are available) on the gears. I ran it for a while tonight while I was doing something else and although there is still a fair bit of noise it ran smoothly and without stalling, so I think that lubrication was probably the main problem. If the gears pack up altogether in future I'll think about replacing them.

[St Enodoc]

Well, well, well. Tonight three more Slaters Toplight kits appeared on eBay - one of each type, very similar looking photos, and unless I'm mistaken the same seller.

 

I'll watch again and see what happens...

They went for around GBP 80 each in the end. Somewhat closer to sanity but still more than my maximum bid...

 

There's your cue acg5324...

[acg5324]

How much!

[M.I.B]

What kind of price would they be if available new £50?

 

Someone on RWWeb is involved in re-launching some of the Slaters range including Toplighhts.

 

How desperately do you need them?  £200 a kit desperate or "wait til the new generation of Slaters kits comes" desperate?

[M.I.B]

Dunno Phil. More research needed I think.

 

 

Worsley sides/Bachmann donor sounds promising.

 

All depends on your acceptable level of accuracy - as per the post about end tumble-homes.

 

Buy beware, as readers of NC have seen my efforts involving the bonding of these using Araldite went badly wrong in many of the 7 attempts.

 

So I am starting again using Evo-stick (other hallucinogens are also available)

Edited May 24, 2018 by M.I.B

[St Enodoc]

Someone on RWWeb is involved in re-launching some of the Slaters range including Toplighhts.

 

How desperately do you need them?  £200 a kit desperate or "wait til the new generation of Slaters kits comes" desperate?

Not that desperate - see post #1494 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94350-mid-cornwall-lines-1950s-western-region-in-00/page-60&do=findComment&comment=3169575.

 

I've got a few already, waiting to be built, so a few more to match would be nice. I'm happy to wait but if I can pick any up at a reasonable price (less than the last lot went for) then I'll take that opportunity.

[St Enodoc]

Will do, thanks.

 

Edit: Gauges ordered.

The gauges have arrived, so I might do some more work on the next single slip over the weekend. The vees are already in, at 16.5 mm, so I will try making the elbows at 16.2.

[St Enodoc]

On 25/05/2018 at 20:50, St Enodoc said:

The gauges have arrived, so I might do some more work on the next single slip over the weekend. The vees are already in, at 16.5 mm, so I will try making the elbows at 16.2.

A pleasant few hours at the desk this afternoon saw the single slip finished.

 

The new gauges, coupled with 1 mm-worth of feeler gauges, made the elbows slightly but significantly finer-looking than before. Things seemed to fit together better than before too, although I think this might be as much to do with this slip being a 1 in 5 rather than the 1 in 6 of the previous three. Once I have gapped and painted the slip I will be able to lay it (33A/36B points), along with 33B, 36A and HP C points, at the Down end of Porthmellyn Road. I will then lay a short length of temporary plain track to connect this group to the Loop, pending the construction of the three points and a diamond that will give access between Platform 3 and the Loop and both the Main and Branch lines. I will also be able to lay the two Chapel Sidings but these will need a small extra section of baseboard to be built first, to give a decent length to the sidings as they curve round in front of the Penzance loops.

Edited July 19, 2023 by St Enodoc
images restored

[St Enodoc]

The weather is still decently mild for the time of year, so after a nice walk along Berowra Creek this morning I gapped the slips and the three points then sprayed them brown. They're now ready to lay once I've stuck a bit more cork down.

[Barry O]

Mild??? Looks like you have a higher daytime temperature at the moment than we have in "warm" Leeds!

 

Umpired in shirt sleeve order yesterday for only the second time this season.

Baz

Baz

[St Enodoc]

Mild??? Looks like you have a higher daytime temperature at the moment than we have in "warm" Leeds!

 

Umpired in shirt sleeve order yesterday for only the second time this season.

Baz

Baz

It's all relative. Spending so much time in Melbourne makes me appreciate Sydney weather.

[sandwich station]

It's all relative. Spending so much time in Melbourne makes me appreciate Sydney weather.

 

It's also mild down here to.  

[St Enodoc]

It's also mild down here to.

Good! Hope it lasts. We could all do with a bit of rain though.

 

Edit: for the benefit of Northern Hemisphericals who don't know what we're talking about, daytime temperatures are still in the low 20s © even though winter starts officially on Friday. One of the (many) things I like about living down under is that if it feels a bit nippy I just imagine what the temperature would be in the reciprocal month in the Old Dart (i.e. May/November) and everything is all right again.

Edited May 28, 2018 by St Enodoc

[St Enodoc]

Yesterday evening I had a look at the templates for the next group of points - 27A, 29 and 27B - that form a sort of "three-quarter scissors" (sounds like a manouevre from my rugby-playing days) at the Down end of Porthmellyn Road Platform 3 and Loop. I've never built a combination of multiple points or crossings before, so this will be a new experience for me.

 

I extracted the template from the Templot design that Graeme in Queensland made for me last year. As I mentioned at the time, we were more interested in getting the rail positions right than in the timbering and when I looked at it again it didn't look quite right, particularly along the top track leading from Platform 3 to the main lines. The template showed this as having normal sleepers interlaced with the timbers for the diamond.

 

A quick browse of Smith's book convinced me that the group would look better with the whole of this area "blocked", i.e. with long timbers to support the straight track as well as the diamond, so I played around with the template until I had something that looked about right. This wasn't quite as easy as it sounds because the track from the Loop through the diamond is slightly curved to the left of the elbows to make it all fit.

 

The timbers marked in green are those that will form the tiebars. A contrasting colour is useful to identify these - guess how I know...

 

Tonight I had an hour or so to spare so I decided I would cut and glue the timbers in place. This was straightforward enough, starting from the elbows and working outwards. I use a glue stick to fix the timbers to the template as it is soluble in water, which means that it is very easy to remove once the point concerned is finished.

 

Once I had done this I realised that I can actually separate 27A points (bottom left) from the remaining "half-scissors", which will make life considerably simpler when building the group - not least because now it will, unlike the fish at Strangeways Hotel, no longer "fill up the plate and hang over the side" when I place it on my building board. I marked this separation point with a thick black marker.

 

The fun part comes next - cutting, filing and soldering the rails to turn this into a real piece of track.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by St Enodoc
images restored

[The Stationmaster]

Yesterday evening I had a look at the templates for the next group of points - 27A, 29 and 27B - that form a sort of "three-quarter scissors" (sounds like a manouevre from my rugby-playing days) at the Down end of Porthmellyn Road Platform 3 and Loop. I've never built a combination of multiple points or crossings before, so this will be a new experience for me.

 

20180528 001 PM 27A, 29, 27B points template.JPG

I extracted the template from the Templot design that Graeme in Queensland made for me last year. As I mentioned at the time, we were more interested in getting the rail positions right than in the timbering and when I looked at it again it didn't look quite right, particularly along the top track leading from Platform 3 to the main lines. The template showed this as having normal sleepers interlaced with the timbers for the diamond.

 

A quick browse of Smith's book convinced me that the group would look better with the whole of this area "blocked", i.e. with long timbers to support the straight track as well as the diamond, so I played around with the template until I had something that looked about right. This wasn't quite as easy as it sounds because the track from the Loop through the diamond is slightly curved to the left of the elbows to make it all fit.

 

The timbers marked in green are those that will form the tiebars. A contrasting colour is useful to identify these - guess how I know...

 

20180528 002 PM 27A, 29, 27B points timbers.JPG

Tonight I had an hour or so to spare so I decided I would cut and glue the timbers in place. This was straightforward enough, starting from the elbows and working outwards. I use a glue stick to fix the timbers to the template as it is soluble in water, which means that it is very easy to remove once the point concerned is finished.

 

Once I had done this I realised that I can actually separate 27A points (bottom left) from the remaining "half-scissors", which will make life considerably simpler when building the group - not least because now it will, unlike the fish at Strangeways Hotel, no longer "fill up the plate and hang over the side" when I place it on my building board. I marked this separation point with a thick black marker.

 

The fun part comes next - cutting, filing and soldering the rails to turn this into a real piece of track.

 

Good to see you have gone for the full length timbering as the original looked distinctly non-Western.

[bgman]

Blimey matey thats some pointwork !

 

Still, out with the gauges, slow and steady and I'm certain you will be able to make it work, as with all of your others. I made my very first double slip in 7mm some months ago using copper clad and took my time over it, you can imagine how pleased i was when I'd finished it and all worked well......then I stepped on it last week ! 

 

Anyway I look forward to seeing this when its finished and enjoy !

 

Grahame

[St Enodoc]

Good to see you have gone for the full length timbering as the original looked distinctly non-Western.

Thanks Mike. One of the features of this particular combination is that the timbers on the point on the right (27B) are perpendicular to the centre line of the diamond, but as you move to the left they start to skew a little as the diamond itself starts to curve. I don't think this will be noticeable in practice. The two points on the left (29 at the top, 27A at the bottom) both have equalised timbering of course.

Blimey matey thats some pointwork !

 

Still, out with the gauges, slow and steady and I'm certain you will be able to make it work, as with all of your others. I made my very first double slip in 7mm some months ago using copper clad and took my time over it, you can imagine how pleased i was when I'd finished it and all worked well......then I stepped on it last week ! 

 

Anyway I look forward to seeing this when its finished and enjoy !

 

Grahame

Thanks Grahame - yes, I did read your post about your slip. Serves you right for putting your train set on the carpet...

 

I think this should be reasonably straightforward, as I haven't got the complication of the slip rails to a) file up and b) get in the way of the elbow guards.

 

We shall see!

Edited May 28, 2018 by St Enodoc

[Chamby]

Yesterday evening I had a look at the templates for the next group of points - 27A, 29 and 27B - that form a sort of "three-quarter scissors" (sounds like a manouevre from my rugby-playing days) at the Down end of Porthmellyn Road Platform 3 and Loop. I've never built a combination of multiple points or crossings before, so this will be a new experience for me.

 

20180528 001 PM 27A, 29, 27B points template.JPG

I extracted the template from the Templot design that Graeme in Queensland made for me last year. As I mentioned at the time, we were more interested in getting the rail positions right than in the timbering and when I looked at it again it didn't look quite right, particularly along the top track leading from Platform 3 to the main lines. The template showed this as having normal sleepers interlaced with the timbers for the diamond.

 

A quick browse of Smith's book convinced me that the group would look better with the whole of this area "blocked", i.e. with long timbers to support the straight track as well as the diamond, so I played around with the template until I had something that looked about right. This wasn't quite as easy as it sounds because the track from the Loop through the diamond is slightly curved to the left of the elbows to make it all fit.

 

The timbers marked in green are those that will form the tiebars. A contrasting colour is useful to identify these - guess how I know...

 

20180528 002 PM 27A, 29, 27B points timbers.JPG

Tonight I had an hour or so to spare so I decided I would cut and glue the timbers in place. This was straightforward enough, starting from the elbows and working outwards. I use a glue stick to fix the timbers to the template as it is soluble in water, which means that it is very easy to remove once the point concerned is finished.

 

Once I had done this I realised that I can actually separate 27A points (bottom left) from the remaining "half-scissors", which will make life considerably simpler when building the group - not least because now it will, unlike the fish at Strangeways Hotel, no longer "fill up the plate and hang over the side" when I place it on my building board. I marked this separation point with a thick black marker.

 

The fun part comes next - cutting, filing and soldering the rails to turn this into a real piece of track.

. The use of 3 points and a diamond seems a bit of overkill, compared to the point and single slip arrangement that would achieve exactly the same thing? I just find myself wondering why you have gone down this route... Edited May 28, 2018 by Chamby

[St Enodoc]

. The use of 3 points and a diamond seems a bit of overkill, compared to the point and single slip arrangement that would achieve exactly the same thing? I just find myself wondering why you have gone down this route...

'cos that's how it was at Par!

 

To be fair, the prototype included two Y-points rather than the two left-hand points, so a slip wouldn't have been appropriate there. I couldn't replicate that in the space I have but wanted to keep the overall look of the thing.

Edited May 29, 2018 by St Enodoc