south_tyne Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 All, Just asking for a bit of advice with regard to modelling NER coal drops. From the digging (no hint of a pun intended!) I've done it appears that they were anything up to around 8 feet in height and sometimes less depending on location which is somewhat less than I had imagined. Now I am planning a small inglenook type shunting layout but would really like to incorporate some of these on one of the sidings, if possible, in order to reinforce the North East location. So as a quick question, with the limited space, would it be easier to: raise the height of the siding, say with an short incline above the baseboard level; or, lower the level a section of the baseboard in front of the coal drops for road access. Really I suppose it is also a question of what would be most prototypical. From the vast majority of photos and remaining examples really I suppose option 2 would be but I think I can remember examples of coal drops being accessed by an short incline too? If there is a prototype for the first then I think it might be easier! Any input or practical experience welcomed! Many thanks, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottiedog Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Have a look in Layout Topics. Stainsby - LNER late 1930s, and Stainsby Gate - my other LNER 1930s layout. Both feature ex NER Coal Drops. The former has a scratch built one which is reached by an incline, whilst the latter is on the flat and is serviced by a low level road. This one makes use of Hornby Scaledale products. You makes your choice and pays your money. I hope the photographs help you make a decision. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Three views of the coal drops at Beverley, June 1983, and then still in use. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gravy Train Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 very interesting Mick cheers for the photos Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Some interesting rail in use there ( the bits over the holes/ drops) - is there a special name for it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Have a look in Layout Topics. Stainsby - LNER late 1930s, and Stainsby Gate - my other LNER 1930s layout. Both feature ex NER Coal Drops. The former has a scratch built one which is reached by an incline, whilst the latter is on the flat and is serviced by a low level road. This one makes use of Hornby Scaledale products. You makes your choice and pays your money. I hope the photographs help you make a decision. Thanks for the reply! I will have a look at your layout topics. Having had a look through a number of books this afternoon it seems there was a fair mixture of both examples around. I'll have some further thought on the issue although I rather like the incline idea as added something a little different, something like the arrangement at Masham for instance. Cheers, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 BEVERLEY Coal Drops 1 June 1983.jpg BEVERLEY Coal Drops 2 June 1983.jpg BEVERLEY Coal Drops 1983.jpg Three views of the coal drops at Beverley, June 1983, and then still in use. Great shots there Mick, thanks very much for posting! The detail is great, it is rare you see photos of the deck like that, very interesting rail in use too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLT 0109 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 David, You comment that your suggestion no 1 might be easier; I have a raised coal drop on my layout and found it difficult to get the incline right, bearing in mind that your train has to be capable climbing it. It is the transitions from level to incline and back to level that need to be carefully designed and take up a lot of space (relatively). Also, the wagons will only stay in place on the level so there is quite a lot of "wasted" track in the siding. Sometimes level track with a road going down looks better on a model than the other - and remember that road vehicles can climb steep gradients so the road can be quite short, but be careful here also about the transitions. I also have a low scenic area on my layout which I achieved by attaching one of my baseboards to the underside of the frame instead of the top. As the frame is "2 x 2" I have a scale 12'6" drop. Just food for thought. Harold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Given limited space I would agree that lowering the base board would probably be easier eventually, even if setting it up might be more problematic to start with. NER coal drops came both ways, but it also depends where you want to put them on your layout. Goathland has its goods shed and coal drops next to each other. The siding finishes at the station building wall and is a great idea of how you can cram everything in. If you want a siding then the gradient will be a factor, as will the other things around it. Like Harold mentioned the gradients key is to be able to be worked, but long enough to be realistic. If your going for NER keep your layout simple. While they liked to put in most things to keep operation smooth the layouts made a lot of sence, but kept trackwork to a minium while allowing just about every movement possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Have a look at Ernie's views of Hexham here:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/sets/72157626883846203/ The track to the drops seems to have been almost level; the ground around them seems to have been dug away. Don't make the drop too extreme- coal doesn't take too well to being dropped from a height, and users used to complain if there was a lot of fine stuff in the sacks, as it was only good for 'banking up' the fire at night. I remember we used to have a couple of old buckets that small coal and dust was put into, specifically for this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Mine based on a Skaledale model which has been stretched. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/1989-helensdale-a-lner-layout/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Eastern Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Hi David, It might be worth having a look at this previous thread about NER Coal Drops -http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52868-ner-coal-drops/?hl=%2Bner+%2Bcoal+%2Bdrops It shows some drops which only have a slight incline just right if you don't have much space. Hope this helps. Regards Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Worth looking at the reconstructed Beamish coal drops as well (photo near the bottom of the page. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Taylor Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) If you are thinking about scratchbuilding, my examination of photos and remains of central division drops gives some details that might be of use. Rail was conventional bullhead mounted in 4-bolt NER chairs (Exactoscale/C+L midland would do) bolted to 14" square profile (nominal dimension) timber waybeams. The chairs were outside keyed along the way beams for some reason. Way beams were supported by stone work forming walls and partitions 20" thick. The edges of the partitions are in dressed stone 1'-0" tall, with a face sloping back 1" for every 12" of height. The cells themselves are 10'-0" wide. On my prototype example, I have through examination of type drawings of other utility structures determined that the decking was most likely supported by 4"x4" intermediate crossbeams (probably recess jointed into the outer face beams -9"x4") and was formed from 11"x3" planks. laid flush with the way beams. Its most likely that the chairs were spaced at 2'0" intervals with iron/steel plates between them protecting/reinforcing the waybeam top against the falling coal and moisture collecting dust. This is based on cells on the former Stockton & Darlington Rly or NER Central Division route from Darlington to Barnard Castle and on into the Stainmore route. As well as the 6"x24" steel plate between the chairs on top of the beams there were also tie bars between the way beams at each end and one in the middle, as well as another vertical bashplate approx 99" long on the inner face of each beam. Waybeams span two cells each. As far as wingwall/abutments go, rough dressed local stone with caps 18" deep x 5" high by varying length. Have a look on the cumbrian railways website for pictures of Gaisgill drops. This was a set with an approach slope, Broomielaw (my prototype) was a partial slope due to the track gradient, and Appleby and Lartington were at running line height working with the contour of the surrounding ground. Btw - the covered lime cells would only be in areas requiring lime to be brought in, so country with limestone and/or kilns close by would not have them. Personally if you aren't following a prototype I'd design drops below running rail height in order ot make track laying uniform and much easier. Ramps will need transitions and a lot of room. A set of drops like those on the Esk Valley line that is adjacent to a convenient under bridge would be easiest. Steve Edited April 7, 2015 by Steve Taylor 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Just a quick reply, thanks to each and every one of you for your informative responses and prototype examples to mull over. The information is definitely helping me to assess the best options. I will try to do some more considered individual responses when I get a free 10 minutes but thank you once again in the meantime! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 David, You comment that your suggestion no 1 might be easier; I have a raised coal drop on my layout and found it difficult to get the incline right, bearing in mind that your train has to be capable climbing it. It is the transitions from level to incline and back to level that need to be carefully designed and take up a lot of space (relatively). Also, the wagons will only stay in place on the level so there is quite a lot of "wasted" track in the siding. Sometimes level track with a road going down looks better on a model than the other - and remember that road vehicles can climb steep gradients so the road can be quite short, but be careful here also about the transitions. I also have a low scenic area on my layout which I achieved by attaching one of my baseboards to the underside of the frame instead of the top. As the frame is "2 x 2" I have a scale 12'6" drop. Just food for thought. Harold. Hi Harold, Thanks for the heads up. To be honest it is something I have wondered about but not really considered. I think the crucial thing might be that the wasted space aspect might be critical on such a small layout. I might do some mock-ups but the need to raise the level to a scale 8' or so could result in too much siding space being lost in, say a 3' length. Given limited space I would agree that lowering the base board would probably be easier eventually, even if setting it up might be more problematic to start with. NER coal drops came both ways, but it also depends where you want to put them on your layout. Goathland has its goods shed and coal drops next to each other. The siding finishes at the station building wall and is a great idea of how you can cram everything in. If you want a siding then the gradient will be a factor, as will the other things around it. Like Harold mentioned the gradients key is to be able to be worked, but long enough to be realistic. If your going for NER keep your layout simple. While they liked to put in most things to keep operation smooth the layouts made a lot of sence, but kept trackwork to a minium while allowing just about every movement possible. Thanks for that. Goathland does spring to mind as an example immediately doesn't it. My inspiration as always is from the Barton, Forcett and Butterknowle goods branches - I just love the atmosphere of those lines which hung on until the 1950s and 1960s. Have a look at Ernie's views of Hexham here:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/sets/72157626883846203/ The track to the drops seems to have been almost level; the ground around them seems to have been dug away. Don't make the drop too extreme- coal doesn't take too well to being dropped from a height, and users used to complain if there was a lot of fine stuff in the sacks, as it was only good for 'banking up' the fire at night. I remember we used to have a couple of old buckets that small coal and dust was put into, specifically for this. Great shot - thanks for the link! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Hi David, It might be worth having a look at this previous thread about NER Coal Drops -http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52868-ner-coal-drops/?hl=%2Bner+%2Bcoal+%2Bdrops It shows some drops which only have a slight incline just right if you don't have much space. Hope this helps. Regards Chris Thanks Chris I hadn't uncovered that one, it is very useful! Worth looking at the reconstructed Beamish coal drops as well (photo near the bottom of the page. Again thanks. Funnily enough I am sitting about 1 mile from the site of West Boldon depot as I type this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Thanks for that. Goathland does spring to mind as an example immediately doesn't it. My inspiration as always is from the Barton, Forcett and Butterknowle goods branches - I just love the atmosphere of those lines which hung on until the 1950s and 1960s. You could always model the Hagaleeses Branch under Cockfield fell viaduct for the Stainmore line. That would be an impressive rail over bridge for the end of your scenic section!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 You could always model the Hagaleeses Branch under Cockfield fell viaduct for the Stainmore line. That would be an impressive rail over bridge for the end of your scenic section!! Oh how I would love that, I would have to extend that 5' by 15" baseboard a bit mind... If only...!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_tyne Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 If you are thinking about scratchbuilding, my examination of photos and remains of central division drops gives some details that might be of use. Rail was conventional bullhead mounted in small footprint chairs (Exactoscale L1 would do) bolted to 14" square profile (nominal dimension) timber waybeams. The chairs were outside keyed along the way beams for some reason. Way beams were supported by stone work forming walls and partitions 20" thick. The edges of the partitions are in dressed stone 1'-0" tall, with a face sloping back 1" for every 12" of height. The cells themselves are 10'-0" wide. On my prototype example, I have through examination of type drawings of other utility structures determined that the decking was most likely supported by 4"x4" intermediate crossbeams (probably recess jointed into the outer face beam -10"x4") and was formed from 9"x3" planks. laid flush with the way beams. Its most likely that the chairs were spaced at 2'0" intervals with iron/steel plates between them protecting/reinforcing the waybeam top against the falling coal and moisture collecting dust. This is based on cells on the former Stockton & Darlington Rly or NER Central Division route from Darlington to Barnard Castle and on into the Stainmore route. Have a look on the cumbrian railways website for pictures of Gaisgill drops. This was a set with an approach slope, Broomielaw (my prototype) was a partial slope due to the track gradient, and Appleby and Lartington were at running line height working with the contour of the surrounding ground. Btw - the covered lime cells would only be in areas requiring lime to be brought in, so country with limestone and/or kilns close by would not have them. Personally if you aren't following a prototype I'd design drops below running rail height in order ot make track laying uniform and much easier. Ramps will need transitions and a lot of room. A set of drops like those on the Esk Valley line that is adjacent to a convenient under bridge would be easiest. Steve Hi Steve, Thanks for this really informative and useful reply and apologies for taking so long to respond! I am still dwelling on the answer but the information regarding the cells on the Stainmore route and associated lines is very useful. By the looks of your work, your depiction of Broomielaw is going to be a stunner, I cannot wait to see more! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shildonboy Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 check out the Locomotion Museum in Shildon - there are two examples of coal drops in Situ. I have attached pictures of what are claimed to be the oldest drops in the world - these were used transfer coal from the collieries to other trucks for distribution. Originally built for use by the Stockton and Darlington Railway. The other set are in the old goods yard and were used to deliver coal to Dunns Coal Merchants after the local collieries were closed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Taylor Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) South Tyne , are you modelling a "location" local to you? If northern division is your thing then yes look at Ernie's pics of Hexham. Also look for Morpeth on Flickr. The Annfield Plain set (?) at Beamish would fall into this category too and should supply a lot of info about rail and decking choices. If you are happy with a central division style then drop me a pm and I'll have a go at extracting pdfs from the turbo cad files to give you plan, elevation and x-sections for enoguh detail to repeat to the size of installation you want. I've just come back from visiting the folks back up in the old country and took the oportunity to walk off tea with a couple of walks (tape measure, camera and notebook at the ready). I've corrected some of the details in my earlier post btw and thank you for the kind words: Broomielaw was meant to be a quick and brutal intro to P4 and has expanded into a major research exercise - there was so little there that what was there had to be as right as possible as there's little else to mask a void or shortcut. Edited April 7, 2015 by Steve Taylor 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackboy Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 check out the Locomotion Museum in Shildon - there are two examples of coal drops in Situ. I have attached pictures of what are claimed to be the oldest drops in the world - these were used transfer coal from the collieries to other trucks for distribution. Originally built for use by the Stockton and Darlington Railway. The other set are in the old goods yard and were used to deliver coal to Dunn Coal Merchants after the local collieries were closed I am trying to find out about the early use of the Black boy line. I suspect the Black boy fed onto timber coal drops probably at the current site. I am trying to produce a timeline from about 1800 to the present. I am trying to model in N gauge Cheapside 1850, Coal drops functioning, and some rope hauled Incline. The Black boy Incline track was probably available well beyond 1900. The last recorded use that I know of was as a diversion in 1880. Any help suggestions would be appreciated, I am currently building coal trucks and dandy cart out of tinplate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutford Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) Yes, I KNOW this thread is two years old, but seemed more sensible to post as a reply than to start a new one about much the same thing! I'm planning a model of Ripon/Melmerby/Masham, and am having some issues with the coal drops. Masham is simple - there is a nice pic below, and lots of pics of the excellent model by Peter White can be found on the net which (where I am able to check it) appears brilliantly accurate. Much more than mine will be for sure! More problematic are Ripon and Melmerby. I have one pic of Ripon coal drops (below), but it's not clear (to me anyway!) whether there were a second set of drops on the other side of the yard, or any more detail. And of Melmerby, all I have is one pic of a few bits of wall years after closure. If anybody out there has any photos of Ripon or Melmerby goods yards or coal drops would be very grateful - not the stations, those I do have plenty of. Many thanks in (hopeful) advance! Edited October 24, 2017 by Nutford Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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