Simon Moore Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 50 passengers injured after two trains collide in Switzerland http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2961210/Several-passengers-injured-two-trains-collide-Switzerland.html@MailOnline Sounds rather nasty. A high speed train hits a suburban train after apparently jumping a red light. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Moore Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 I was thinking the same about the 18 year old. Fingers crossed everyone is minor injured & no one suffers as a result. The re460 looks a mess I hope the driver is ok, the cabs a mess. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted February 20, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2015 Other media such as Neue Zürcher Zeitung mention six people to have been injured, including the driver of the InterRegio train involved. There does not seem to be any indication as to the cause at this time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 20, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2015 Other media such as Neue Zürcher Zeitung mention six people to have been injured, including the driver of the InterRegio train involved. There does not seem to be any indication as to the cause at this time. Thanks Dom, the cause might or might not have been established by now but it obviously hasn't yet been made public - and might not be for a while but I'm sure you will keep us updated Dom. As for the British press - well that's as typical of those idiots as we usually find on matters connected with railways!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 The train Jumped a red light! A car driver makes a decision to Jump a Red light! It is calculated risk that nothing else is seen to be coming or will hit their car, shame the press think that Train Drivers do this deliberately like most of the incidents on roads! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamperman36 Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I thought european railways use similar safety systems to ours such as ATP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Pity about the logo on the side of the lok - RekaRail ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted February 20, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2015 NZZ now report that both trains were crewed by a senior driver and an apprentice each, though the updated article doesn't make any mention of who was driving at the time. In any case, I suppose the best thing to do for interested observers like us (as always) is to first let the investigators do their work and discuss their findings. (Just saying this because I remember how after the Santiago de Compostela disaster, it had been argued in the Spanish press that there had been reason to believe the driver was to be scapegoated for failures not within his responsibility.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivebunny Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 The re460 looks a mess I hope the driver is ok, the cabs a mess.Simon Looks like it's been cut away by the fire service, hence the severe damage. It's presumably hit a gantry or stanchion on its way into the dirt. There's an interesting photo on French news site 20 Minutes which makes it pretty clear what happened, whilst obviously not allowing us to conclude anything about the how or why. JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted February 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2015 NZZ have updated the article yet again, quoting a SBB spokesman as saying that – in reference to both trains having a team of a fully trained driver and an apprentice on board – regulations specify that apprentices may only ride along until passing specific tests (which I think is not surprising) and that the two apprentices involved have been working in different occupations earlier and were now retraining to become railwaymen. They also say that the suburban train (which must have been a S 5 line service) had terminated and reversed at Rafz as per the timetable, with SBB refusing to participate in speculation as to whether this may have caused the ZUB train protection system to malfunction. To provide some background: Switzerland basically uses two complementary train protection systems, which are the older Integra-Signum system utilising an array of trackside and onboard magnets and resonance circuits, and the newer ZUB 121 system based on trackside balises and loop conductors, the latter of which aren't unlike the trackside circuits of the German LZB cab signalling. While Integra-Signum provides only spot checks at distant and main signals, ZUB 121 is a hybrid system which can provide both spot checks and sectional monitoring to ensure braking sequences and temporary speed thresholds while approaching signals showing a Stop or Restricted aspect are observed. As planned or already commenced in most other European countries, the unified ETCS system has been introduced in Switzerland as well and until 2005 all revenue motive power had already been upgraded for ETCS compatibility. National planning specifies that after 2017, all Swiss and foreign motive power outfitted for ETCS will be able to operate in Switzerland (provided all other technical preconditions are met), though older Swiss stock is granted a transitional period to 2025 to be fully outfitted for ETCS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2015 Looks like it's been cut away by the fire service, hence the severe damage. It's presumably hit a gantry or stanchion on its way into the dirt. There's an interesting photo on French news site 20 Minutes which makes it pretty clear what happened, whilst obviously not allowing us to conclude anything about the how or why. JB It doesn't really tell us anything apart from the fact that there would appear to have been a collision which seriously derailed one of the trains - the one moving at the higher speed. the position of the points might or might not be relevant as it depends entirely on when and how they came to be in that position and they might well be trailable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted February 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2015 Mike, when you mention trailable points, would that be those variants such as spring points where you may approach from the diverging end and the train resets the blades? As for Rafz Station, Google Maps tells me the line outside the northeastern approach is single-tracked, then forks into two tracks alongside a central island platform, with additional loops to either side of the platform tracks. Those along Bahnhofstrasse to the northwest look like freight/loading loops, while the loop to the southeast appears to be a passing loop only. The platform tracks continue as a double-tracked line past the southwestern approach but there is a pair of crossovers (one left-to-right, one right-to-left when looking "down" towards Zürich) connecting both tracks some distance (about 100 metres, I'd say) behind the road bridge spanning the street called Im Hard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivebunny Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 It doesn't really tell us anything apart from the fact that there would appear to have been a collision which seriously derailed one of the trains - the one moving at the higher speed. the position of the points might or might not be relevant as it depends entirely on when and how they came to be in that position and they might well be trailable. Does it not tell us quite clearly that both trains were indeed engaged onto the points at the same time as has been speculated? I don't recall saying anything about the direction of the points telling us anything - they could have moved during the collision due to forces involved, or simply because they were programmed to so, or again because the signaller became aware of an unexpected situation and attempted to avoid damage to the infrastructure. JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2015 jivebunny, on 21 Feb 2015 - 13:35, said: Does it not tell us quite clearly that both trains were indeed engaged onto the points at the same time as has been speculated? It shows the point of collision, but tells us nothing about which train was not authorised to be there, nor why that train failed to obey signals, for which there are multiple potential reasons, human failure being only one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted February 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2015 Reading through the last update of the NZZ article again, the description and image captions indicate that the accident actually happened at the down end of Rafz Station towards Schaffhausen where the single-tracked line splits into multiple station routes and crosses Rüdlingerstrasse across a bridge. From other sources, I gather that the services involved were IR 2858 (running late) and S 18014, both bound for Schaffhausen and with the suburban service scheduled to be passed by the IR at Rafz. The collision must therefore have happened on the points at the Schaffhausen end where the line becomes single-tracked and crosses Rüdlingerstrasse on a bridge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivebunny Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 It shows the point of collision, but tells us nothing about which train was not authorised to be there, nor why that train failed to obey signals Which is precisely what I said when posting the photograph..... There's an interesting photo on French news site 20 Minutes which makes it pretty clear what happened, whilst obviously not allowing us to conclude anything about the how or why. JB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 21, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2015 Mike, when you mention trailable points, would that be those variants such as spring points where you may approach from the diverging end and the train resets the blades? DB used to use them almost universally Dom - they are not 'spring points' as such as the mechanism uses a sort of over centre cam arrangement and I'm fairly sure that once trailed the points stay that way, they don't spring back to where they were. Incidentally it is double line from Rafz towards Schaffhausen becoming single south of Huntwangen Does it not tell us quite clearly that both trains were indeed engaged onto the points at the same time as has been speculated? I don't recall saying anything about the direction of the points telling us anything - they could have moved during the collision due to forces involved, or simply because they were programmed to so, or again because the signaller became aware of an unexpected situation and attempted to avoid damage to the infrastructure. JB It is fairly obvious that if the trains collided they were going to be somewhere near pointwork but beyond that we don't know exactly where they collided and that picture might or might not tell us that - for example the train on the right appears to be upright and not derailed so it might not be at the site of the collision but could have been moved. Interestingly too there are no marks of a collision on the what we can see of the derailed vehicles so we really don't know what the mechanism of collision was or where it occurred. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 so we really don't know what the mechanism of collision was or where it occurred. True, but everything seen so far is consistent with the original witness statement! An 18-year-old passenger on the RER train told local media that he thought his train, which had just left Ratz in the direction of Schaffhausen had 'passed through a red light'. He added: 'A fast train from Zurich came up behind us and brushed against the side of our RER. 'The Intercity service derailed.' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted February 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2015 An article published in Basler Zeitung yesterday quotes the head of the Swiss Locomotive Engineer's Union as saying that SBB had resorted to placing signals to the right side of the tracks in numerous locations during technical updates carried out in the past few years. He is further quoted to have said that in his opinion, this increases the risk of drivers mistakingly following signals actually applying to the parallel track. The article also mentions Rafz Station to have been rebuilt in 2011 and that there, one exit signal had indeed been placed to the right rather than the left, though it does not say whether this signal could have been of relevance for the recent accident. It also quotes the "Schweiz am Sonntag" paper as saying that no ZUB distant balises, which could have enforced a speed restriction for starting trains, had been installed at Rafz. That paper is further quoted as saying such balises were commonly installed at stations where services terminate and reverse direction – which but Rafz actually is. I suppose the actual cause, or combination of causes, still remains to be determined. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted February 23, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2015 Of course: http://www.nzz.ch/zuerich/region/unfall-zug-rafz-1.18487271 http://bazonline.ch/zuerich/region/LokfuehrerPraesident-kritisiert-nach-Zugunglueck-die-SBB/story/25618998 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NGT6 1315 Posted February 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 28, 2015 NZZ have provided a couple of updates regarding the investigations. So far, it could be determined that the suburban service which ran the red signal had reached a speed of 59 kph at the time of collision with the passing InterRegio, though the root cause of why the suburban had started in the first place seems to be unclear yet. SBB are also quoted as stating that the train had been too fast for the penalty brake application triggered by passing the red signal to prevent the collision. As an immediate measure, the railway has posted a notice to observe a 40 kph speed limit until passing the relevant exit signal after a change of direction. The article also states that SBB appear to have developed an interim safety application reminding drivers specifically of red signals at calling points. The senior driver aboard the InterRegio had, due to his injuries, been put into an induced medical coma for several days but has returned to consciousness on Thursday. http://www.nzz.ch/zuerich/unfall-rafz-1.18491797 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Has any more information about this event emerged in the last month or so? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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