APOLLO Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 And if the electric stock was of Pacer standard and the diesel a comfy new thing? I just simply cannot grasp how anyone could even think that. If the electric stock was a "swish new" 4 wheeled bus hurtling down the WCML at 100 miles per hour I would walk !!!!!!!!!! Grasp the fact that we are in the 21st century. Oil won't last forever, and I doubt new steam locos will be built just for the scenic S&C. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted March 7, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2015 If the electric stock was a "swish new" 4 wheeled bus hurtling down the WCML at 100 miles per hour I would walk !!!!!!!!!! Grasp the fact that we are in the 21st century. Oil won't last forever, and I doubt new steam locos will be built just for the scenic S&C. If there's a genuine chance of oil running out, i.e. the only choice we've physically got is electric or nothing, then it's the lesser of two evils. We're not there yet and I rather doubt we're as close to being there as some of the alarmists would have us believe. I grasp the fact that we're in the 21st century perfectly well thank you. That does not mean that I should like everything about it, and that everything in it is the way it has to be and I'm not remotely persuaded that things are either the only the way they possibly could be, or the best balance to overall contribute towards the best possible world to live in. Unfortunately lots of people seem to rather blindly assume that that's the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm81 Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 A clear decision on Newcastle - Carlisle, which is tier 3, would help decide the future of our local rolling stock. If it's going to happen we need stop gap dmu's again, if not then new dmu's could be built. Though I bet a clear decision isn't forthcoming. So they may aswell modify the pacers to meet the disabled requirements, solve the draughty doors, stick some comfy seats in and it's job done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Without straying into forbidden topic creep, there are many (more) economic and socio-political changes I fear happening to and impacting on this country which would alter its appearance for the worse, that go far beyond the lineside, and make a few electrification masts seem very insignificant indeed. These will probably encroach into every area of society and day to day activities. As I am powerless to stop them, I can take slim comfort from the fact that each generation has the right to leave its mark on the landscape. And maybe some positive influences will still be in play after I've turned up my toes, in the world that successive generations will inherit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted March 7, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2015 Without straying into forbidden topic creep, there are many (more) economic and socio-political changes I fear happening to and impacting on this country which would alter its appearance for the worse, that go far beyond the lineside, and make a few electrification masts seem very insignificant indeed.At the risk of carrying on with this (some things I can't help myself) I think that there are a lot of unrelated things that look very insignificant individually but all add up to something rather more significant. This works for both good and bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted March 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2015 Having earlier referenced page 42 of the report where they discuss alternatives to electrification, it seems a pity they don't mention the Parry People Mover technology which might be suitable for some of the lines in Tier 3, e.g. the Barton on Humber line. In other words, potentially an electric train (in one of the versions) without overhead wires. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesysmith Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 When going on about the fuel consumption of diesel engines, you have to remember that the best engines are the heavy, cathedral engines used in marine environment. The best is the RT-flex96c by wartsila-sulser. This is described as 50% efficient, that is 50% of the energy of the fuel is converted into power. The fuel consumption is 171g/kwh for this engine, where as the best in rail terms is the engine in the class 60 has 185g/kwh. With diesel engines the parasitic losses decrease as the engine get larger, so the high speed engines used in DMUs and such will have worse fuel consumption. IIRC the 156 was quoted in BR papers when delivered as doing 6.6mpg. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2015 When talking about aesthetics and the softer side of things (ie. not just economics and efficiency) then surely clean emissions should be considered. I love steam engines but air quality in urban and industrial areas in the steam era would be completely unacceptable today. Whilst diesel engine emissions are much less visible than for steam they still emit a wide range of harmful pollutants which are responsible for a large number of deaths and illnesses. Clearly trains are not the only emitter of harmful pollutants, equally they are not an insignificant one and sometimes in winter when I see certain engines idling the exhaust looks horrendous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesperus Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Battery technology is coming on leaps and bounds, I wouldn't have thought it would be too long before short branch lines like Stourbridge and St Ives will have battery units. It can't be too long before all the secondary lines get wired. My local line though the Welsh Marches still looks great with its semaphore signals but I accept that they won't be here forever either. Hundreds of gallons of diesel must be used up the line each day with hourly 175's and plenty of freight. I enjoy watching it but I realise that it can't continue indefinitely. I'm not sure we'll ever see some of the minor lines wired, the central wales line sees only a handful of 153's a day and without a massive shift from road to rail it just wouldn't be worth doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I doubt the S&C will be electrified. I have travelled over it many times, first in 1964 behind a Clan, on the stopping train from Hellifield to Carlisle, return was a Bradford bound train headed by a Britannia. In August 1967 I was on one of the last Birmingham - Glasgow scheduled Saturday trains hauled by Jubilee 46662 Alberta. Later travelled on the Thames Clyde Express & Waverley both Peak hauled, though only from Skipton to Carlisle - using the excellent value (for a school kid)l North West rover ticket. Those wonderful days have gone, bar enthusiasts specials. Electrify the lot, and ASAP I say. And NO, Mr Adrain Shooter etc, (google him) - we up north don't want your refurbished tatty ex London Tube trains - Stick em !!!! WE want Brand New trains, like the Trans Pennine 350's - wonderful new, modern trains. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted March 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2015 There was a piece in Rail a few issues ago which included an interview with the Chair of the friends of the S&C - he didnt see any problem with electrification, and indeed saw it as another sign of the faith put in the route to ensure its future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted March 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2015 Entirely off-topic but I was expecting a pile of "disagrees" and it's only due to not getting a load I've noticed that that button has gone. When did that happen? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted March 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2015 Battery technology is coming on leaps and bounds, I wouldn't have thought it would be too long before short branch lines like Stourbridge and St Ives will have battery units. I'm not sure that the St Ives branch will go to battery power. The 28 return journeys on it each week day add to to nearly 240 miles. Given the gradients and numbers of passengers on the trains there is a need for significant power. What goes in favour of batteries here would be the low speeds on the branch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bri.s Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Interesting to see Sheffield to Leeds via Barnsley in there in tier1 I wonder if that's why they want to use old underground stock around here untill the wires go up Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted March 8, 2015 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2015 I'm not sure that the St Ives branch will go to battery power. The 28 return journeys on it each week day add to to nearly 240 miles. Given the gradients and numbers of passengers on the trains there is a need for significant power. What goes in favour of batteries here would be the low speeds on the branch. With the Stourbridge branch being operated by the Parry People Movers you could say that it is already on battery power only a mechanical one rather than an eectrical one. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Interesting to see Sheffield to Leeds via Barnsley in there in tier1 I wonder if that's why they want to use old underground stock around here untill the wires go up Brian Hmmmm..... Depends who 'they' is, doesn't it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted March 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2015 I'm not sure that the St Ives branch will go to battery power. The 28 return journeys on it each week day add to to nearly 240 miles. Given the gradients and numbers of passengers on the trains there is a need for significant power. What goes in favour of batteries here would be the low speeds on the branch.If battery power ever becomes a viable replacement for every road vehicle (we hear about cars, not so much about long distance HGVs driving hilly routes) it should be possible to manage rail services like this too (and most others), but it's too far off, if it'll ever happen, to plan for. I think it should be a long-term goal to aim for though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bri.s Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Hmmmm..... Depends who 'they' is, doesn't it! Whoever suggested it ,hopefully it'll be better than riding on pacers though Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Since the theoretical maximum power density of the current battery technology used for transport is about a tenth of that of diesel, expect to see battery tenders added to any battery powered locos if used as direct replacement for Diesel. Your battery 156 will be covering about 0.6 miles per gallon of batteries - and that is the theoretical maximum, practical implementation will not get anywhere near that far and the batteries will probably weigh a good deal more too. Perhaps we might see some triple or quadruple distributed power freight locos using the weight of the batteries for extra ballast! Charging will still have to be done under the wires somewhere I guess, and the power consumed during cahrging will be in the order of a hundred megawatts making for some fat distribution and a probable requirement to up the voltage to 50KV or more. Bare in mind a hundred megawatts is nearly half the output from a Magnox power station! The infrastructure required for charging is probably not much different from full electrification. Going for 99% electrification is probably pointless - might as well go 100% and eliminate the small class of non electrics. There are countries already with 100% electrification that are looking to standardise on a single electrification type for economic reasons. Interim systems should be just that and make do with what is available as far as possible. The 1955 modernisation plan interim system of new diesels has resulted in a new system that has been a lot more than just interim. With calls for the second generation 'interim' DMUs to be replaced it has got a bit out of hand. Steam should have been replaced with electric in the '30s, and the failure to achieve it by 1948 should have just seen the life extension of existing steam and not investment in new steam and diesel. There is no way that the S&C can be the third line to Scotland without electrification, but that is what it can be. Hard to see who would want to run a third service to Scotland (via Midland main line, S&C and Waverley) other than another Virgin-led consortium I suppose but we can but hope... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 9, 2015 No-one is suggesting that current battery technology is a viable option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 9, 2015 I think Suzie hit the nail on the head in that diesels should have been a transitional technology but unfortunately became a permanent fixture. At least the UK does have quite an ambitious electrification program moving forward, maybe not as ambitious as we'd like but nevertheless it is a massive step forward. For those lines where electrification will be hard to justify then it is possible that internal combustion engines may remain the best solution for the foreseeable future (I do see a lot of potential for future battery development) but I believe this should be viewed as the exception in terms of ambition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 9, 2015 Watch it with the "we" please! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.hill64 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Watch it with the "we" please! What's not to like? Electric trains are more reliable, more energy efficient, cheaper to buy, cheaper to operate, cheaper to maintain, quieter and - subject to how the power is generated - less polluting. I agree that the knitting is not attractive but it's relatively difficult to spot from a distance. I remember the publicity material that BR put out with the WCML electrification through the Lune Gorge. the message was about the increased capacity of the line but you would find it hard to spot the difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 There is no way that the S&C can be the third line to Scotland without electrification, but that is what it can be. Hard to see who would want to run a third service to Scotland (via Midland main line, S&C and Waverley) other than another Virgin-led consortium I suppose but we can but hope... Thinking about it, a third electrified line to Scotland may well be needed if / when HS2 is built. The proposed HS2 line will join the WCML at Bamfurlong. just south of Wigan. Its already 4 track from there to Wigan North Western, (6 tracks from Platt Bridge just north of Bamfurlong to Wigan - all are already electrified). There is a problem for the 8 or so miles that are two track only North from Wigan NW to Standish & Coppull. The 4 or so miles from Standish to Coppull was originally 4 tracks, but was cut to two several years ago. Easily reinstated this bit. The 4 miles from Wigan to Standish could be 4 tracked (I live alongside it) - one or two bridges where built for 4 tracks t(that never happened) many years ago. Or the Whelley loop around Wigan could be reinstated, at a cost. This ran from Platt Bridge to Standish Jcn. Most if not all the route is now a footpath though most bridges and the Douglas viaduct are gone. Anyway, this gives us 4 tracks from HS2 to Preston, and that's where the real problem begins - 2 tracks all the way from Preston to Carlisle. Simple and cheapest option to increase capacity if needed would be to electrify Preston (Farington Jcn) - Blackburn - Hellifield - Carlisle. Many years into the future all this. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 9, 2015 What's not to like? Electric trains are more reliable, more energy efficient, cheaper to buy, cheaper to operate, cheaper to maintain, quieter and - subject to how the power is generated - less polluting. I agree that the knitting is not attractive but it's relatively difficult to spot from a distance. I remember the publicity material that BR put out with the WCML electrification through the Lune Gorge. the message was about the increased capacity of the line but you would find it hard to spot the difference. Those benefits aren't things I find particularly significant, things looking bad is (and I find the travelling experience worse, with the posts flicking past the windows if it's moving at speed, to the point of finding turning off an electrified line rather a relief). I disagree that it's hard to spot the difference, even from a distance. Like I said earlier it's about personal priroties about the sort of world we want to live in, one full of electrified railways isn't one I really want to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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