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14.2 and 13.5mm gauges


Anglian
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Does anybody here have experience of either or both? Would you care to comment of the relative merits of either approach? I read variously that 14.2 is actually an equivalent of EM in 4mm and not P4 – is this really the case? If working in 13.5mm are there less wheel sets/kits etc or is that not really a problem since all can be adapted?

 

If working in 14.2mm is the minimum radius extremely generous?

 

Thank you in advance.

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 I read variously that 14.2 is actually an equivalent of EM in 4mm and not P4 – is this really the case?

 

Thank you in advance.

More the other way around 3mm times 4.5 = 13.5mm hence 13.5 is the direct equivalent of EM.

3mm times 4.75 = 14.25 then take off the surplus half inch equivalent you get 14.2, hence 14.2 is the direct equivalent of P4 so far as gauge is concerned.

I don't know about wheel standards.

Regards

Keith

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Does anyone model in the 13.5mm gauge? I know there was one chap who was heavily into it years ago and thus got the standards recognised by the 3mm Society but I never heard of anyone else taking it up. 14.2mm is perfectly workable with no need for exceptionally large radius curves. Just looking at the standards the two are pretty much the same apart from the difference in gauge so minimum radius is going to be much the same for both. 

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Does anyone model in the 13.5mm gauge? I know there was one chap who was heavily into it years ago and thus got the standards recognised by the 3mm Society ....

 

Sounds like a one-man gauge. I've never seen anything in 13.5mm gauge.

 

14.2 always looked much more in proportion.

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I seem to remember a few people working to 13.5 when TT3 first appeared, after all there was nothing better than EM (or EMF) in 4mm scale then. 

 

I suspect that it was the arrival of P4 as a workable scale/gauge combination in 4mm scale that encouraged migration to 14 or 14.2 in 3mm scale and that was a good decade later.

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George Micheson is/was the great exponent of 13.5mm gauge. Mainly a loco builder he maintained that with 3mm wheel standards it was difficult to accommodate outside valve gear with 14.2mm gauge. This is despite the fact that some modellers have built outside valve gear locos in the wider gauge. Modelling to 14.2mm gauge is, in my view much more preferable than using 12mm gauge which was the old TT standard. This gauge as is often the way with British modelling is derived from the European standard of 1:120 which, unsurprisingly, produces the scale equivalent of standard gauge. British 3mm scale is 1:101.6 and 12mm gauge equates to 4' gauge. Shades of the old HO/OO conundrum . . .

Whilst 14.2 track may look ok I'm afraid that 3mm wheel standards haven't quite kept up and could hardly be described as 'fine scale'. Back in the 1970s Stewart Hine produced some workable standards for Scale 3 which were published in Model Railways magazine but, sadly, nobody has subsequently taken up the challenge.

 

David

 

Edited to correct British 3mm scale ratio. Wasn't paying attention to what I had written!

Edited by DavidLong
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Somebody else did take it up then, as George wasn't the one I was thinking of. He was working to 14.2mm gauge at the time I was a member of the 3mm Society. 

I find it a shame that no one from 3mm publicity has picked up on this topic, or any topic for that matter concerning 3mm. They are missing a wonderful opportunity to promote the scale through this medium.

 

From comments so far to this topic the knowledge of what 3mm is about and just how much the scale has to offer is lamentable.

 

The 3mm Society offer rail, chairs, point kits and even flexitrack base in both 4.2 and 13.5 gauges. (Note that I do not include 12mm gauge, that is TT not 3mm)

 

They also offer a range of finescale wheels second to none for use in any gauge. Remember too that the wheel profile if almost the same as 2mm fine scale, apart from wheel thickness. A range of square centred wheels too is on the cards and expected shortly. It is a shame that they do not have a clue as how to blow their own trumpet and let the world know that what they have to offer is as good as what any other scale has.

 

As for 14.2 v 13.5. Well there are a lot of modellers out there that believe a an outside valve gear loco can be built to scale in 2mm fine scale,3mm 14.2 ,P4 – it cant. It is physically impossible. To say it is possible is to contradict Sir Isaac Newton!

 

The narrower the gauge the tighter the radius that can be negotiated. The difference between 14.2 and 13.5 is quite noticeable and if you are willing to give and take 13.5 wins hands down. But just who is going to argue that point? Very few, if any, have tried both.

 

13.5 makes much more sense than 14.2 in all respects but I would not expect this to be believed unless you had been there and got the T shirt. (there are those that rant on about 3mm dead scale or scale 3, they haven’t been there and don’t have the T shirt otherwise they would not rant on. I have been there and got the T shirt!)

 

If you don’t believe what I have said then go to www.georgem.co.uk and his blog and there you will see evidence of a very large 13.5 layout under construction, held up at the moment I believe for the lack of decent square centred wheels which should have been available 12 months or more ago but pig headedness got in the way, (I think they are now expected in May 15 or so I hear) anyway, here is a 3mm layout in 13.5 with locos and stock being specially designed for it and bigger than anything in 14.2.

 

3mm is held back by the very thing that keeps it afloat, Triang TT.

 

Pure 3mm is therefore restricted to those who can actually model not just talk a good job, you want to be a good modeller? Then try 3mm.

 

Harry

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I ....there are a lot of modellers out there that believe a an outside valve gear loco can be built to scale in 2mm fine scale,3mm 14.2 ,P4 – it cant. It is physically impossible. To say it is possible is to contradict Sir Isaac Newton!

With this fatuous sweeping statement, you appear to be denying the existence of countless P4 models with outside valve gear, as well as the work of several kit producers that makes this possible.

 

Speaking of denying existence, you wouldn't happen to be a member of the Plymouth Brethren, would you? It's just that they're in the news at the moment, something about bullying the Charity Commission into securing about £13m worth of tax relief.....

 

...go to www.georgem.co.uk and his blog and there you will see evidence of a very large 13.5 layout under construction, held up at the moment

I did. All I can see is a large grey blank when viewed on this i-Pad. Not a particularly good advert if we can't see anything.

 

...I believe for the lack of decent square centred wheels which should have been available 12 months or more ago but pig headedness got in the way, (I think they are now expected in May 15 or so I hear) anyway, here is a 3mm layout in 13.5 with locos and stock being specially designed for it and bigger than anything in 14.2.

Can't see a thing on that website. There are some photos of a 14.2mm gauge layout, though....

 

3mm is held back by the very thing that keeps it afloat, Triang TT.

Based on the tone of what I have read above, that's probably not the only thing.

 

Pure 3mm is therefore restricted to those who can actually model not just talk a good job, you want to be a good modeller? Then try 3mm.

No offence, but I think I'll stick to P4/S4.

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Of course you can build locos with outside valve gear in 14.2mm gauge and 2mm FS. I have done both as have plenty of other people. I haven't built any in P4 but there are many people who have. In 3mm scale the difference between 13.5mm and 14.2mm represents a scale 35mm on each side of the loco. Just a third of a millimetre to scale. There are plenty of ways to lose that from the depth of the valve gear if you need to and most of them less noticeable than reducing the track gauge. Isaac Newton was undoubtedly a brilliant man in many fields but I am not aware that railway modeling was one of them.

 

Why would a lack of square centered driving wheels hold up progress? Why would anyone want square centered wheels anyway? (I ask as the person responsible for the stepped axle in 3mm FS wheelsets, intended to give a more realistic appearance than the 1/8" axles that were originally planned.) I met George a few times during my time in the 3mm Society and he was a very accomplished modeler and never struck me as someone unable to quarter driving wheels.

 

14.2mm gauge is 5% wider than 13.5mm. Given that all the other dimensions in the standards are near identical that would suggest that a radius of 1000mm in 13.5mm gauge would be equivalent to 1050mm in 14.2mm, not that noticeable, I wouldn't have said. 

 

I agree it is a shame that more 3mm people are not active on the forum but self-publicity does not seem to be the forte of the Society. I don't think the website has changed since it was built to the same format as Clive Thompson's one when he owned 3SMR. I would also agree that as a modeling scale it has a lot going for it. Personally I think it is the best one out there if you are scratch-building.

Edited by Graham Hughes
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Hi all just a very quick note to say that the 3mm Society is still going strong and is in fact celebrating its 50 year anniversary this year, it is actually a scale society and not a gauge specific society. The society welcomes all 3mm modellers what ever gauge they choose to model in. Help and advice is available through the society e group and the local groups which exist around the country. Those of us who choose to model in this scale know that there are challenges but that is part of the attraction. Interested then join us you will be made very welcome.

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Oh dear I do seem to have struck a raw nerve! I thought that it was common knowledge that it was impossible to build a loco with Walschaerts motion to scale in the smaller scales but it would appear that is not the case. Well gents, I suggest that you sit down with a pencil and paper with a drawing of a life size loco fitted with Walshaerts motion, work out dimensions and then take a new sheet of paper (same pencil if you wish) and write down what your loco of what ever scale it is to be built needs to be able to achieve ie. Radius of minimum curve to be negotiated etc.

 

Then tell me what width your frames are set at, what horn blocks you are using ( being P4 guys I take it you are using horn blocks) what clearance do these need to work? How do you intend to fix the coupling rods to the wheels? You are compensating are you not? What about the slop to let you run around curves acceptable for a model rather than a prototype. What specialist material are you going to use for the extreme thinness of coupling and connecting rods you are ending up with? Are all these dimensions keeping you inside the scale envelope of the prototype?

 

 

You can't build a standard gauge locomotive to 3mm scale to run on 13.5mm gauge either. Its wheels will be too far apart to fit on the track.

 

Heck, I was a member of the 3mm Society for at least fifteen years, I produced a number of wagon kits for 3mm Scale, parts for the shop and other private projects and, as I said above still regard 3mm as my favourite scale for modeling in but you are doing a good job of putting me off. If your aim is, as you say, to promote 3mm as a modeling scale, I have to say you are going about it in a very odd way.

 

Incidentally, what on earth is the "scale envelope"?

 

Here's a 2mm FS loco to 9.42mm gauge. Perhaps you would care to point out its faults and where you could improve on it. You don't need to do any of the calculations you mention if you want to build one, Just send Bob Jones £170 and he will send you the kit.

92099+2.JPG

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A very interesting topic (even though I don't model in 3mm) - it's a shame that a very new member has chosen to make spurious, and even offensive comments: I wonder if someone has a hidden agenda?

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Agreed. I just hope the OP hasn't been put off a scale that deserves to be more popular. 14.2mm is a perfectly workable gauge. Looking at the members' layouts on the 3mm Society's website most are 12mm gauge, several are 14.2mm and I cant find one in 13.5mm gauge. 

To answer one of the questions in the OP that seems to have been missed, regarding wheels, as the profiles for 13.5mm and 14.2mm are the same the wheels that are suitable for one will be equally suitable for the other so there is no advantage for either gauge in terms of availability of wheels, (unless the supply of axles for one or the other runs out, I suppose.)

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Thanks again – I've not been put off and will be renewing my long lapsed 3mm Society membership. It may all end in tears but I have always loved the scale and have decided that now is the time to begin experimenting.

 

When you see the 2mm 9F photographed at eye level, to my eyes at least, it remains a quite staggering example of locomotive building.

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When you see the 2mm 9F photographed at eye level, to my eyes at least, it remains a quite staggering example of locomotive building.

 

And it goes round corners as well. Amazing really . . .

 

David

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I see that there will be four 3mm layouts at Ally Pally this weekend but no 3mm Society stand. Interestingly, to me at least, 3SMR will be at the show but on their site they state that 14.2mm is the 3mm equivalent of P4 whilst 13.5mm is the equivalent of EM but no rail profile is listed for the latter. It seems a minefield of information and some mis-information.

 

However, as Graham has kindly pointed out that the wheels are the same for 13.5 and 14.2 just on different axels it would suggest that 3SMR have made mistake with their definitions of the track they stock!

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For what it's worth.. I'm not up the standards of most 'fine scale' modellers.. but my first (and only so far) dabble in 3mm scale was in 14.2mm. I built a working layout, (handling track using code 60 BH on pcbs sleepers), a number of society kits using society wheelsets. My motive power was a Hallig motor bogie driving a scratch built Y6 body. All great fun. (http://mogtrains.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/elston-road-coming-along.html)

 

I really like 3mm. If I model British standard gauge again, it will be my first stop. 

 

My only stumbling block was building a loco - but seeing as I haven't built one in any scale (not counting white metal bodies on proprietary chassis), that's not too surprising. I just about managed to get a working 060 chassis running.

 

I did think about trying 12mm gauge next - the main reason being that it strikes me that it's easier to get the wheels etc. Also the society now provide 12mm gauge SQ wheelsets, which sound a lot easier that faffing about with the 'scale' wheels for a bodger like me.

 

Don't be put off by 'TT' - I'm pretty sure that John Sutton's Southwell Central is 12mm gauge and it looks very fine!

 

The Society has tons of stuff available, but I have to say that as a newcomer and not one of the old boys, I have found it very confusing to work out what I need, and where to order it from.. that's just me - compared to the 2mm FS society for example, the 'web presence' is scant.

 

Cannot comment on 13.5mm except that my understanding is that it is the "EM' of 3mm. There is track available, and I think, the SQ wheels too. 

 

Maybe it depends on what you want to build? Do you want a fine scale model? Do you want to build locos, and if so, what sort? etc..

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Like you I really like the scale, there is something that is 'just right' about it to my eyes. Although I collect the odd 4mm locomotive the space I currently have available is very restricting in 4mm, less so in 3mm.

 

Yes I want to fine scale model. I'm prepared for a challenge and am aware I may have many failures on the way. I might even give up. It might be that I do return to 4mm but for now I want to scratch the 3mm itch. It's inevitable that I will have to build my own stock – that's fine. Locomotives are challenge and if everything else is promising then I may have to resort to cheque book modelling to acquire a couple while I wrestle with my own. The concept would almost certainly be ex LBSC branch through station so tank engines and an 0-6-0 tender engine. For now I just want to dabble and see where it leads me.

 

I do very much agree about the relative lack of information.

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 It seems a minefield of information and some mis-information.

 

It is a bit of a minefield, not helped by the 3mm Society having so many different sets of standards with 3 gauges and Tri-ang, intermediate and fine standards. My personal view was that they should have stuck with one set for 12mm and one for 14.2mm as the "Society Standards" while acknowledging that Tri-ang TT and 13.5mm fell outside those. Instead of standardising, the "standards" seem to have attempted to cover every possible combination of track gauge and wheels profile. Personally I would suggest that if you want the ease of use of a "coarser" wheel profile go for the 12mm Intermediate and if you want closer to scale wheels and track go for 14.2mm Fine. Apart from the historic Tri-ang standards for those still running it, I really don't see the point in the others.

 

(Incidentally, I see 3SMR still have stocks of my 3mm wagon kits listed. I think somebody may have over ordered many years ago :) )

 

 

Edited by Graham Hughes
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I find the replies to this topic quite honestly astonishing!  I honestly thought it was common knowledge that locos with outside valve gear could not be built to absolute correct scale in 2mm and 3mm,  I cannot comment on P4 because I have not built a loco with outside valve gear in P4. but in 2mm and 3mm I agree with Mr Blackberry it is impossible. 

 

The 2mm 9F is no where near scale. How can it be when the 2mm finescale wheels used on it are 0.4mm too wide anyway? To a certain extent 3mm suffers the same problems. 

 

I have had the pleasure and it was a pleasure to construct a chassis for the said loco and I can assure you it was no where near absolute scale. It is a wonderful loco to build and the end result most satisfying but to scale - no. For a start the smaller bits of the motion are getting very near to etching extremes in 4mm let alone 2mm. It is a wonderful example of the kit manufactures art, if not the best,  but to scale - no way. 

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Does anybody here have experience of either or both? Would you care to comment of the relative merits of either approach? I read variously that 14.2 is actually an equivalent of EM in 4mm and not P4 – is this really the case? If working in 13.5mm are there less wheel sets/kits etc or is that not really a problem since all can be adapted?

 

If working in 14.2mm is the minimum radius extremely generous?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

I have built in all gauges in 3mm and it is without doubt the best of all the small scales to model in - that is if you enjoy scratch building, kit building or just like talking model railways. If you want to go out and buy RTR off the shelf then 3mm is not the scale for you, unlike 2mm - N gauge and P4 - 00 stuff. 

 

But to answer your initial question in straight forward terms:-

 

12MM = OO in 4MM

13.5 mm   = EM in 4mm 

14.125mm (commonly called 14.2 but actually 14.125) = P4 in 4mm

 

megroeg.m

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