The Engine Shed

[ikks]

There's a few things to smile about reading through the last couple of days worth of posts on this thread.

 

 

Secondly the LMS chaps have something to crow about, finally new tooling of the Duchess/ Coronation class. Not being a modeller of the LMS I wouldn't know how old the previous tooling was, but alongside Hornby's A3 and A4's it looks a little dated. I like the look of the Duchess and a newly tooled version might be enough to get Me to buy one. (Although I'm also tempted to buy one of the new MN's )

 

very sad..........thinking about a Merchant Navy!!!.............

 

Mike of the Stanier persuasion

[adb968008]

Good Moooooning from one of the herd.if you recall last year the abovementioned were abruptly deterred from the usual pillage by the sight of an opaque enclosure for exclusive use of Bachmann Collectors Club members.There was much wailing and gnashing of teeth by disgruntled non members as I recall......especially on this forum.But,as I noted at the time,as a member of "The Club" (an exclusive pedigree herd) I did enjoy the caviar blinis and Moët Chandon.....

I was quaffing the quails whilst drinking Lanson observing the riff raff through one way glass, and having microscopic views of USA tanks myself on the Bachmann stand last year, the riff raff were outside looking in... poor them.

I do hope this year they upgrade those sofas to three cushions this year, the Victoria sponge was fantastic, just needs a drop more framboise, one needs this to clear the palette when observing the SECR Birdcages.

:-)

 

After leaving the Bachmann stately reserve however I changed into my smelly beer tshirt, added a false moustache and grabbed my rucksack to blend into the herd once more.

Edited August 15, 2017 by adb968008

[Gilwell Park]

There's a few things to smile about reading through the last couple of days worth of posts on this thread.

 

The first is that there's another chance to get a Peckett, (I dithered when the first ones were released and obviously missed out)

 

Secondly the LMS chaps have something to crow about, finally new tooling of the Duchess/ Coronation class. Not being a modeller of the LMS I wouldn't know how old the previous tooling was, but alongside Hornby's A3 and A4's it looks a little dated. I like the look of the Duchess and a newly tooled version might be enough to get Me to buy one. (Although I'm also tempted to buy one of the new MN's )

 

Finally the discussion regarding the little 14xx, I am pleased that the majority of posters have seen the Hornby 14xx as a nice little engine that will look good on the layout at a reasonable price. It also bought a smile to my face seeing the rivet counters/ whingers and Moaners bought back down to Earth by the majority of you blokes. Crikey how can anyone really spare the time and energy to crack a sad about a model that now sits in the railroad range and is priced accordingly.

 

Should the Hornby be compared to the Dave Jones version ? - of course not.

Is there room for both? -  absolutely, the Hornby version is still a fine little model for many and the DJ model is there for those who want that little bit more and are prepared to pay for it. Both great models in their respective price and detail ranges.

At least the Hornby model has an ash pan!  Roger

[gwrrob]

At least the Hornby model has an ash pan!  Roger

 

and traction tyres....

[Ian Hargrave]

and traction tyres....

The tyre that dare not speak its name.......funny though how our HO cousins in Europe make them work.Whereas we "over here" declare jihad and rinse our collective mouths out before utterance of the words.But then,the likes of Roco,Fleischmann,Trix etc are massively heavy.....and heavily expensive.

[jjb1970]

The tyre that dare not speak its name.......funny though how our HO cousins in Europe make them work.Whereas we "over here" declare jihad and rinse our collective mouths out before utterance of the words.But then,the likes of Roco,Fleischmann,Trix etc are massively heavy.....and heavily expensive.

 

The price thing is no longer necessarily true. I bought a Trix Br193 a couple of weeks ago for £123, OK that was discounted but it wasn't a fire sale discount. The model is in the Trix entry range but the detail is good, finish superb and the body is metal. Running quality is excellent, smooth and silent. Some of the Roco older tooling which is still in their catalogue is no more expensive than much OO, OK it is older tooling but it is still very good. The LE Models E646 is a truly outstanding model and the SRP is pretty similar to OO. I've bought quite a few ACME coaches in recent months and some LS coaches and although not cheap they're not much more than Bachmann's new coaches.

[adb968008]

The tyre that dare not speak its name.......funny though how our HO cousins in Europe make them work.Whereas we "over here" declare jihad and rinse our collective mouths out before utterance of the words.But then,the likes of Roco,Fleischmann,Trix etc are massively heavy.....and heavily expensive.

"Heavily expensive" is one word too many these days. A lot of European models are the same or cheaper than their U.K. Counterparts, especially older toolings.

 

The secret to traction tyres, is that alone isn't the solution, Those European tender Drive locos come with a massive chunky weight on top of the tyres, and pickups on as many wheels as possible,with a degree of weight above the locos wheels too. Finally a very tight set of small gears to give traction to those wheels.

 

The reason it failed here in the UK, setting back tender drive benefits back a generation, was the use of two very large gears, instead of 4 or 6 smaller ones on that ring field motor, not giving those gears a box to stop the lateral motions, and the lack of a forementioned weight... that and the lack of loco weight and sloppy connections /minimal pickups between loco and tender.

If you look at some of the recent diesels (Dapols Western is an excellant example, but going further back so was Lima's class 20 in its day) of what difference this makes.. but the J94/14xx don't benefit as they haven't the weight, even if it has the gearing... but the Peckett.. oh my it packs a punch.

 

Admittedly I was one of that jaded generation, but seeing how prop shafts have given traction to the drivers on the loco I'm becoming a convert, though tender drive has its limits too, I've seen some interesting derailments, but they are generally fewer and farther between than my OO counterparts on the same track.

Edited August 16, 2017 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

Perhaps our European cousins make their traction tyres fit into the grooves properly and not stand proud of the wheel surface; I have never seen this on a UK model and hence am never particularly surprised that the pickup and slow speed performance is compromised, in every case, and without exception, that I have ever come across in nearly 60 years of association with modelling railways, and can be immediately and immeasurably improved by the tyre's removal.  My view on the subject have been often expressed and aired here; other views are available and may be more rational/justified/correct; I only have my own.

 

I am also yet to be convinced by tender drive, although these days the point is academic as I run a tank engine layout.  A loco should pull a tender, and a tender should not push (or pull) a loco; if this is not obvious and apparent the illusion is destroyed and the necessary smoke and mirrors that allow us to live with ourselves as modellers are not allowed to operate.  I know there are very good examples of continental tender drive locos, and the Roco S160 has been recently quoted. as one, but, sorry, don't buy it!

[Ian Hargrave]

,Mainstream models in HO certainly are more expensive as my weekly newsletters from Rainer of Innsbruck testify ,confirmed by a look at the front window of a model shop opposite St.Stephen's Cathedral in Vienna the week before Christmas .And yes,the system works well and always has.The reason it did not in OO is due to flawed design and inadequate materials.We forget that it is only within the last twenty years that OO r-t-r has achieved acceptable standards in both accuracy and haulage capacity.There are some still which struggle with a prototypical load.In general though we have come a long way.

 

The S 160 Roco drive design was I believe first implemented in the late 1990's...the DR 18 Reko being one of the first.

[adb968008]

,Mainstream models in HO certainly are more expensive as my weekly newsletters from Rainer of Innsbruck testify ,confirmed by a look at the front window of a model shop opposite St.Stephen's Cathedral in Vienna the week before Christmas .And yes,the system works well and always has.The reason it did not in OO is due to flawed design and inadequate materials.We forget that it is only within the last twenty years that OO r-t-r has achieved acceptable standards in both accuracy and haulage capacity.There are some still which struggle with a prototypical load.In general though we have come a long way.

 

The S 160 Roco drive design was I believe first implemented in the late 1990's...the DR 18 Reko being one of the first.

Just a note, the s160 doesn't have the shaft drive, the loco wheels are free wheeling. (It's powered by the same successful design going back to the 1970's).

Here is the s160, and a BR 35 with the shaft for comparison.

The rh109 made prior (2013) to the s160 also doesn't have it, but the BR 01.5 does, (2010?) so it would seem they stopped new tooled models with a shaft a few years back.

Edited August 16, 2017 by adb968008

[sidmouth]

Maybe I am a little strange ! but in a model railway I'm looking for something that looks right , when I look at the scene I don't see every last rivet and every microscopic detail faithfully rendered . I run trains for the enjoyment of running them . So £45 for a Hornby over versus a lot more for a DJM/Hattons becomes very tempting . the 14xx still looks good and perhaps shows how far advanced Airfix were . 

Edited August 16, 2017 by sidmouth

[The Johnster]

I don't have an issue with shaft drive from a tender loco to the loco wheels; the important thing is that the loco pulls the train by means of the driving wheels, and not the tender.  As a kid I had a Kitmaster GW prairie with a motorised van that pushed it around; my distress at such a sight led to many years of therapy and a horror of drive anywhere but from driving wheels, and led me to build my first working chassis for a later Airfix kit prairie with top hats, Romford wheels, gears and motor, and home made pickups which never really worked well, in my teens.

 

But I'm not sure I like that shaft drive in the photo of the Br 35; it is very visible (though perhaps not so bad when the loco and tender are sitting on the track), and will surely attract attention to itself as it revolves and catches the light.  Under the floor would be a better place for it, and I remember reading about some of Chris Pendleton's LNER pacifics years ago that employed such a system.

 

I agree that the Airfix/GMR 14xx was a game changer in it's day, let down ultimately by a flawed chassis design, not the only model from that era to be so hobbled as the Mainline split chassis locos were ultimately a failure as well.  I thought and still do that a properly designed and built split chassis has the potential for near perfect slow running as there are no pickup wipers to bear on the wheels and brake them, but the quartering and mazak rot issues that plagued the ML ones eventually led to not only their demise but the demise of the concept in British rtr modelling, which is IMHO a shame.  The 14xx, though, still looks pretty good above the footplate and carries a creditable amount of chassis detail.  I made some fairly strident comments about it recently which I have now retracted in the knowledge that Hornby's current iteration has a different chassis with wiper pickups, and may will buy one as, despite not being a Tondu loco and having to be a visitor from Llantrisant on my layout, it is difficult to leave it in the shops at £45 a pop.  If the chassis is any good, it might be a possible donor for a 517.

[Andy Hayter]

Well I have a Roco G10 and I am not at all sure that you could tell it is tender driven,

I also have a Lima Crab and the sight of it running round with the valve gear locked up does fully support loco drive.

[The Johnster]

I suspect that I am too far gone a case for tender drive.  Even if you could not tell that a loco was tender driven, if I knew it was I'd just be looking for the signs, and if there weren't any, I'd still know and not be able to un-know.  This is more my problem than that of a well build tender driven loco, and I remember occasional wheel locks on my Airfix 4F, Castle, Dean Goods and Hornby Black 5 as well (never owned a Lima crab).  I don't like tender driven locos and am glad that my modern modelling demands 100% tank engines.

[MGR Hooper!]

Incase no one has seen it...

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/the-right-maroon-plus-etched-crests-for-our-gwr-hst/

[Butler Henderson]

Think the maroon colour issue will still be questioned. Its all right looking at samples but the actual finish will be affected by scale and extent of varnish. Suspect no knows how the samples have altered in time, assuming they are varnished. In terms of scale the larger an area a colour is on the lighter it appears so applying a prototypically correct colour to a model will almost certainly result in a model appearing to be too dark in shade. Then their is the whole issue that paints were hand mixed until the mid 1960s resulting in slight variations in any case.

[tractionman]

I think the other thing revealed by the (elevated) second of the latest blog photos of 'Duchess of Atholl' is a fairly prominent seam along the top of the boiler, most obvious around by the dome.

 

I've still pre-ordered Atholl though!

 

all the best,

 

Keith

[Ian Hargrave]

Think the maroon colour issue will still be questioned. Its all right looking at samples but the actual finish will be affected by scale and extent of varnish. Suspect no knows how the samples have altered in time, assuming they are varnished. In terms of scale the larger an area a colour is on the lighter it appears so applying a prototypically correct colour to a model will almost certainly result in a model appearing to be too dark in shade. Then their is the whole issue that paints were hand mixed until the mid 1960s resulting in slight variations in any case.

 

The research and impeccable sources quoted must surely ease the pangs of the sceptics.Why ,when much resource and professional expertise has been expended on this...it is their job after all....must we seek to raise an issue ? The role and usefulness of photographic image dating from the 1950's and 1960's has been duly noted and dealt with.I am more than happy with what I have seen and read from Hornby R&D on this and trust them to deliver the goods with style and flair.As an 8 year old,I missed out on the Duchess Of Atholl,receiving Sir Nigel Gresley and his tinplate coaches instead (Selfridges,Oxford Street Christmas 1950 ). I intend shortly to make good my loss.

[PrestburyJack]

The research and impeccable sources quoted must surely ease the pangs of the sceptics.Why ,when much resource and professional expertise has been expended on this...it is their job after all....must we seek to raise an issue ? The role and usefulness of photographic image dating from the 1950's and 1960's has been duly noted and dealt with.I am more than happy with what I have seen and read from Hornby R&D on this and trust them to deliver the goods with style and flair.As an 8 year old,I missed out on the Duchess Of Atholl,receiving Sir Nigel Gresley and his tinplate coaches instead (Selfridges,Oxford Street Christmas 1950 ). I intend shortly to make good my loss.

 

Based on the above picture the Hornby colour appears far too maroon, it clearly should be grey

Edited August 27, 2017 by PrestburyJack

[The Stationmaster]

The research and impeccable sources quoted must surely ease the pangs of the sceptics.Why ,when much resource and professional expertise has been expended on this...it is their job after all....must we seek to raise an issue ? The role and usefulness of photographic image dating from the 1950's and 1960's has been duly noted and dealt with.I am more than happy with what I have seen and read from Hornby R&D on this and trust them to deliver the goods with style and flair.As an 8 year old,I missed out on the Duchess Of Atholl,receiving Sir Nigel Gresley and his tinplate coaches instead (Selfridges,Oxford Street Christmas 1950 ). I intend shortly to make good my loss.

 

Actually - and allowing for all sorts of things about how colour is rendered electronically - the new 'Duchess of Atholl' looks to be very similar in colour and tone to the old Hornby Dublo one (which had the distinct advantage of being able to be directly compared with the real thing).  

 

Presumably this new one is 2-rail?  

[The Blue Streak]

The chaps from Hornby have been reading RMWeb Methinks.

 

Good response regarding various worries and gnashing of teeth regarding colour and tone of Midland Pacific's. ( Just quietly, don't they look nice?)  

Edited August 27, 2017 by The Blue Streak

[The Johnster]

 

Based on the above picture the Hornby colour appears far too maroon, it clearly should be grey

 

 

Everything was grey in the 1950s; colour was not invented until 1964 by the Beatles and proper colour not until 2004 by Apple.

Edited August 27, 2017 by The Johnster

[Ian Hargrave]

The chaps from Hornby have been reading RMWeb Methinks.

 

Good response regarding various worries and gnashing of teeth regarding colour and tone of Midland Pacific's. ( Just quietly, don't they look nice?)

 

As I posted....impeccable sources.

[Guest Midland Mole]

I really think Hornby should be commended for coming up with the excellent idea of etched lettering for the new GWR livery, if only Bachmann had done something like that with the GWR 57 "Tintagel Castle"......ohh, wait....

 

Seriously though, nice to see they are following suit on that front.

 

Alex

 

P.S. I'm not getting involved with the Duchess paint/colour debacle!

[Freightliner Class 66]

just read the engine shed blog and think its a real shame Hornby had to dedicate so much of it to dealing with more color whinging. why cant anyone ever wait until they see a model in the flesh before claiming a color is wrong?

pictures never look like the real model. far too many armchair moaners who think they are reincarnated painters from crewe works!

Edited August 27, 2017 by Freightliner Class 66