Glyn Valley Tramway Infrastructure

[Andy M]

Nigel,

Can I add my appreciation for the time you have taken adding some of the most informative and interesting posts I have seen on RMWeb. Fascinating subject and an enjoyable read.

 

Regards,

Andy.

[bude_branch]

Colin / Andy.

 

Thanks for your comments, it's always nice to know if people have found a subject interesting.

[Jeff Smith]

Great job Nigel. I find it simultaneously fascinating and sad that it didn't survive, at least in part, to preservation.

[BR-Green]

Part 13 - A Few Further Thoughts

 

Whilst sorting out what to include for the GVT piece a number of items turned up which,

although of interest, didn't quite fit with the narrative so, in no particular order:

 

Sir Theodore Martin, principal promoter and for many years chairman of the Glyn Valley

Tramway, was also a close friend of Queen Victoria. At the time he lived in Berwyn, near

Llangollen, where his neighbour was none other than a certain Mr Beyer, of Beyer

Peacock & Co., Gorton, Manchester. So, it is perhaps hardly surprising, that the first of

the GVT's locomotives should have come from that firm.

 

Outside of railway circles, Sir Theodore is probably best remembered today for his five-

volume biography; The Life of His Royal Highness the Prince Consort. Written at the

Queen's behest, it was in recognition of this work that he received his knighthood.

 

Built to comply with the provisions of the 1885 Tramway Act, although designated as

0-4-2T's Sir Theodore (the first to be delivered on 17th October 1888) and Dennis were

specifically designed to run cab first. As you would expect for a Beyer Peacock design

they were simple, well designed, rugged machines, weighed 14 tons 11 cwt in full

working order and had a tractive effort of 7,500 lbs. The only aspect of the design to give

any trouble was the condensing apparatus, which usually resulted in the feedwater being

heated to such a degree that the injector invariably failed.

See: http://www.beyerpeacock.co.uk/history/History%20of%20Beyer%20Peacock.html

GVT 13-01 - Sir Theodore.jpg

Sir Theodore, with original cab, at Chirk circa 1920.

 

Top Tips for identifying Beyer Peacock Tram Engines from old photographs:

(1) The makers plates on Sir Theodore and Dennis were fitted to the front side sheets,

whereas Glyn had them attached to the cab; and

(2) the length of the nameplates varied significantly between the three locomotives.

 

GVT 13-02 - Dennis.jpg

Dennis, with modified cab and skirts up to reveal the motion, at Chirk circa 1919. The

hinged door at the front of the sidesheets was to allow access to the lubricators, motion

and condensing apparatus.

 

GVT 13-03 - Glyn.jpg

The first two locomotives having proved suitable a third, nominally to the same design,

was ordered from Beyer Peacock in December 1891. In actual fact Glyn, seen here at

Chirk circa 1920, was a foot longer than the other two and provided with a full cab from

the outset.

 

GVT 13-04 - Baldwin.jpg

The fourth and final locomotive, seen here at Chirk circa 1921, was an ex WD two foot

gauge 4-6-0T purchased second hand from the Ministry of Munitions Disposal Board in

1920. Nominally more powerful than the three Beyer Peacocks, the Baldwin as it was

always known, was re-gauged at Gorton prior to entering GVT service. Sad to say it

consistently failed to live up to expectations and although a handsome looking machine,

appears to have been universally disliked by everyone. Nonetheless, it still managed to

achieve some fairly high annual mileages.

 

GVT 13-05 - Sir Theodore.jpg

And to conclude motive power matters, a final picture of Sir Theodore wandering through

the woods on his way back down the bank towards Pontfaen to collect the second portion

of a Chirk bound train.

 

GVT 13-06 - First Class Coach (TR No 14) Midland Railway Carriage & Wagon Co.jpg

With regard to coaching stock, the GVT only possessed one First Class Coach, supplied by

the Midland Railway Carriage & Wagon Co., of Shrewsbury. Following closure of the line in

1935, this was one of the vehicles which found a new lease of life, before finally ending up as

a shed in the Vicarage Garden at Chirk, from where it was rescued by the Talyllyn Railway.

Subsequently restored to former glory and re-numbered as TR No 14, it can now be seen in

regular use between Tywyn and Nant Gwernol. See: http://www.talyllyn.co.uk/

 

The other big name in GVT history was Henry Dennis, who first became involved in 1868,

when he and his brother-in-law Glennie, were appointed as engineers to conduct a survey

for the new tramway. He later went on to become both director and engineer of the company

until his death on 24th June 1906. See: http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-DENN-HEN-1825.html

Whilst Sir Theodore's choice of neighbour may have unwittingly influenced locomotive policy,

the lasting legacy of Henry Dennis is to be found in the Tramway Buildings, the majority of

which were constructed with the distinctive Ruabon Reds, supplied by the Hafod Brick Works

of Dennis Ruabon [Ltd].

 

GVT 13-07 - Dennis of Ruabon.jpg

 

Now known as Ruabon Sales Ltd., the firm is still trading today and has the distinction of being

one of the last quarry tile manufacturers in the UK. See: http://ruabonsales.co.uk/

And finally a couple of hand tinted pictures from the early years:

GVT 13-08 - Chirk Fisheries.jpg

Chirk Fisheries (circa 1901), in which it is just possible to make out the tramway running along

the roadside verge. Anecdotal evidence suggests that live trout may have been shipped from

here by train in milk churns full of water from the River Ceiriog.

 

The business is still trading today, with a well-appointed shop selling a nice line in GVT and

other local postcards, as well as a comprehensive selection of fish and associated foodstuffs.

See: http://www.chirktroutfarm.co.uk/site/

GVT 13-09 - Pontfadog.jpg

Pontfadog as it was in the days of the horse tramway. The big white building next to the road

is now the village Post Office.

 

For anyone interested in learning more about this unique little line, The Glyn Valley Tramway

by WJ Milner, Oxford Publising Co.,1984; and Rails to Glyn Ceiriog, Parts 1 & 2 by WJ Milner

and Beryl Williams, Ceiriog Press, 2011 and 2015 respectively, are the definitive texts.

 

Ceiriog Memorial Institute in the High Street is also reputed to have a small collection of GVT

items on show. Unfortunately, my own visits have never seemed to coincide with the public

opening times and it might be worth telephoning on 01691-718076 to check before making

a visit. See: http://www.glynceiriog.org.uk/institute/

 

In conclusion, thanks are due to both Graham G Greasley and the Glyn Valley Tramway Trust

for allowing me to use a number of original photographs from their respective collections.

 

GVT 13-10 - McArdle of Chirk.jpg

And to end, for those interested in such things, McArdle of Chirk, Butcher & Pie Maker, comes

highly recommended - particularly by our Dog, who would like it to be known he is especially

keen on their sausages.

Would you know were I could get a picture of station and goods yard?

[bude_branch]

Would you know were I could get a picture of station and goods yard?

 

Which station and goods yard are you interested in ?

[BR-Green]

Which station and goods yard are you interested in ?

Any really

 

sorry for the late reply it didn't tell me that I got a new message

[bude_branch]

On 03/12/2016 at 09:35, BR-Green said:

Any really

 

I would suggest The Glyn Valley Tramway by WJ Milner, Oxford Publishing Co, ISBN 0-86093-286-9.  Although no longer in print, it should be possible to obtain a copy through your local Library.  Alternatively, second hand copies are often available (at a price) through the various railway book dealers.

Edited February 24, 2019 by bude_branch

[Jeff Smith]

That is a great book but if you just want pictures the Oakwood Press 'The Glyn Valley Tramway' by David Llewelyn Davies is a good small format book. Probably also out of print as well though.

[81E]

I have been gradually building a model based on the GVT for some years. On one side of the room is Glyn Ceiriog while the other will be a very simplified Chirk. So thanks to this thread I have nearly all the outstanding info I need to complete (Though it will take a few years yet to finish!

 

However, can anyone tell me what colour was the base of the GWR signal box. Photo's suggest it was brick and I understand it was a Makenzie-Holland box. Photos of Gobowen North seem to show a redish brick. but others in the area suggest a brown.

 

Any help would be appreciated

[81E]

Any really

 

sorry for the late reply it didn't tell me that I got a new message

Wrexham Library used to have copies of the OS 1:2500 (or whatever the imperial equivalent was) which has quite a bit of detail. This was my main source for Chirk. But I would recommend The Glyn Valley Tramway by WJ Milner as this provided the info for my version of Glyn.

 

 

[bude_branch]

On 21/01/2017 at 15:28, 81E said:

However, can anyone tell me what colour was the base of the GWR signal box. Photo's suggest it was brick and I understand it was a Makenzie-Holland box. Photos of Gobowen North seem to show a redish brick. but others in the area suggest a brown.

 

Unfortunately, I've not yet been able to track down a colour photograph of Chirk signal box, but I will keep trying.  In the meantime, if it helps, it's likely the signal box would have been built in a similar brick to that used for any contemporary GWR structure between Gobowen and Ruabon.

Edited February 24, 2019 by bude_branch

[5050]

Just found this thread and really like the photo 'tour' of the line.  I first got to know the Glyn Valley as a young teenager in the early 60's when we used to use the valley as one of our regular cycling routes.  In fact, it was one half of our club's 25 mile time trial course starting in Llangollen and turning in the road opposite the engine shed, each 'leg' being roughly six and a bit miles which made it relatively easy to calculate one's progress against the clock.  My mother told me that she rode the line in her youth as a day trip out from Wrexham but she couldn't remember any details.  Every time I rode the valley I tried to imagine where the rails actually went and always looked out for the bridge by the Cheshire Home.  I would have loved to have seen the trains 'in the flesh'.

 

When I got back into modelling around 1971/72 I had bought a copy of Boyd's 'Narrow Gauge Railways of North Wales' which features a section of the GVT.  This I devoured in depth (along with the other lines as well!) and discovered that the original intention was for a standard gauge line from Ellesmere.  This was all I needed to provide a 'might have been' history for my first OO layout 'Preesgwyn' which surmised an Ellesmere and Glyn Valley railway station very close to Weston Rhyn.  This was initially a terminus as the company allegedly ran out of funds but in various incarnations it became a through station, then a junction for a branch to Erbistock and finally as a station on a through line joining the GWR line from Ruabon to Dolgelley.  This latter version conveniently tended to forget the almightly tunnelling that would have been necessary above Glyn Ceiriog! 

 

When I converted to P4 I built another version of 'Preesgwyn' which was on the circuit in the early/mid 80's (there was also a very short lived - one exhibition! - version where the P4 Preesgwyn became Glyn Ceiriog but it didn't really work as a layout and was not followed up) and then in the mid/late 90's I built 'Lower Pandy' as a through 'station' with localised quarries, tarmac plant, woollen mill etc. providing traffic along with through ballast and ore trains to Hendre.

 

I am currently considering another opus which may well be a standard gauge version of Hendre to complete the set!  I realise that all this may not satisfy the GVT purist but the Glyn Valley is one of my favourite locations and I find the railway and industrial history fascinating.  I wish I lived nearer these days so I could visit more often and really hope the efforts to get trains running again pays off.

[DLT]

Fascinating thread that I've not come across before.  Thanks very much for all the detail.

Cheers, Dave.

[Andrew Young]

Thanks for posting these interesting photos. The Glyn Valley is the one line that could tempt me to model a prototypical railway. Would've loved to have seen the GVT operate in its heyday, the closest I can get is travelling on one of the carriages on the Talyllyn and Milner's excellent books.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[Hando]

It is a bit of conflict of interest with two societies wanting to use the route (remember the dog's mess with the WHR, where the Ffestiniog built a corporate monopoly, whilst the WHHR wanted the line to be preserved)...

Things look better for this line though.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am sure that I was not following this thread before. But the new RMWeb software has decreed that I am.

 

And I am glad about that. Very interesting thread on a line which, I now know, was so different to other UK narrow-gauge lines. It is far more like some of the French and Belgian roadside railways such as the TA which Roger Farnworth has been blogging about.

[Jeff Smith]

My 0-16.5 GVT layout has reached a serious planning stage and the structures I will need to build are the Hand Lane bridge, the Chirk station building and the Chirk carriage shed (the one with the turntable in front).  Drawings of all three would be great but the first two I can probably estimate from photos, however the carriage shed elevation does not show on any photos I've seen.  If anyone knows the overall dimensions or has a drawing I would be most grateful.

[Nearholmer]

I think that the site has recently been "de-forested", so you might be able to get dimensions from remaining foundations.

[DLT]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I think that the site has recently been "de-forested", so you might be able to get dimensions from remaining foundations.

http://www.glynvalleytramwaytrust.co.uk/GVTT_news.html

[DLT]

Also, the original poster stated that Chirk station building was in the same style as Pontfadog, as drawn in the first post.  Therefore those drawings would help with estimating the size.

[Jeff Smith]

Thanks, yes I'll use that drawing.

[Jeff Smith]

So, can someone explain whether there are two GVT trusts, one at each end of the line?

[DLT]

Some good (colour) photos of Chirk station on this site:  https://www.flickriver.com/groups/glynvalleytramway/pool/random/

Including an almost front-on platform elevation of the station building from which dimensions can be taken by brick-counting.

And one of the front end of the carriage shed.

[Jeff Smith]

Thanks for the link.

[sir douglas]

at least some years ago there were 2 seperate groups because they had opposing views on the rebuilding, 1 wanted to re lay to the proper 2'4" while the other wanted 2'6" for cheaper and more available stock sourcing. i dont know what the situation is now