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Rapido/Locomotion Models GNR Stirling Single


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So, the availability issue is very clear.

 

The model is Pre-order only for the time being.

They will only be making enough Sterling Singles to meet the pre-orders.

 

 

 

 

Err no. See the interview from about 7'50". Brian Greenwood says that:

  • A fixed number of models have been ordered from Rapido
  • Anyone who pre-orders is guaranteed a model

So one of two things can happen, either:

  • if lots of people pre-order the list will be closed when the full batch has been sold.

or:

  • if there is any of the first batch remain after the pre-orders have been dealt with, then they will be sold in the Locomotion shop.

Since we don't know the size of the first batch and Locomotion don't know the number of pre-order they will get, anything else is speculation.

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Err no. See the interview from about 7'50". Brian Greenwood says that:

  • A fixed number of models have been ordered from Rapido
  • Anyone who pre-orders is guaranteed a model

 

 

Not quite; Brian said that "agreement has been reached with Rapido to produce a specific volume as the first batch" which can mean that they will order a specific number (based on pre-order volume) rather than the volume having already been decided. I would imagine a minimum number has been posited to ensure that the pricing can be determined but it means a greater quantity could be manufactured if required. Hypothetically speaking if there were pre-orders for 2,392 locos as a commissioning party it would be sensible to order 2,500 to cover any replacements and satisfy any last minute decisions to purchase. I would rather see the margin for those additional 108 locos go to the museum than see additional margins go to 108 speculators.

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Great video Andy, very interesting, and the sound's not too bad.

 

I liked the APT-E video on the other thread, better sound quality too. Maybe you could ask Legomanbiffo to do a sound file for the interviews too  :jester:

 

Tom

Edited by Dominion
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Err no. See the interview from about 7'50". Brian Greenwood says that:

  • A fixed number of models have been ordered from Rapido
  • Anyone who pre-orders is guaranteed a model

 

 

Not quite; Brian said that "agreement has been reached with Rapido to produce a specific volume as the first batch" which can mean that they will order a specific number (based on pre-order volume) rather than the volume having already been decided. I would imagine a minimum number has been posited to ensure that the pricing can be determined but it a greater quantity could be manufactured if required......

 

Bill, I stand corrected on part of my comment.

As Andy has said, Brian says that agreement has been made on producing a specific volume.

That volume may be fixed, a minimum or a range from the viable minimum to the point of maximum acceptable risk?

 

The fact remains, at the present time, the only way you can guarantee having one of these models is to pre-order.

If you don't, there's a chance you will be disappointed.

 

 

.

 

 

.

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......To be honest, for those considering purchase as an investment (don't criticise me for that, money's good as anyone's) it really needs to be a clear and concise offer at launch. Not really good enough and a politician type answer. My purchasing decision 'will not yet be taken' until we get clarification. I don't want to get stung again, as I said before.

 

While I personally don't think there's anything wrong with speculating, or viewing a purchase as an investment (no matter how wise or misguided); I do feel the onus is on you to make the purchasing decision and not the seller.

 

If you are viewing a purchase in those terms, the risk is entirely on your own head and you cannot expect Locomotion or Rapido to feather nest your own personal agenda.

 

I'm sorry to say that if you get your fingers burnt, it's tough luck. That's your look out.

Let the buyer beware.

 

 

 

 

.

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There's at least one individual on here that's complained bitterly about the prices of new tooling "yet to arrive" Bachmann models that will cost far less than this loco and predicted the "death" of the hobby, yet he's happily slapped his pre-order in for this Stirling Single at approx. £200 !!

 

And on a different note, the chassis mechanism will be interesting.  There's been a bit of a thread over on MREmag about the difficulty of getting an 0-4-4 and 0-4-2 tank mechanism to work well and "pull the skin off a rice pudding".  I know this isn't an 0-4-4 tank, but Triang's old M7 0-4-4T wouldn't pull anything, yet the chassis was from their L1 4-4-0 loco (but turned round) which had no haulage problems !  The problem seems to be getting enough weight over the driving wheels coupled with the strength of the springing of the bogie.  Also, the Airfix GWR 0-4-2 tank was a notoriously bad runner ! 

 

I'm not saying it won't work, I'm sure it will, but it doesn't look like there's a lot of room in the right place for a lot of weight, so the chassis design will be interesting.  All this from a company that doesn't usually produce steam loco chassis ?, maybe the rear "pony truck" will be powered too !  

Edited by Combe Martin
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If there is a moral to this entire story it is this; if you want a model of the Stirling Single pre-order it or be prepared to be disappointed. Rapido got burned once on overproduction of a model and they won't let it happen again.

 

Cheers,

 

David

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There's at least one individual on here that's complained bitterly about the prices of new tooling "yet to arrive" Bachmann models that will cost far less than this loco and predicted the "death" of the hobby, yet he's happily slapped his pre-order in for this Stirling Single at approx. £200 !!

 

And on a different note, the chassis mechanism will be interesting.  There's been a bit of a thread over on MREmag about the difficulty of getting an 0-4-4 and 0-4-2 tank mechanism to work well and "pull the skin off a rice pudding".  I know this isn't an 0-4-4 tank, but Triang's old M7 0-4-4T wouldn't pull anything, yet the chassis was from their L1 4-4-0 loco (but turned round) which had no haulage problems !  The problem seems to be getting enough weight over the driving wheels coupled with the strength of the springing of the bogie.  Also, the Airfix GWR 0-4-2 tank was a notoriously bad runner ! 

 

I'm not saying it won't work, I'm sure it will, but it doesn't look like there's a lot of room in the right place for a lot of weight, so the chassis design will be interesting.  All this from a company that doesn't usually produce steam loco chassis ?, maybe the rear "pony truck" will be powered too !  

There's no doubt about it, this locomotive has a number of engineering challenges.

 

The first few that spring to mind are:

i The large driving wheels and getting both the drive to them and enough weight over them with a slimline boiler and open space beneath the footplate.

ii Next to no clearance for the front bogie.

iii The splashers don't lend themselves to being moulded from plastic.

 

Andy's video indicates that these problems have been given some thought already but does not reveal the current thinking.  It will be fascinating to see how they are resolved.

Edited by teaky
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There's no doubt about it, this locomotive has a number of engineering challenges.

 

The first few that spring to mind are:

i The large driving wheels and getting both the drive to them and enough weight over them with a slimline boiler and open space beneath the footplate.

ii Next to no clearance for the front bogie.

iii The splashers don't lend themselves to being moulded from plastic.

 

Andy's video indicates that these problems have been given some thought already but does not reveal the current thinking.  It will be fascinating to see how they are resolved.

Some suggestions

 

1. Lead/Mazak either side of Driving wheel filling boiler , motor between frames underslung gearbox or a decent tender motor drive via a cardan shaft to the gearbox in the loco. Most probable a one piece chassis the length of the boiler / smokebox casting , incorporating a space for the motor/gears.

 

2. Treat as a 0-8-0 or 4-4-0 cant see it getting around anything under 2nd radius and sold as such. Bachmann have done Emily as a 4-4-0 and that works drink through the driver and the rear pony wheels . The latest Atlantic has been done with undersize wheels which will help on bends. I can see many people expecting to run more than a couple of coaches behind No1.

 

3. Etched splashers.

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If there is a moral to this entire story it is this; if you want a model of the Stirling Single pre-order it or be prepared to be disappointed. Rapido got burned once on overproduction of a model and they won't let it happen again.

 

Cheers,

 

David

Rapido wont have the problem , these are the NRM 's property. All a bit vague as to how many are being produced as no cut off date for orders announced so far . 

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Andy, you turned that edit around nice and quick. 

 

Certainly look into the Zoom H2H. I use it all the time (which explains my little hand clap at the start of our piece... a good way to sync sound and vision in post). Quality is top notch, and its build quality is fantastic, and yet it wont break the bank... especially if the Magazine pick up the bill ;-)

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Andy, you turned that edit around nice and quick. 

 

Certainly look into the Zoom H2H. I use it all the time (which explains my little hand clap at the start of our piece... a good way to sync sound and vision in post). Quality is top notch, and its build quality is fantastic, and yet it wont break the bank... especially if the Magazine pick up the bill ;-)

 

Yeah, I'd recommend Zoom recorders as well. My company use the H4N when recording videos because not only can you use the two built in mic to record stereo ambient sound, but also attach two additional microphones (depending on the situation we use rifle mics or lapel mics). We then use a plugin called pluraleyes, which uses the in-camera sound to sync the separately recorded sound (the automated equivalent of using a hand clap to sync things manually). 

 

Well worth the expense in my opinion!

 

Back on topic though: Rapido have said that they'll be putting some more details in their next newsletter, which will hopefully clear up some of these questions. Whilst I'm very excited about this as well, I don't think waiting a little while to get some more details is too much to ask. Pre-orders aren't going to close in the next week or two, so I'm certainly not worrying about missing out if I wait a few more days... 

 

I am very exited though!

Edited by iamjamie
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Some suggestions

 

1. Lead/Mazak either side of Driving wheel filling boiler , motor between frames underslung gearbox or a decent tender motor drive via a cardan shaft to the gearbox in the loco. Most probable a one piece chassis the length of the boiler / smokebox casting , incorporating a space for the motor/gears.

 

2. Treat as a 0-8-0 or 4-4-0 cant see it getting around anything under 2nd radius and sold as such. Bachmann have done Emily as a 4-4-0 and that works drink through the driver and the rear pony wheels . The latest Atlantic has been done with undersize wheels which will help on bends. I can see many people expecting to run more than a couple of coaches behind No1.

 

3. Etched splashers.

4. Tender drive.

 

I'll get my coat.

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I understand from the video it's exclusive but not limited ;) BUT they will only produce guided by pre orders so don't expect loads in the shop. If you definitely want one pre order, if not you takes yer chance so don't moan if it's sold when you decide. If there's lots of interest then they may do a second batch but there's hints of options so maybe another of the class?

All seems clear to me and yes I will order one as it's gorgeous and I hope they do Hardwicke next and might go a bit mad if they do ;)

Edited by PaulRhB
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Does any one with previous experience of Locomotion Models know if you can change your delivery address at a later date? I'd love to pre-order it, but I'll be in a different house (with more room for a model railway of course!).

Yes if you email queries@locomotionmodels.com with your new address I will change the order and confirm by return.

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Interesting to see Mr Kohler now running the show at Locomotion Models.  Only time will tell if he will maintain the reputation for quality that has (deservedly, IMO) been built up by the 'National Collection in Miniature' range. Personally, I've a nagging suspicion that all those years at Hornby, during which time he would have had a hand in some pretty shockingly bad products(*), will not be lightly cast off. I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong.

 

Cheers
Adrian

 

(*) And some good ones too!  However, a man who could stand idly by while R873, R872 and R9231 were released to an unsuspecting public will need to be kept under close scrutiny....:)

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Interesting to see Mr Kohler now running the show at Locomotion Models.  Only time will tell if he will maintain the reputation for quality that has (deservedly, IMO) been built up by the 'National Collection in Miniature' range. Personally, I've a nagging suspicion that all those years at Hornby, during which time he would have had a hand in some pretty shockingly bad products(*), will not be lightly cast off. I sincerely hope I'm proven wrong.

 

Cheers

Adrian

 

(*) And some good ones too!  However, a man who could stand idly by while R873, R872 and R9231 were released to an unsuspecting public will need to be kept under close scrutiny.... :)

Nothing like a nice bit of negativity before bedtime.....

 

Are you an Optimist, a pessimist or are they all out to get you?

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Speculation. A divisive subject.

 

Political rant follows. To avoid it, jump to *** below or skip this post!

 

Under certain circumstances of imperfect markets, it can be argued that a degree of arbitrage is helpful in oiling the wheels. Again under certain circumstances, futures speculations can even out market fluctuations. But, even then, a high price is or can be paid by those not privy to the market. In extreme cases it leads to the starvation and food riots across the developing world as we've seen in the past couple of years.

 

In general, spivs and profiteers, who are people who rely on or even generate imperfect markets, are despised, for good reason (particularly but not only if the goods involved, such as food, are more critical than model engines). In many countries, especially but by no means only in war time, it's a death sentence.

 

We live in a liberal, or neo-liberal, society: speculation is permitted, under considerable protest. However; restricting a market to help speculators (as opposed to, say, protecting patents) is almost universally a civil or criminal offence in most ordered countries. Again, in China, it can be punished by death. That, living in a neo-liberal society, we suffer an increasingly insoucient, divided and economically inefficient society, may have come to your notice; some of the more left-politically driven amongst us may feel aware of an unhealthy link between a neo-liberal government (which claims to be deristricting the economy) and precisely those speculators benefitting from restrictions, including speculatory, which remain untouched.

 

*** So. What to make of admitted, if not proud, speculators who want to see the output of models trains restricted, so that people who want the models go without in favour of those who want to make a profit? Well, nobody is going to starve or go without necessities as a result, so a death sentence would probably be a bit ott.

 

But I hope that in my poor way I have demonstrated why I don't find speculators attractive. And I hope that some people, reading my post here, may agree with me that another post, seeking speculative restriction of our little market, has actually been profoundly political, as well as provocative and - frankly, to me - offensive. And, by the way, I didn't like spivs long before I understood why, which is why there are one or two shops I won't touch, even though it means cutting off my nose...

 

PostScript: it would be quite wrong to take my rant here as in any way seeking to deny anyone's right to have a diametrically opposed opinion to mine, or to try to stop them from expressing it. But, if you express provocative opinions, even unitentionally, you may expect that someone like me will rise to the bait. I hope, of course, that you will either argue your corner or concede. Or you can just ignore me, of course!

 

Edited for typos.

Edited by SamTom
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I've seen some German engines done with tender drive that have been superb. Not so far fetched as you might think.

 

Cheers,

 

David

Well said that man! ! know that it's heresy generally speaking on this forum to advocate tender drive but both Roco and Fleischmann use it very effectively. Roco use a system whereby the motor unit is situated in a heavy tender unit which powers that and the driving wheels of the loco body via a connecting cardan shaft.Admiration of the Roco 18 201 model has been  posted a few times recently on this forum.That is an example of such a drive system.

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Tender drive is fine for pulling power but it means there's no way to capture the possibility of wheelslip. There's something quite fun about putting a loco on the edge and starting away a train realistically actually 'driving it', we could put a nice heavy twin bogie drive in the first coach too ;)

Models always pull more, easily, than the real locos do even up trainset gradients. No I'd rather have the traction limited to realistic levels on the average layouts tight curves and 1:30 hills as in miniature it will be much heavier than the real one.

Edited by PaulRhB
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I'm afraid that was as clear as mud as to the format of the offer. Pre-orders, quantity limits, re-runs etc.

Mr Greenwood said at 8 mins in: "decision not yet taken". To be honest, for those considering purchase as an investment (don't criticise me for that, money's good as anyone's) it really needs to be a clear and concise offer at launch. Not really good enough and a politician type answer. My purchasing decision 'will not yet be taken' until we get clarification. I don't want to get stung again, as I said before.

The APT is clear. Why not this one? Just say one way or the other. To mind this means there will be reruns but they don't want to say too loudly in case it slows or devalues the initial demand. So why not just say this is not limited on the website instead of being vague?

Today IF model railways are an investment, it is a very short term one. For the Single to gain value, there would have to be a large demand after release that Locomotion cannot fulfil. You would need many buyers willing to spend more than £200 and few other sellers on ebay. Personally I am not that optimist that locomotion will fail to fill demand result in a gold rush on ebay...

 

As the years go by, the number of railway modelers could drop, the number of Stirlings appearing on the market could increase as people pass away and siblings wish to dispose of them. I am not confident.

 

Did that stop me buying one ? No,

Edited by JSpencer
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Apologies for the sound quality from filming in a busy museum hall (I just don't have the right mics for that kind of work) so you may need to tweak your speaker volume. There's also some RF interference from the electronics in the scanning section I'm afraid.

Worth it though to capture the event, another vote to get a couple of mikes though as there was some really good stuff in there and I particularly enjoyed Craig's chat about the scanning. It's like the good 'making of' bits on a DVD ;)
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Well said that man! ! know that it's heresy generally speaking on this forum to advocate tender drive but both Roco and Fleischmann use it very effectively. Roco use a system whereby the motor unit is situated in a heavy tender unit which powers that and the driving wheels of the loco body via a connecting cardan shaft.Admiration of the Roco 18 201 model has been  posted a few times recently on this forum.That is an example of such a drive system.

Several times by me. The drive system does indeed work superbly.

Unfortunately the reputation of Hornby and Airfix tender drive units seem to prevent any one else taking the risk of going down that particular road in respect of UK models.

In N or 2mm Fine Scale there do not seem to be the same restraints.

For a single it could well be the ideal way to go.

Bernard

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